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Lasus83


Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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Location: Charlotte, NC
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cypher wrote:
Lasus83 wrote:

1. Garrett
2. Fournette
3. Adams/Barnett
5. trade down - but we are eliminating that, for this discussion, right?

Then it gets down to positional value vs. what is available in this draft. CB/TE/RB/DE are "deep" in this years draft. So.

5. Foster
6. Thomas (deep at DE but plays a higher positional value than TE)
7. Davis (not Williams - we've already got too many of them)
8. Lattimore (deep at CB but plays a higher positional value than TE)


I'm really, really curious why you have Thomas so low on your boards. I've asked you several times, but you don't really seem to have a concise answer. Having a player who is fairly similar to the play we got from Hardy is a wonderful thing.

Granted, 99.9% chance he won't be there at 8, but seriously? Foster over him?


I like Thomas plenty. If he is selected at 1.8, I won't complain.

He fits a need and has all-pro potential. Foster, according to what I've heard/read/seen, has the potential to be an all-pro too.

This list was made to show that there are 8 players that I would take over Howard... not done in any over-analyzed order. Heck, Lattimore might should be over Davis, too.
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iknowcool


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But why would you take a linebacker over Howard? He would never see the field unless you think you can transition him to OLB, which still wouldn't make sense because he would A) still never see the field and B) be a terrible misuse of him.
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Lasus83


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iknowcool wrote:
But why would you take a linebacker over Howard? He would never see the field unless you think you can transition him to OLB, which still wouldn't make sense because he would A) still never see the field and B) be a terrible misuse of him.


Remember when we drafted Luke?

Vernon Butler drafted to take KKs role next year...

Ideally, you draft any player to redshirt.

Heck, even OJ or Fournette would be off the field a significant portion of time. We still have Olsen and Jstew...

Of the potential top 10, the players that would come in and start day 1 would be limited. If you've got a good team, this is often the case... it's what you want to happen.

But OJ, unlike the rest, would only come in on 2 TE packages or if Olsen was hurt (which he never is). Olsen probably plays the most snaps of any offensive skill position (WR's/RBs/TEs). He is not letting a rookie take those snaps.

We get OJ and Foster on the field with sub packages...
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Toughguy77


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adams, Hooker, Lattimore, Thomas, & Barnett would be immediate starters on our team once drafted.

Maybe, and it's a big maybe if say one of them didn't pick up the play book or are a complete disappointment during camp you may make have an exception.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well we would likely transition to a 2TE offense if Howard were to be drafted. I've mentioned this several times already but Shula was pushing Rivera/Gettleman to get him another tight end. Howard isn't going to be a backup unless he completely tanks throughout the summer. He'd be getting in on at least half of the offense's snaps.
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iknowcool


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasus83 wrote:
Remember when we drafted Luke?

Vernon Butler drafted to take KKs role next year...


When we drafted Kuechly, it was because Beason was coming off a season-ending injury (a torn achilles, something history at the time proved to be very difficult to come back from). On top of that, Davis was coming off three consecutive seasons where he couldn't finish due to his ACL. Kuechly had the ability to play outside backer and it made sense because at the time we had no idea if Davis was capable of playing a full season anymore (although as we saw, while Kuechly was solid at OLB, he was that much better at MLB and Beason ended up playing like crap and getting hurt).

Basically, when Kuechly was drafted, we had 3 huge question marks at the linebacker position. I don't even remember who our other OLB was at the time, James Anderson? Connor sucked at OLB. Davis was injury prone. Beason was a huge risk. How does that compare to now? Kuechly is an All-Pro and Thompson, while his missed tackles are a concern, has shown the ability to play in coverage and should be able to transition into TD's role once the latter retires.

As far as Butler goes, again I'm not sure where you are getting the comparison. Who's role is Foster going to take in a year or two? We're not moving to a 3-4. Thompson is Davis' eventual replacement. Are we moving on from Kuechly? And it is far easier to have a rotation among the defensive line than it is at linebacker. It's hard enough for the team to get Thompson on the field consistently. Foster would never see the field barring a Kuechly concussion, and that would be a lousy reason to waste a top ten pick.

Quote:
Heck, even OJ or Fournette would be off the field a significant portion of time. We still have Olsen and Jstew...


If we drafted Fournette, we would probably designate Stewart as a June 1st cut (the mystery of the draft is the only reason this has not happened yet). And Howard is an offensive weapon. A good offensive coordinator would get him on the field. Getting your #2 TE, one who is athletic as hell and can split out wide, is far easier than getting your #4 LB, onto the field. It isn't even comparable. The Patriots had no issues getting Bennett/Gronk or Hernandez/Gronk on the field.

Quote:
We get Foster on the field with sub packages...


No, you wouldn't. I would be surprised if there was ever a situation last year where we put 4 LBs on the field at the same time outside of a goal-line situation. If we took him, not only would it be one of the dumbest picks I have ever seen as an NFL fan, but there simply wouldn't be any way to get him on the field. Even if we put him at OLB, he's not seeing the field. We're not putting 4 LBs on the field. And Kuechly is a Hall of Fame ILB. Even if you think the concussions are a recurring problem, you don't take a MLB at #8 just because Kuechly might be miss 4 games one season.

I just don't get why you think taking a linebacker makes sense. It would probably the worst pick we could make outside of quarterback. When Davis retires, Thompson is going to replace him. Foster probably will turn out to be a better pro than Thompson, but that isn't reason enough to spend a top ten pick on him. He would be the most expensive depth in the NFL. He would not see the field. There is no sub package we run other than goal-line situations (if even) where 4 LBs see the field.
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Lasus83


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
Well we would likely transition to a 2TE offense if Howard were to be drafted. I've mentioned this several times already but Shula was pushing Rivera/Gettleman to get him another tight end. Howard isn't going to be a backup unless he completely tanks throughout the summer. He'd be getting in on at least half of the offense's snaps.


Every snap is not going to be 2 TE. Dunno if the other option is to split OJ/Greg wide... I would assume that Greg would split wide in that scenario.

I suppose, also, they could line up at 2 TE and motion OJ to a FB-type position.

You find ways to use talent.

But I don't think for a second that Greg plays 2nd fiddle to OJ. He will not be the "starter".

Same way with Adams/Hooker/Lattimore/Thomas & Barnett.

We have 2 (arguably 3) starting safeties on this team. I'm sure that any of them would just-so-happen to beat out a vet in training camp. But even that position is rotated.

Lattimore is the 2CB... maybe the most playing time on this list.

Tomas and Barnett would be rotating with Pep/Addison/CJ and a spell of Horton on occasion.

None of these guys are penciled-in starters on our team. And that's good.

We do not have a gaping hole at any 50 play positions. No QB hole, no MLB hole, no Sam/Mike hole. No CB1 hole. Starters across the OL (hopefully).
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iknowcool


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of speculation that Cook will fall to the 2nd round. If so, I would be ecstatic if we took him. I know his combine has a lot of people disappointed, but I still see an explosive player when I watch him play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLa-Ou322nA

1:57. Just an example of him using his cutting ability to make something out of nothing. 2:44, his burst is exceptional.

His combine is concerning and it makes you think he probably isn't the athlete he is touted up to be. But when you watch him play, you see the talent and potential. It is worth taking a chance on in the second round.
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Panthers11


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would be all for trading up a tad, maybe even to the end of the first round for Cook.

A Howard/Cook duo would be huge for this offense.
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iknowcool


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I think about it, the more I can't see us being all that interested in Jamal Adams. We were hesitant to throw a lot of money at Norman. While a lot of that had to do the front office and coaches feeling he was strictly a zone corner and his age, it still represented the value (or lack thereof) we put on the cornerback position. It wouldn't surprise me if we valued the safety position even less.

Since Gettleman has taken over, we have invested 4 draft picks into the corner position (granted, 3 of them came last year); in comparison, we have taken one safety, Boston. And that was in the 4th round and in a year where we needed to replace Mitchell and Mikell. It would surprise me if we invested a top ten pick at S and took Adams or Hooker. This is a strong DB class though and we will probably look at someone in the second or third round.

Right now, this would be who I think their top 3 guys look like:

RB Leonard Fournette: By all accounts, we really, really liked Derrick Henry last year and he would have been our second round pick if he was available. When you consider the talent, need, and size (Gettleman loves size), I can't picture a scenario where we pass on him. With that said, it is looking more and more unlikely he will fall to us. If I had to bet, he is the number one player on our board unless for some reason they wasted their time ranking Myles Garrett.

TE O.J. Howard: We were also very interested in Hunter Henry last year. Howard is another guy who fits in with what Gettleman likes; great size combined with amazing athleticism. On top of that, he is a good blocker, something we love to do with our TEs. Considering how much we played Dickson at FB whenever Tolbert would get hurt, this is something to remember. I'm beginning to think that the chances of us taking him at #8 are bigger than many of us think.

DE Jonathan Allen: The thing that boosts Allen the most is his versatility to slide inside on passing downs. We seem to look for that the most in our DEs. Hardy and Johnson did it a lot for us (CJ doesn't seem to do it much anymore or at least I haven't noticed) and Ealy did it as well. I'm admittedly not a fan of Barnett, but one of the reasons I'm not sold we are considering him much at our pick is because I don't think he has the ability to do that and he's not as good of a run defender either (the main thing that kept Addison off the field no matter his pass rush prowess). And that is assuming he even sticks at 4-3 DE; some think he should transition to 3-4 OLB. Allen has the superior size and versatility that we like. The number one concern with Allen will be if you think his shoulder will become that big of an issue. Medical is important here.

You could throw Solomon Thomas in there. I'm sure we would love him, but it seems like a slim possibility he will fall to us.
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james.mcmurry13


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iknowcool wrote:
DE Jonathan Allen


Is he really being considered as a 4-3 end? Admittedly I haven't followed this draft process closely, but everything I've seen about him points to 4-3 UT or 3-4 end.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasus83 wrote:
Zithers wrote:
Well we would likely transition to a 2TE offense if Howard were to be drafted. I've mentioned this several times already but Shula was pushing Rivera/Gettleman to get him another tight end. Howard isn't going to be a backup unless he completely tanks throughout the summer. He'd be getting in on at least half of the offense's snaps.


Every snap is not going to be 2 TE. Dunno if the other option is to split OJ/Greg wide... I would assume that Greg would split wide in that scenario. I suppose, also, they could line up at 2 TE and motion OJ to a FB-type position. You find ways to use talent. But I don't think for a second that Greg plays 2nd fiddle to OJ. He will not be the "starter".


Didn't say he would be the "starter." Said he would be on the field a lot since we'd transition to a 2TE offense. And yeah, Howard and Olsen would be getting a lot of H-Back looks in the backfield like Olsen and Dickson have been doing for awhile now. And they can split out wide or in the slot. Or they can both be inline guys going down the seams. The amount of versatility we would gain by having two great, athletic receiving tight ends who are solid blockers would be ridiculous.

The fact that I am psyching myself up for picking him almost certainly means we aren't taking him though. Ugh.
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iknowcool


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
iknowcool wrote:
DE Jonathan Allen


Is he really being considered as a 4-3 end? Admittedly I haven't followed this draft process closely, but everything I've seen about him points to 4-3 UT or 3-4 end.


He played at 4-3 DE some for Alabama. He's pretty versatile. The biggest concern would be his height (he's 6'3), but I think he has the talent to handle it. Ideally I would love him on the interior, but I still believe he could make a really good end. But I could see why someone wouldn't want to put him there. It's a risk.

It could also be used as insurance in case we can't re-sign both Short and Lotulelei.
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Lasus83


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james.mcmurry13 wrote:
iknowcool wrote:
DE Jonathan Allen


Is he really being considered as a 4-3 end? Admittedly I haven't followed this draft process closely, but everything I've seen about him points to 4-3 UT or 3-4 end.


No, he is not. He is a KK Short.

He's a DT in our scheme or a DE in a 3-4.

If we are switching to 3-4, I'm cool with it.

KK - Star/Vernon - Allen

The above is a nasty front. But there is no way it is happening. We don't have the personnel at LB.

What are we gonna do? Tell JP to stand up again?

JP - Shaq - Luke - TD
KK - Star - Allen

Pepper in Addison/CJ somewhere... I guess they would be standing up too.

Either way. DG talked about guys that were not on their board due to scheme fit and/or off-field issues.

While I do not think that Allen is "off the board" entirely... I view him as a Vernon Butler type. A guy that, if he slips, you have to take on pure talent alone. But he would have to slip to our pick in the 2nd... and we ALL know that's not gonna happen.
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Lasus83


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
Lasus83 wrote:
Zithers wrote:
Well we would likely transition to a 2TE offense if Howard were to be drafted. I've mentioned this several times already but Shula was pushing Rivera/Gettleman to get him another tight end. Howard isn't going to be a backup unless he completely tanks throughout the summer. He'd be getting in on at least half of the offense's snaps.


Every snap is not going to be 2 TE. Dunno if the other option is to split OJ/Greg wide... I would assume that Greg would split wide in that scenario. I suppose, also, they could line up at 2 TE and motion OJ to a FB-type position. You find ways to use talent. But I don't think for a second that Greg plays 2nd fiddle to OJ. He will not be the "starter".


Didn't say he would be the "starter." Said he would be on the field a lot since we'd transition to a 2TE offense. And yeah, Howard and Olsen would be getting a lot of H-Back looks in the backfield like Olsen and Dickson have been doing for awhile now. And they can split out wide or in the slot. Or they can both be inline guys going down the seams. The amount of versatility we would gain by having two great, athletic receiving tight ends who are solid blockers would be ridiculous.

The fact that I am psyching myself up for picking him almost certainly means we aren't taking him though. Ugh.


Isn't this the dayum case every year?

And every year we are surprised and have to have the post-draft "do you trust in DG?" discussion...

Christ... with that logic, i'll bet it is a trade-up scenario for Fournette... and a scenario we will all hate (including me), where we leverage 1.8 and 2.8 to move up to take Fournette. Probably end up getting back a 3rd... more trade-up ammo... but god I will feel we had overpaid in that scenario. I'll be mumbling to myself "remember the Julio Jones trade... Remember Julio Jones"...
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