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CW21's 2017 NFL Draft Thread (RB Grades Updated)
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
CWood21 wrote:
Except Kupp doesn't run very many routes, so calling them "solid routes" is probably a generous description. He's an average athlete who runs average at best routes, that's not exactly a winning combination at the next level. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a solid pro and he's going to have a decent career (quality #3 WR), but there's nothing there that gets you that warm and fuzzy feeling. As for the difference between he and Zay Jones, you'll notice they're graded out in the same round. Difference between the players is minimal, and I think level of competition is the biggest separator between the two. East Carolina didn't play this crazy tough competition, but they faced tougher competition than Eastern Washington. Neither one of them are #1 WR, and probably not higher end #2s even if things go well.


If things go well, both those guys are easily high-end #2 WRs. I'll take both guys on my WR corp any day of the week. I'm tired of the Rams employing WRs who don't catch the football.

You're seriously underrating Zay Jones. I have a feeling he's going to be very high on the Patriots' WR list (especially if he performs well in the 3CD).

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
Kupp has great hands, runs solid routes, and has both NFL quality size and speed. I get the critique involving the system and his age but he consistently makes plays after the catch, production that was not generated by the offense but by his own ability. As to the level of competition, he destroyed Oregon and then by all accounts was the best WR at the Senior Bowl practices. I just don't get why he would be ranked below a guy like Zay Jones for instance, whose production was similarly manufactured by the offense, doesn't catch anything over 15 yards, doesn't do much after the catch, and cannot separate versus man because of his lack of speed.


Dude, what are you talking about? Zay Jones was creating yardage after the catch all year long. And he showed the ability to separate versus man against guys who are playing on Sundays and will play on Sundays. Not to mention the fact that he'll also make contested catches while covered.

Jones separates because he's a technician with stop and start quickness. And it definitely helps that he catches everything in sight.

You can hype Kupp without selling Jones short.


I just didn't like Jones that much, his hands are phenomenal but it looked like he was running in slow motion and everything was under 15 yards w/o much after the catch. I only watched South Carolina and Cincinnati though, I'll watch a few more games this week.


He's a technician who catches everything. He'll produce at the next level. Quick feet, stop and start acceleration, and very fluid hips. Beautiful footwork on his release techniques. Aggressively sells his vertical stems. Crisp cuts. Adjusts his routes to coverage and leverage. Long arms and big catch radius. Shows up consistently in contested catch situations.

He's an underrated player. Straight-line speed is an overrated attribute. His skill-set is similar to Tyler Boyd's. But Jones is a much more physical blocker (doesn't have Boyd's diva issues). Jones has more crispness to his game, while Boyd was smoother.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Groink wrote:
You can call Kupp's Senior Bowl hype unwarranted, but he did exactly what he was supposed to do. He dominated his level of competition his whole college career, and needed to come there and show that he could do it against the highest level of competition. Which he consistently did all week. Besides his age (he'll be 24 next summer) he's checking all the boxes so far. I don't care if he supposedly "didn't really run routes at Eastern Washington" whatever that means. He ran some precise crisp routes, got separation, and caught everything in sight all week.

He was a late-bloomer, and didn't receive hardly any D1 interest. Kind of like a certain Eagles starting quarterback. Doesn't mean anything. The kid is a hard worker and has a high football iq. If you could grab him late 2nd-3rd round, I think you get a solid number 2 wr that could contribute early. And I think his athleticism is sold short. He's no burner, but he has solid speed that he maintains during cuts. But I guess we all see things a little differently.


Again, like I said to Chwf3rd25 what he does at the Combine and Senior Bowl should verify what you saw on tape when he was playing with Eastern Washington. Was he more explosive at the Senior Bowl than he was on tape? No. Was he running a diverse route tree? No. Is he a better athlete than he showed on game tape? No. Again, your evaluations shouldn't change because of any one game, and if you're weighing one tape heavier than another there has to be a legitimate reason. And again if you want to make the argument that he should be a round or two higher, I probably wouldn't fight you real hard on that.

If age is the only issue you have with him, I've got concerns you're not being being very subjective. His route running is rudimentary, and a large portion of his college production was manufactured. Let me ask you this, what separates him from say Tajae Sharpe just a year ago? Both had massive production, and both did well during the All Star process. I'm not saying that Kupp is Sharpe (I think Kupp is better), but the question needs to be asked.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chwf3rd25 wrote:
Thanks for the explanation, I just wanted to know what you saw in their games that differed from my own evaluation. Keep up the good work, I enjoy your thread and how much effort you put into it.


Appreciate the kind words. And I think it'd be worth mentioning that the difference between a 3rd round WR and a 5th round WR is significantly smaller than the difference between a 1st round WR and a 3rd round WR. And after all the information is in, the rankings will be finalized. I just can't justify him being higher than a 3rd round grade, and I generally tend to take a cautious viewpoint on lower leveled prospects until all the information is out there.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
Groink wrote:
You can call Kupp's Senior Bowl hype unwarranted, but he did exactly what he was supposed to do. He dominated his level of competition his whole college career, and needed to come there and show that he could do it against the highest level of competition. Which he consistently did all week. Besides his age (he'll be 24 next summer) he's checking all the boxes so far. I don't care if he supposedly "didn't really run routes at Eastern Washington" whatever that means. He ran some precise crisp routes, got separation, and caught everything in sight all week.

He was a late-bloomer, and didn't receive hardly any D1 interest. Kind of like a certain Eagles starting quarterback. Doesn't mean anything. The kid is a hard worker and has a high football iq. If you could grab him late 2nd-3rd round, I think you get a solid number 2 wr that could contribute early. And I think his athleticism is sold short. He's no burner, but he has solid speed that he maintains during cuts. But I guess we all see things a little differently.


Again, like I said to Chwf3rd25 what he does at the Combine and Senior Bowl should verify what you saw on tape when he was playing with Eastern Washington. Was he more explosive at the Senior Bowl than he was on tape? No. Was he running a diverse route tree? No. Is he a better athlete than he showed on game tape? No. Again, your evaluations shouldn't change because of any one game, and if you're weighing one tape heavier than another there has to be a legitimate reason. And again if you want to make the argument that he should be a round or two higher, I probably wouldn't fight you real hard on that.

If age is the only issue you have with him, I've got concerns you're not being being very subjective. His route running is rudimentary, and a large portion of his college production was manufactured. Let me ask you this, what separates him from say Tajae Sharpe just a year ago? Both had massive production, and both did well during the All Star process. I'm not saying that Kupp is Sharpe (I think Kupp is better), but the question needs to be asked.


I wasn't a fan of Sharpe, so I'm probably the wrong guy to answer this question, but I'll do it anyways. Sharpe had small hands, no explosiveness to his game, and wasn't very physical. He didn't dominate contested catch situations either.

Sharpe was a precise route runner who caught the ball reliably. IMO, Kupp has a lot more explosion to his game, a lot more physicality, and a lot more ability to come down with contested catches.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
I wasn't a fan of Sharpe, so I'm probably the wrong guy to answer this question, but I'll do it anyways. Sharpe had small hands, no explosiveness to his game, and wasn't very physical. He didn't dominate contested catch situations either.

Sharpe was a precise route runner who caught the ball reliably. IMO, Kupp has a lot more explosion to his game, a lot more physicality, and a lot more ability to come down with contested catches.


I posed my question more as a rhetorical question, but you answered the gist of it as well as you could have. And that's where I'm at with Kupp. He's better than Sharpe, but I'm not sure he's done anything that warrants a massive jump in grade. I've already admitted that you could move Kupp a round or two, and I wouldn't fight too hard. And assuming the Combine confirms what you see on tape, he'll probably move up a bit too. My rankings generally err on the side of caution early on.
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DocHambone


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why so low on Kamara?
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DocHambone wrote:
Why so low on Kamara?


I've touched on him before, but long story short is that I like him I just don't love him. It's a bit alarming that he's never really been the feature back, or even asked to handle the load extensively. He's not a real natural runner between the tackles, especially in comparison to others. He's probably graded a tad lower than he probably should be, but again I usually grade players lower initially than where they end up. Not sure there's anything is going to get him into Day 1, or Early Day 2 though.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm probably going to take some flak on this one, but I'm not sure I love Derek Rivers like some others do. I mean, don't get me wrong he's good but this seems like another small school player that people are overhyping. Admittedly, there's not a ton of video (I think YouTube only has two videos), but he's constantly taking himself out of running plays. To me, he looked notably more explosive standing up than he did with his hand in the dirt. I'm not sure he's a 43 DE at the next level.
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CalhounLambeau


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
I'm probably going to take some flak on this one, but I'm not sure I love Derek Rivers like some others do. I mean, don't get me wrong he's good but this seems like another small school player that people are overhyping. Admittedly, there's not a ton of video (I think YouTube only has two videos), but he's constantly taking himself out of running plays. To me, he looked notably more explosive standing up than he did with his hand in the dirt. I'm not sure he's a 43 DE at the next level.

I like him off the field more than I like him on it. High-cut with a lot of bad habits and lacks the athleticism needed to push him up as an upside guy. I've got him in the fifth round right now.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalhounLambeau wrote:
I like him off the field more than I like him on it. High-cut with a lot of bad habits and lacks the athleticism needed to push him up as an upside guy. I've got him in the fifth round right now.


I'll probably have him in that same range. Watched that UNI game, and that UNI RT was awful. I wouldn't really call Rivers a strong player, but he ran through that UNI RT. Unfortunately, that RT had horrible, horrible footwork and is a pretty bad.

Thoughts on Al-Quadin Muhammad?
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CalhounLambeau


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
Thoughts on Al-Quadin Muhammad?

I don't know what to do with him. I watched him a bit over the summer. His body looked behind schedule. He's completely unreliable off the field. I read a while back he's been working hard to prep for the draft. Whether he gets drafted or not will probably depend on how he does with visits. If you put Derek Rivers' head on his body four years ago you might have a great prospect. My guess is he goes undrafted.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalhounLambeau wrote:
I don't know what to do with him. I watched him a bit over the summer. His body looked behind schedule. He's completely unreliable off the field. I read a while back he's been working hard to prep for the draft. Whether he gets drafted or not will probably depend on how he does with visits. If you put Derek Rivers' head on his body four years ago you might have a great prospect. My guess is he goes undrafted.


That's where I'm at with my evaluation of him. Saw some really special things from the Virginia Tech game last year, and was really interested in seeing how he developed this year and then everything unfolded. Recently saw an image of him on either Instragram or Twitter I think, and he was jacked. Clearly been doing the work in the weight room. There's enough there that I'd probably take a gamble on him somewhere on Day 3.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going through my rankings, let me know if you think anyone is too high or too low.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Less than a month or so to go, I should get my finalized rankings out within the next week or two. And I'll try and create a google doc that everyone can print out and use for the draft if they so desire.
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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CWood21 wrote:
Going through my rankings, let me know if you think anyone is too high or too low.


I think you have Alvin Kamara too low. 2nd round is where I have him.

After Fournette, Cook, Mixon, and McCaffrey...
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