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DeMarcus Ware retires
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 48516
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGame316 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.


26 Career sacks in the 4th quarter

26/138 = 18.7%

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/8426

You can go season by season

Maybe not so dumb eh?


Without going into the numbers - - you did see him win the Broncos a superbowl right? Where he beat the hell out of brady, then beat up Cam and got the critical fumble recovery?
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TheGame316


Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.


26 Career sacks in the 4th quarter

26/138 = 18.7%

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/8426

You can go season by season

Maybe not so dumb eh?


Without going into the numbers - - you did see him win the Broncos a superbowl right? Where he beat the hell out of brady, then beat up Cam and got the critical fumble recovery?


No one is saying he didn't have a nice run on possibly a GOAT defense rushing opposite maybe the best pass rusher in the game today

My eye test as a Cowboys fan told me what I already knew before I looked into the stats

18.5/117 4th quarter sacks for 15.7% when he was a Cowboy

Kinda opposite the post before mine said that the majority of his sacks were in the 4th quarter - obviously not

Even in Denver, Ware had 5 4th Quarter sacks out of 21.5 for 23.2%

By Comparison, over the same 3 year period, Von Miller had 14.5 4th quarter sacks for 37.6% of his sack total

Ware came up small late in games, and the stats prove it
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resilient


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stats can be so misleading. During Ware's prime in Dallas, Ware was forever doubled teamed in crunch time (4th quarter) and getting help from WHAT teammate? Spencer? in 8 seasons Spencer had 33 career sacks!

Then you have Marcus Spears, with a career total of 10!

Von Miller spent most if not all of his career with a real threat opposite himself. Elvis Dumerville had 17 sacks in one season alone. Then when Elvis left, Ware stepped in.

I won't even mention Denver's top secondary which certainly allows for more time for DEs to get to the QB. Dallas had who during Ware's days in Dallas.

There are so many factors to consider but ultimately my "eye test" tells me Ware was a rare and clearly great player who Dallas has not even come close to replacing since.

It really surprises me that anyone would try to minimize his accomplishments and ability.
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TheGame316


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

resilient wrote:
Stats can be so misleading. During Ware's prime in Dallas, Ware was forever doubled teamed in crunch time (4th quarter) and getting help from WHAT teammate? Spencer? in 8 seasons Spencer had 33 career sacks!

Then you have Marcus Spears, with a career total of 10!

Von Miller spent most if not all of his career with a real threat opposite himself. Elvis Dumerville had 17 sacks in one season alone. Then when Elvis left, Ware stepped in.

I won't even mention Denver's top secondary which certainly allows for more time for DEs to get to the QB. Dallas had who during Ware's days in Dallas.

There are so many factors to consider but ultimately my "eye test" tells me Ware was a rare and clearly great player who Dallas has not even come close to replacing since.

It really surprises me that anyone would try to minimize his accomplishments and ability.


Ware had the same secondary in quarters 1-3 as he had in Quarter 4 while playing for the Cowboys

If Ware had such elite secondaries in Denver, and since he is rushing opposite Von Miller, shouldn't his sack totals be higher for his years there?

Von Miller takes on Doubles in the 4th, and he`s come up with a 37% 4th quarter sack rate

No ones saying Ware wasn't a great player, but he wasn't a difference maker in the 4th quarter. On average, he didn't, or couldn't step up his game when his team needed him most
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Jlash


Joined: 17 Oct 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGame316 wrote:


Ware had the same secondary in quarters 1-3 as he had in Quarter 4 while playing for the Cowboys

If Ware had such elite secondaries in Denver, and since he is rushing opposite Von Miller, shouldn't his sack totals be higher for his years there?

Von Miller takes on Doubles in the 4th, and he`s come up with a 37% 4th quarter sack rate

No ones saying Ware wasn't a great player, but he wasn't a difference maker in the 4th quarter. On average, he didn't, or couldn't step up his game when his team needed him most


Because he was older with a body breaking down? 22 sacks in 33 games with Denver isn't that bad for a guy in a heavy rotation playing at the end of his career.
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheGame316 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.


26 Career sacks in the 4th quarter

26/138.5 = 18.7%

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/8426

You can go season by season

18.5/117 for 15.7% when he was a Cowboy

Maybe not so dumb eh?


I hope you're not a math teacher....

4 qtr sacks = 38.5
38.5/138.5 = 27.7%

As a Cowboy...
4 qtr sacks = 27
27/111 = 24.3%

One more piece from Archer on the bum that is Demarcus Ware...

Quote:
Todd Archer‏ @toddarcher Mar 13
54 sacks came on 3rd, 4th down. 42 on 1st, 42.5 on 2nd. I don't think 2nd, 3rd and long is a bad thing though. Call me crazy


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Tony7188


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.


I agree. The fact that our own fans can't comprehend what we are saying about Ware is pretty sad. Since they can't comprehend someone challenging their belief about Ware, they make up things they wish we had said, such as "Ware is a bum"
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resilient


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jlash wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:


Ware had the same secondary in quarters 1-3 as he had in Quarter 4 while playing for the Cowboys

If Ware had such elite secondaries in Denver, and since he is rushing opposite Von Miller, shouldn't his sack totals be higher for his years there?

Von Miller takes on Doubles in the 4th, and he`s come up with a 37% 4th quarter sack rate

No ones saying Ware wasn't a great player, but he wasn't a difference maker in the 4th quarter. On average, he didn't, or couldn't step up his game when his team needed him most


Because he was older with a body breaking down? 22 sacks in 33 games with Denver isn't that bad for a guy in a heavy rotation playing at the end of his career.


X2
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony7188 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
WizardHawk wrote:
TheGame316 wrote:
Quarters 1 though 3 are going to miss his production


Yep. 4th qtr too where the majority of his sacks came.


Yup. Out of all the NFC E fans, I often think our own make the most dumb effing retarded comments.


I agree. The fact that our own fans can't comprehend what we are saying about Ware is pretty sad. Since they can't comprehend someone challenging their belief about Ware, they make up things they wish we had said, such as "Ware is a bum"


You're right, nobody used "bum" but me, instead it was "Didn't do anything for us when it mattered the most.....since he disappeared in the playoffs." That's so much better. And, still wrong.

I mean, yeah anyone can marginalize what Ware did in the playoffs for Dallas. He didn't have a pass thrown right to him that he ran back 100yds for a TD. He didn't get that sack or forced fumble that sealed the game.

He had were 4 sacks and a FF in the playoffs for Dallas, but since none of the 5 plays won the game for Dallas, it doesn't matter, he doesn't have a signature play.

But, whatever. Not a debate I'm going to pursue any longer. As Matts said, it's 'effing retarded.

Carry on.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever happened to simply appreciating the fact that we had a terrific HOF DE for many years? I just don't get the "he didn't do this" or "he didn't do that" mind set. Lord knows what we give to have a player of his caliber on our roster now.
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Rtnldave


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look the simple fact is that in over 2 decades we had those so called World Beaters (My term, no one said it earlier) on this team. And NONE of them have even gotten us remotely close to a SB, MAYBE close an NFC championship game, but that's it. Then they go elsewhere and win a title in like 2 years.

You want to toot Ware's horn, that's fine, no one is saying you shouldn't or be proud of the player he was and what he accomplished.

But after 2 decades of being steeped in mediocrity, I am reserving the "GREAT" term or "BEST EVER" for the next player that shows up with some stones in the playoffs and absolutely refuses to get beat. And then leads us to a title, either offensively or defensively.

Now Ware did it with a washed up, overrated, one legged QB in Denver. But he couldn't do it here. So, we know he was capable.....just not here. Like so many other players we had.

So, yeah, he had a great career, he is the all time sack leader on the Cowboys, not saying much these days, we can't get a player close to 10, and he was fun to watch.

But reserve the term "GREATEST" or "BEST OF ALL TIME" to those that can use their talents to lead us to the promised land.

It is like the argument I have about E. Smith and B. Sanders.

So many variables involved. Example being:

Smith had a great line, Sanders had nothing.

Really???? Didn't they beat the ish out of us in a divisional game just one year before we won our first of three?

Smith had Aikman, Irvin, Moose and Novacek-Sanders had Peete, Moore and whoever.

But if I try to make the argument that ANY of those Cowboys players should be considered top 5 of all time, people think I'm crazy.

Sanders also played in a much weaker division than Smith. Easier defenses to run against. But see, nobody wants to discuss that.

Sorry, getting way off base here, point is, I don't throw the "GREAT" term around based on talent or stats.

Remember:

Stats = Talent (If a player is uber talented, he will surely have good stats)

Greatness = How a player uses that talent to overcome adversity and finish his career a champion.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last time I checked football is a team game. The Hall of Fame is filled with great players who never won championships, hell some who never sniffed a playoff game ( I believe this applies to guys like Sayers and Butkus - are they going to get slammed as well, for not leading/willing their teams to championships?) With respect to Ware, for many of his years in Dallas he was a marked man. Opposing offenses would scheme to minimize his contributions and force someone else to step up.

Despite this I believe it was on the NFL Network where they said only two players since the league began to record sack numbers have put up a higher sack per games played ratio that Ware. Those players were Lawrence Taylor and Reggie White. Ware is in elite company. Cue the Taylor and White willed their teams on their own to Super Bowl wins! No one else contributed but them!

I know we are starved for a championship in Dallas. But I still don't understand the Ware bashing. Celebrate the man's career and what he brought to Dallas both on and off the field.
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Rtnldave


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:
Last time I checked football is a team game. The Hall of Fame is filled with great players who never won championships, hell some who never sniffed a playoff game ( I believe this applies to guys like Sayers and Butkus - are they going to get slammed as well, for not leading/willing their teams to championships?) With respect to Ware, for many of his years in Dallas he was a marked man. Opposing offenses would scheme to minimize his contributions and force someone else to step up.

Despite this I believe it was on the NFL Network where they said only two players since the league began to record sack numbers have put up a higher sack per games played ratio that Ware. Those players were Lawrence Taylor and Reggie White. Ware is in elite company. Cue the Taylor and White willed their teams on their own to Super Bowl wins! No one else contributed but them!

I know we are starved for a championship in Dallas. But I still don't understand the Ware bashing. Celebrate the man's career and what he brought to Dallas both on and off the field.


So who is bashing him? I'm just giving my opinion.

And as for those other players you mentioned, if you are on a crap team you won't have a shot. Like Archie Manning.

But the games we lost in the playoffs, we were there. We were in the game. Just needed our best players to step up, to take over.

Same could be said for Romo. Hell, even Witten, in his illustrious career Just caught his first post seaon TD this year!

That can't happen to your best players! That is how and why we lose. Your best players have to lead. And puts didn't in the part. And I'm sorry I see Ware as one of those. But I do.

Sorry we disagree.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rtnldave wrote:
Northland wrote:
Last time I checked football is a team game. The Hall of Fame is filled with great players who never won championships, hell some who never sniffed a playoff game ( I believe this applies to guys like Sayers and Butkus - are they going to get slammed as well, for not leading/willing their teams to championships?) With respect to Ware, for many of his years in Dallas he was a marked man. Opposing offenses would scheme to minimize his contributions and force someone else to step up.

Despite this I believe it was on the NFL Network where they said only two players since the league began to record sack numbers have put up a higher sack per games played ratio that Ware. Those players were Lawrence Taylor and Reggie White. Ware is in elite company. Cue the Taylor and White willed their teams on their own to Super Bowl wins! No one else contributed but them!

I know we are starved for a championship in Dallas. But I still don't understand the Ware bashing. Celebrate the man's career and what he brought to Dallas both on and off the field.


So who is bashing him? I'm just giving my opinion.

And as for those other players you mentioned, if you are on a crap team you won't have a shot. Like Archie Manning.

But the games we lost in the playoffs, we were there. We were in the game. Just needed our best players to step up, to take over.

Same could be said for Romo. Hell, even Witten, in his illustrious career Just caught his first post seaon TD this year!

That can't happen to your best players! That is how and why we lose. Your best players have to lead. And puts didn't in the part. And I'm sorry I see Ware as one of those. But I do.

Sorry we disagree.


No need to apologize Dave. Differences of opinion are fine. We could go on and on which I am not prepared to do - on the road pulling long hours and lots of travel for work.

But I will say this. Winning and losing is often a matter of inches. Or a timely, or untimely play. And these big plays are sometimes influenced by our stars and sometimes not.
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Rtnldave


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:
Rtnldave wrote:
Northland wrote:
Last time I checked football is a team game. The Hall of Fame is filled with great players who never won championships, hell some who never sniffed a playoff game ( I believe this applies to guys like Sayers and Butkus - are they going to get slammed as well, for not leading/willing their teams to championships?) With respect to Ware, for many of his years in Dallas he was a marked man. Opposing offenses would scheme to minimize his contributions and force someone else to step up.

Despite this I believe it was on the NFL Network where they said only two players since the league began to record sack numbers have put up a higher sack per games played ratio that Ware. Those players were Lawrence Taylor and Reggie White. Ware is in elite company. Cue the Taylor and White willed their teams on their own to Super Bowl wins! No one else contributed but them!

I know we are starved for a championship in Dallas. But I still don't understand the Ware bashing. Celebrate the man's career and what he brought to Dallas both on and off the field.


So who is bashing him? I'm just giving my opinion.

And as for those other players you mentioned, if you are on a crap team you won't have a shot. Like Archie Manning.

But the games we lost in the playoffs, we were there. We were in the game. Just needed our best players to step up, to take over.

Same could be said for Romo. Hell, even Witten, in his illustrious career Just caught his first post seaon TD this year!

That can't happen to your best players! That is how and why we lose. Your best players have to lead. And puts didn't in the part. And I'm sorry I see Ware as one of those. But I do.

Sorry we disagree.


No need to apologize Dave. Differences of opinion are fine. We could go on and on which I am not prepared to do - on the road pulling long hours and lots of travel for work.

But I will say this. Winning and losing is often a matter of inches. Or a timely, or untimely play. And these big plays are sometimes influenced by our stars and sometimes not.


I'll go along with that. Wink
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