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PapaShogun


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NcFinest9erFan wrote:
I guess I'll post this here but the great Dwight Clark just announced that he has ALS.

http://debartoloholdings.com/dwightclark.html


Sad. May or may not be related to his football days. Could just be genetic right? Anyways, I can't imagine a worse disease except maybe Alzheimer's.

Well, almost a year ago The End of Life Option Act went into effect in California. Assisted suicide. Honestly if I was in Dwight's position I don't think I would hesitate. I'd rather go out on my own terms than just potentially end up like Steve Gleason. Wouldn't want to go through that mental and physical anguish.

A 41 year old woman who had ALS held a "going away party" last year in California under the new act.

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/08/12/woman-holds-euthanasia-party-before-killing-herself-in-an-assisted-suicide/
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This definitely sucks for Clark. This is about as undignified an end a human life can have. I don't know about the relation to football, though. Degenerative diseases are genetic. Maybe he had the disposition, and it was triggered by hits to the head, but it seems like a stretch. In all likelihood, football or not, he would have had ALS anyway. Maybe it does have an influence on the timeline. Maybe being an athlete delayed it. Maybe playing football accelerated it. But I have my doubts about it causing it. I mean, did the violence of playing first base trigger Lou Gehrig's Lou Gehrig's disease? I just think it's a popular way of thinking among retired NFL players to blame every health issue on getting hit during their playing days. I think they're still looking for more compensations for retired players, especially for those suffering ailments related to the game, so any public statement blaming the NFL for their health adds pressureon the NFL to share a mere fraction of their immense profits in helping their former players. I do hope the league eventually does more, and I understand why Clark would use his ALS to bring the focus back on retired players' health issue, but it just sounds doubtful to me. This being said, I'm no doctor, but I play one on radio (I don't have the good looks to play one on tv).
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Forge


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Forge wrote:
rudyZ wrote:


So, if Kap gained an advantage in the passing game from his ability to run, why didn't he take advantage of it? Or if he did, it just means that he was even worse overall at reading a defense. What happens if he injures a knee and can't run anymore?


Again, what does it matter if the offense is just as effective, if not more so? It seems like to me that the hate comes from him just not playing a style that everyone wants him to play. If he was taking advantage of it, yes, that means he may be he's not naturally as gifted throwing the football, but it doesn't matter because his overall skillset yields the results of what Hoyer gets...and that's without adding in what he is adding on the ground.

What happens if Hoyer tears a rotator cuff? That's just a silly argument - any quarterback can get hurt at any point in time. Kaep hasn't injured his knee yet, so this is completely irrelevant. If or when he does, then that will change the eval. But it hasn't, and you can't just expect it or use that to your advantage in an argumrent

Quote:
Personally, I want an athletic QB who can run. I don't want an athletic QB who wants to run. Aaron Rodgers takes what the defense gives him, and it obviously doesn't deter from his ability to pass the ball. I think Kap will resort to running way too early in the decision making process, because running is something he's comfortable doing, it's something he wants to do. It's his decision process. And that's the reason why I think he's a limited QB.


Don't disagree with that, but you take what you can get. Both of these quarterbacks are limited in what they do as passers...it's not like Hoyer isn't just as limited in Kaepernick.



The rotator cuff example has nothing to do with it. Every QB cannot succeed without his throwing shoulder. But plenty of QBs will still be able to play even with reduced mobility, with reduced speed and a heavy brace on their knee. With Kap, you'd lose most of what makes him somewhat acceptable. Hoyer, who is not athletic to begin with, wouldn't see much of a difference. Defenses wouldn't stop fearing his running to focus more on his passing. If Kap had been a more accomplished passer, then yes, his running would have been a valuable weapon. He'd force opponents to play complex coverage, and then he could take advantage of that attention to gain yards with his legs. It shouldn't be the other way around, where his legs get the attention in order to soften the coverage. That's the way college football works. The NFL is far less forgiving.


No fair that you can make up imaginary, hypothetical injuries to try and prove a point and I can't. Kaep doesn't have a bum knee, and his legs still work fine. If he happened to get hurt in the legs, there's no saying how his passing would change. As I said before, perhaps he is getting a benefit in the passing game from his running, but as you alluded to, perhaps he hasn't been taking advantage of it. In which case, you're left with a passer who has been pretty similar to Hoyer all his career as we have already shown through the numbers....so not sure that there's much of a difference there. All depends on whether or not he gains an advantage from his legs or gains one but doesn't utilize it. But again, completely irrelevant since he doesn't have this hypothetical injury.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Forge wrote:
rudyZ wrote:


So, if Kap gained an advantage in the passing game from his ability to run, why didn't he take advantage of it? Or if he did, it just means that he was even worse overall at reading a defense. What happens if he injures a knee and can't run anymore?


Again, what does it matter if the offense is just as effective, if not more so? It seems like to me that the hate comes from him just not playing a style that everyone wants him to play. If he was taking advantage of it, yes, that means he may be he's not naturally as gifted throwing the football, but it doesn't matter because his overall skillset yields the results of what Hoyer gets...and that's without adding in what he is adding on the ground.

What happens if Hoyer tears a rotator cuff? That's just a silly argument - any quarterback can get hurt at any point in time. Kaep hasn't injured his knee yet, so this is completely irrelevant. If or when he does, then that will change the eval. But it hasn't, and you can't just expect it or use that to your advantage in an argumrent

Quote:
Personally, I want an athletic QB who can run. I don't want an athletic QB who wants to run. Aaron Rodgers takes what the defense gives him, and it obviously doesn't deter from his ability to pass the ball. I think Kap will resort to running way too early in the decision making process, because running is something he's comfortable doing, it's something he wants to do. It's his decision process. And that's the reason why I think he's a limited QB.


Don't disagree with that, but you take what you can get. Both of these quarterbacks are limited in what they do as passers...it's not like Hoyer isn't just as limited in Kaepernick.



The rotator cuff example has nothing to do with it. Every QB cannot succeed without his throwing shoulder. But plenty of QBs will still be able to play even with reduced mobility, with reduced speed and a heavy brace on their knee. With Kap, you'd lose most of what makes him somewhat acceptable. Hoyer, who is not athletic to begin with, wouldn't see much of a difference. Defenses wouldn't stop fearing his running to focus more on his passing. If Kap had been a more accomplished passer, then yes, his running would have been a valuable weapon. He'd force opponents to play complex coverage, and then he could take advantage of that attention to gain yards with his legs. It shouldn't be the other way around, where his legs get the attention in order to soften the coverage. That's the way college football works. The NFL is far less forgiving.


No fair that you can make up imaginary, hypothetical injuries to try and prove a point and I can't. Kaep doesn't have a bum knee, and his legs still work fine. If he happened to get hurt in the legs, there's no saying how his passing would change. As I said before, perhaps he is getting a benefit in the passing game from his running, but as you alluded to, perhaps he hasn't been taking advantage of it. In which case, you're left with a passer who has been pretty similar to Hoyer all his career as we have already shown through the numbers....so not sure that there's much of a difference there. All depends on whether or not he gains an advantage from his legs or gains one but doesn't utilize it. But again, completely irrelevant since he doesn't have this hypothetical injury.



The difference is that your hypothetical injury affects all QBs equally, not just Hoyer, and mine affects QBs like Kap more than others. When Russell Wilson played with a high ankle sprain, he was visibly and statistically less effective. When Kap played with a foot injury in 2014 (foot, was it?), he was visibly and statistically less effective. Tom Brady and Big Ben played with knee braces and weren't dramatically impacted. I think that has to come into consideration when you're signing a QB. Are you willing to take on that risk, and are you confident he can be successful even if he has to play through an injury? Players get injured in the NFL, you have to consider it.

Now, we're talking about a stopgap QB in a rebuilding year, so yeah, maybe we could take the risk and it wouldn't matter. But then there are the intangibles. Kap vs Hoyer on being a teammate, on understanding and running the offense, leadership, demeanor on and off the field, etc. Kynch and Kylo met with Kap, and Kylo already knew Hoyer, and they came to the conclusion that Hoyer brought more to the team in its rebuilding effort than Kap.
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Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Forge wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Forge wrote:
rudyZ wrote:


So, if Kap gained an advantage in the passing game from his ability to run, why didn't he take advantage of it? Or if he did, it just means that he was even worse overall at reading a defense. What happens if he injures a knee and can't run anymore?


Again, what does it matter if the offense is just as effective, if not more so? It seems like to me that the hate comes from him just not playing a style that everyone wants him to play. If he was taking advantage of it, yes, that means he may be he's not naturally as gifted throwing the football, but it doesn't matter because his overall skillset yields the results of what Hoyer gets...and that's without adding in what he is adding on the ground.

What happens if Hoyer tears a rotator cuff? That's just a silly argument - any quarterback can get hurt at any point in time. Kaep hasn't injured his knee yet, so this is completely irrelevant. If or when he does, then that will change the eval. But it hasn't, and you can't just expect it or use that to your advantage in an argumrent

Quote:
Personally, I want an athletic QB who can run. I don't want an athletic QB who wants to run. Aaron Rodgers takes what the defense gives him, and it obviously doesn't deter from his ability to pass the ball. I think Kap will resort to running way too early in the decision making process, because running is something he's comfortable doing, it's something he wants to do. It's his decision process. And that's the reason why I think he's a limited QB.


Don't disagree with that, but you take what you can get. Both of these quarterbacks are limited in what they do as passers...it's not like Hoyer isn't just as limited in Kaepernick.



The rotator cuff example has nothing to do with it. Every QB cannot succeed without his throwing shoulder. But plenty of QBs will still be able to play even with reduced mobility, with reduced speed and a heavy brace on their knee. With Kap, you'd lose most of what makes him somewhat acceptable. Hoyer, who is not athletic to begin with, wouldn't see much of a difference. Defenses wouldn't stop fearing his running to focus more on his passing. If Kap had been a more accomplished passer, then yes, his running would have been a valuable weapon. He'd force opponents to play complex coverage, and then he could take advantage of that attention to gain yards with his legs. It shouldn't be the other way around, where his legs get the attention in order to soften the coverage. That's the way college football works. The NFL is far less forgiving.


No fair that you can make up imaginary, hypothetical injuries to try and prove a point and I can't. Kaep doesn't have a bum knee, and his legs still work fine. If he happened to get hurt in the legs, there's no saying how his passing would change. As I said before, perhaps he is getting a benefit in the passing game from his running, but as you alluded to, perhaps he hasn't been taking advantage of it. In which case, you're left with a passer who has been pretty similar to Hoyer all his career as we have already shown through the numbers....so not sure that there's much of a difference there. All depends on whether or not he gains an advantage from his legs or gains one but doesn't utilize it. But again, completely irrelevant since he doesn't have this hypothetical injury.



The difference is that your hypothetical injury affects all QBs equally, not just Hoyer, and mine affects QBs like Kap more than others. When Russell Wilson played with a high ankle sprain, he was visibly and statistically less effective. When Kap played with a foot injury in 2014 (foot, was it?), he was visibly and statistically less effective. Tom Brady and Big Ben played with knee braces and weren't dramatically impacted. I think that has to come into consideration when you're signing a QB. Are you willing to take on that risk, and are you confident he can be successful even if he has to play through an injury? Players get injured in the NFL, you have to consider it.

Now, we're talking about a stopgap QB in a rebuilding year, so yeah, maybe we could take the risk and it wouldn't matter. But then there are the intangibles. Kap vs Hoyer on being a teammate, on understanding and running the offense, leadership, demeanor on and off the field, etc. Kynch and Kylo met with Kap, and Kylo already knew Hoyer, and they came to the conclusion that Hoyer brought more to the team in its rebuilding effort than Kap.


I don't discount that second paragraph, but it's not my argument, nor has it ever been. I've already said that there are a myriad or reasons the move makes sense - what I'm saying, and what has been my point all along, is that there is nothing that really supports the fact that we have upgraded at quarterback on the field, which is what big said. I'm not even saying we haven't - just that right now, I don't think you can look at the two and say, yeah, that's an improvement on the field.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know or remember if I was aware that's what the discussion with big9er was about, but on my end, I never take stats and performance on the field in a vacuum. I think Hoyer will be an upgrade at doing certain things, while mostly just being a downgrade at running from the QB position. Not a huge upgrade on the field, obviously. I think he'll understand the nuances of playing QB more, while having vastly less arm talent and mobility. There are little things a QB can do to help others around him. Better pocket presence helps the OL in pass protection. Throwing with touch helps receivers catch certain throws. Ball placement helps with YAC. Pre-snap reads helps whatever play comes next for everyone. I'm not saying Hoyer will be better across the board. But there are certain of these things he'll do better than Kap, which helps the team more in the long run, which in turn will help when we get a franchise QB, because the supporting cast will have been doing these nuanced little things on a more frequent basis.

When Kap buys time and the play breaks down (notice that I say "buys time" before "play breaks down", because that's one thing I've complained about him doing), and the receivers get at the end of their routes and have to find a spot and get open to help out Kap... that simply doesn't help anyone. Yes, we can make a play and gain yards, but that's not what this team needs. We're in year 1 of a new system, and I want the players to learn that system, to play within that system, not wait till the play breaks down to play out of the system. I don't want the QB to bail out and the linemen to improvise protection. This year, I'd rather give up a sack within the system than get a 9 yard run outside of it. The former is a learning experience, the latter is randomness. So, in a way, I'm more interested in what Hoyer brings on the field than what Kap brings, even if statistically, Kap is equal or better. Stylistically, he doesn't bring as much.
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having lost a grandmother to ALS, it annoys me to hear Clark allude to football being a possible cause. Pretty certain this one is more genetic than anything else.
Don't bite the hand that fed you when you get a genetic disorder. Evil or Very Mad
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissooner49er wrote:
Having lost a grandmother to ALS, it annoys me to hear Clark allude to football being a possible cause. Pretty certain this one is more genetic than anything else.
Don't bite the hand that fed you when you get a genetic disorder. Evil or Very Mad



I think he did it for the cause of other former players with health problems who didn't get compensated well enough by the league. He himself probably has done well enough for himself not to need money. Football probably hasn't caused it. Maybe it triggered it earlier than otherwise.

Sorry about your grandmother.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PapaShogun wrote:
NcFinest9erFan wrote:
I guess I'll post this here but the great Dwight Clark just announced that he has ALS.

http://debartoloholdings.com/dwightclark.html


Sad. May or may not be related to his football days. Could just be genetic right? Anyways, I can't imagine a worse disease except maybe Alzheimer's.

Well, almost a year ago The End of Life Option Act went into effect in California. Assisted suicide. Honestly if I was in Dwight's position I don't think I would hesitate. I'd rather go out on my own terms than just potentially end up like Steve Gleason. Wouldn't want to go through that mental and physical anguish.

A 41 year old woman who had ALS held a "going away party" last year in California under the new act.

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/08/12/woman-holds-euthanasia-party-before-killing-herself-in-an-assisted-suicide/


Just read today that Gale Sayers is suffering from dementia.
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PapaShogun


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Just read today that Gale Sayers is suffering from dementia.


I read that as well a couple of days ago. Sad. I'm already afraid that when I get old I won't have the luxury of simply passing away in my sleep via natural causes. I'll probably succumb to some despicable illness.
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PapaShogun


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just finished Steve Young's new book. Twas a good read overall. It was a little bit of a hurdle to get through a lot of Steve's personal spiritual beliefs while depicting his life story (he's Mormon), but that's just a personal thing for me. In no way at all does he press his beliefs onto the reader themselves. There was a lot of insight to how he felt during his college, USFL, and NFL days that I found interesting. Especially towards the end of his career when the franchise started to crumble because of the management collapse.

Already starting to read "Founding 49ers: The Dark Days before the Dynasty" by Dave Newhouse next. Basically talks about the franchise's inception from 1946 to 1977 right before Debartolo bought the team. It's a fairly new book and has a lot of interviews from past players and other people involved with the franchise. A good book to read for those looking for detailed information about the days before the dynasty.
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you didn't know Steve Young was Mormon (aka LDS, which is short for "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints"), then you didn't know much about him at all. Just saying.
I have wanted to read his book. Glad to hear it was good.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissooner49er wrote:
If you didn't know Steve Young was Mormon (aka LDS, which is short for "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints"), then you didn't know much about him at all. Just saying.
I have wanted to read his book. Glad to hear it was good.



He didn't say he didn't already know about it, just that it was a bit tedious to read. I, too, if I were to read Steve's book, would probably be happy when that part of the book is over, because it doesn't really speak to me.
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Forge


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:
If you didn't know Steve Young was Mormon (aka LDS, which is short for "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints"), then you didn't know much about him at all. Just saying.
I have wanted to read his book. Glad to hear it was good.



He didn't say he didn't already know about it, just that it was a bit tedious to read. I, too, if I were to read Steve's book, would probably be happy when that part of the book is over, because it doesn't really speak to me.


I believe he's actually a direct descendant of Brigham Young. like a great great grandson or something like that?
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PapaShogun


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
rudyZ wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:
If you didn't know Steve Young was Mormon (aka LDS, which is short for "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints"), then you didn't know much about him at all. Just saying.
I have wanted to read his book. Glad to hear it was good.



He didn't say he didn't already know about it, just that it was a bit tedious to read. I, too, if I were to read Steve's book, would probably be happy when that part of the book is over, because it doesn't really speak to me.


I believe he's actually a direct descendant of Brigham Young. like a great great grandson or something like that?


Correct Smile
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