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G Ron Leary Signs with DEN - 4 years, 35M, 20M guaranteed
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Good signing?
Yes
63%
 63%  [ 7 ]
No
36%
 36%  [ 4 ]
Who's Ron Leary?
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 11

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BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3749
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If we were going to pay Calais 13 why not 9 for Wagner?


Because Campbell is an elite, top 3-5 at his position, game-changing defensive monster who teams literally have to game plan for each Sunday and plays a position that historically drafted players take time to master, while Ricky Wagner is a top 8-12 RT who just got LT money, has a history of inconsistent play and plays a position that historically you can draft and play (Not this team lately, but RT certainly provide a faster turn-around on investment than 34DE, who like TE almost always take a season to adjust).

Quote:
What I am asking you is simple. If as you are saying we missed no one in the market and in my view we currently hv no Tackles, what is the plan to get TACKLES on our roster? Can you pls speculate on that?


Easy, wait for the market to price out the overpaid guys and take middling talents on value contracts while spending at least 1, maybe 2, of our top four 100 picks on OL.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 48649
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leary is a really good player with no weakness. He is better at run blocking than pass, but is above average at both. He was PFFs highest rated OL one year (2014?), over Smith, Fredrick and Martin.

He does have a degenerative knee issue but it has not been an issue before. This is also the first time he has ever been paid, so not sure how that will effect him.
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mke1010


Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 2695
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
If we were going to pay Calais 13 why not 9 for Wagner?


Because Campbell is an elite, top 3-5 at his position, game-changing defensive monster who teams literally have to game plan for each Sunday and plays a position that historically drafted players take time to master, while Ricky Wagner is a top 8-12 RT who just got LT money, has a history of inconsistent play and plays a position that historically you can draft and play (Not this team lately, but RT certainly provide a faster turn-around on investment than 34DE, who like TE almost always take a season to adjust).

Quote:
What I am asking you is simple. If as you are saying we missed no one in the market and in my view we currently hv no Tackles, what is the plan to get TACKLES on our roster? Can you pls speculate on that?


Easy, wait for the market to price out the overpaid guys and take middling talents on value contracts while spending at least 1, maybe 2, of our top four 100 picks on OL.

Calais Campbell will turn 31 this season. He was ranked 11th best against the run among 3-4 DEs. Quite frankly, we can get much better value in the draft which is strong this year for DLine prospects as opposed to a veeeery weak O Line class. Wagner is better value at 9 mil as opposed to Calais at 13 given what is avail in free agency as well as draft.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 2964
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mke1010 wrote:
BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
If we were going to pay Calais 13 why not 9 for Wagner?


Because Campbell is an elite, top 3-5 at his position, game-changing defensive monster who teams literally have to game plan for each Sunday and plays a position that historically drafted players take time to master, while Ricky Wagner is a top 8-12 RT who just got LT money, has a history of inconsistent play and plays a position that historically you can draft and play (Not this team lately, but RT certainly provide a faster turn-around on investment than 34DE, who like TE almost always take a season to adjust).

Quote:
What I am asking you is simple. If as you are saying we missed no one in the market and in my view we currently hv no Tackles, what is the plan to get TACKLES on our roster? Can you pls speculate on that?


Easy, wait for the market to price out the overpaid guys and take middling talents on value contracts while spending at least 1, maybe 2, of our top four 100 picks on OL.

Calais Campbell will turn 31 this season. He was ranked 11th best against the run among 3-4 DEs. Quite frankly, we can get much better value in the draft which is strong this year for DLine prospects as opposed to a veeeery weak O Line class. Wagner is better value at 9 mil as opposed to Calais at 13 given what is avail in free agency as well as draft.


The reason why Wagner wasn't appealing is that he was the highest paid RT. RT is a lot easier to fill in FA and even the draft than LT. People are adamant the top draft T's aren't LT ready - but they are RT-ready. If Campbell were being offered 18-20M as the top 3-4 DE over the 16M guys, you'd see a similar objection. That's what the others are saying.

It's not just a pure numbers game - you have to factor in the position. It's why we rightfully stayed out of the NT bidding for Poe - 10M+ is insane. Sadly it's probably going to increase the price for Logan, but before this offseason the most a NT got paid was between 5-6M. I'd expect we shoot for 5M for Logan, even less would be great.

Offering Campbell 13M made him the #4 3-4 DE overall, and well below the 16M threshold, and just above the 12M threshold of the 4-8 guys. For the #1 3-4 DE according to PFF, that was fair. Same with Whitworth at LT, 12M was top 5 $ for the 2nd highest PFF T.

Wagner? He was the 19th. NINETEENTH. 8th best RT. When the top RT were being paid 5-6M before the cap bump. So yeah, 9M was an insane overpay. I don't fault Elway there at all. As ILD pointed out, BAL had every reason to retain Wagner, and passed. They are looking for a RT right now. The Ravens didn't want to pay the 8th best RT and 19th best T top RT $. That's telling.

It's a weak T FA class - but paying the 19th overall T top RT money is just not what Elway does. He did miscalculate badly on Whitworth. I think most if not all of us agree there. But not Wagner.

I don't like where we're at because it really puts a lot of pressure on Elway to have to draft a T Rd 1 - I prefer total freedom. But RT would be the ideal fit for a rookie. LT is rarely a success, unless you are elite, and no Clady-rookie level guys are there. Personally, I think Elway should get a FA RT, and draft 2 rookie OL, because we need them long-term anyways, no matter who we find in FA, and it takes 2+ years if you aren't a top 25-50 type player.

Really, with all the big contracts, other than a few guys who are likely going soon (Terrelle Pryor at WR stands out), we're going to start to hit the next tier of more value-based signings over the weekend/next week. I expect that's where Elway will work. I would have much preferred to have 1 of Whitworth or Campbell, but I also don't believe in compounding mistakes by then over-paying the next tier - difference makers are worth paying at their level - the middle-tier OK-but-not-elite guys are the ones not worth overpaying for.
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BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3749
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Calais Campbell will turn 31 this season. He was ranked 11th best against the run among 3-4 DEs. Quite frankly, we can get much better value in the draft which is strong this year for DLine prospects as opposed to a veeeery weak O Line class. Wagner is better value at 9 mil as opposed to Calais at 13 given what is avail in free agency as well as draft.


Well this is all very wrong but I see Broncofan already eviscerated it lol
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mke1010


Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 2695
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
Calais Campbell will turn 31 this season. He was ranked 11th best against the run among 3-4 DEs. Quite frankly, we can get much better value in the draft which is strong this year for DLine prospects as opposed to a veeeery weak O Line class. Wagner is better value at 9 mil as opposed to Calais at 13 given what is avail in free agency as well as draft.


Well this is all very wrong but I see Broncofan already eviscerated it lol

Matter of opinion dude. The market is not ideal. Personally I don't think Elway made a mistake in passing on Whitworth but that's just me.
The reason we didn't make the playoffs last year was becos of our O Line and as bad as our run D was last season I don't think the blame lies there. LT is critical but RT is very important too. We saw this when our QBs were getting killed week in week out. Got so bad, we started playing musical chairs with Sambrailo and Stevenson.

No doubt Broncofan makes salient points in terms of the value of Wagner per his performance. Still in terms of what is available in the draft as well as FA and the fact that our O Line is so atrocious, in of itself I think Wagner at 9 mil helps our team more than Campbell at 13 million. My view period. It is not ideal to overpay for a player but given our circumstance combined with external circumstances, I wld def take Wagner over a 31 year old Calais who has never been dominant. Very good? Yes. Worth 13 mil to our D given our OLine condition? Heck no. Not even going to argue about Calais being a top 5 DE in the NFL. That's just asinine. There are at least 10 DEs I wld take ahead of him per value of his contract via-a-vis performance.

Some where rejoicing that Cleveland saved Elway from himself per Romo. I thank Jacksonville from saving both Elway and VJ from themselves ala Campbell.
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