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Is our Defense that bad?
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48 1/2ers


Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Posts: 3181
Location: Northern California
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
y2lamanaki wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
Eric Reid is the most overrated player on this team, but like Fureys said we have so little depth.


Eric Reid is the most underrated player on this team. By the way some comment about him in gameday threads, you'd think we were playing Mark Roman back there again.

He's average. Not terrible like many say. Not great (like nobody says). Hence - he's underrated.

I disagree, I think he's far below average. He was an average safety his rookie and second season but he's not good or even average. He has gotten worse, and was a liability last year.


In fairness, the entire team was a liability last year Laughing

Laughing true
I'll eat my words if Reid shows up next year with a better supporting cast and healthy season.
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Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

48 1/2ers wrote:
Forge wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
y2lamanaki wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
Eric Reid is the most overrated player on this team, but like Fureys said we have so little depth.


Eric Reid is the most underrated player on this team. By the way some comment about him in gameday threads, you'd think we were playing Mark Roman back there again.

He's average. Not terrible like many say. Not great (like nobody says). Hence - he's underrated.

I disagree, I think he's far below average. He was an average safety his rookie and second season but he's not good or even average. He has gotten worse, and was a liability last year.


In fairness, the entire team was a liability last year Laughing

Laughing true
I'll eat my words if Reid shows up next year with a better supporting cast and healthy season.


Weirdly, that has been pretty much his MO. Even in college. The year before he came out, he was a complete and total beast. Looked like a premiere safety prospect. Then the entire LSU defense declared for the draft, leaving him alone, and his last season he looked...meh. I wasn't huge on him coming out.

The sad thing is, he's sitll clearly one of the best picks from the first round of that draft class lol.
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rudyZ


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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Location: Québec
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
Forge wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
y2lamanaki wrote:
48 1/2ers wrote:
Eric Reid is the most overrated player on this team, but like Fureys said we have so little depth.


Eric Reid is the most underrated player on this team. By the way some comment about him in gameday threads, you'd think we were playing Mark Roman back there again.

He's average. Not terrible like many say. Not great (like nobody says). Hence - he's underrated.

I disagree, I think he's far below average. He was an average safety his rookie and second season but he's not good or even average. He has gotten worse, and was a liability last year.


In fairness, the entire team was a liability last year Laughing

Laughing true
I'll eat my words if Reid shows up next year with a better supporting cast and healthy season.


Weirdly, that has been pretty much his MO. Even in college. The year before he came out, he was a complete and total beast. Looked like a premiere safety prospect. Then the entire LSU defense declared for the draft, leaving him alone, and his last season he looked...meh. I wasn't huge on him coming out.

The sad thing is, he's sitll clearly one of the best picks from the first round of that draft class lol.



A lot of safeties totally depend on the defense around them. How many safeties are studs on a bad defense? Personally, I'm totally fine with it, and with Reid. Sure, if we want to have a real playmaker, that's fine. But that's not something you live or die with. The steelers would have had very good defenses with or without Polamalu. But having a good defense and a Polamalu on top makes it great. Put Polamalu on a bad defense, and all we talk about is his hair. I'd focus on generating a pass rush, and then when our D is good, getting a stud safety might put it over the top. Not saying that we should overlook the position. Just saying we can live with Reid. Or Tartt, or Ward. Whoever. Safeties rarely make or break a D, unless they're especially bad. What makes a defense systematically bad is not having a pass rush and being unable to stop the run, in my opinion.
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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
It's pretty bad. Buckner is a stud. Armstead hasn't shown enough at this point. Our nose tackle play was atrocious. Dial is just a guy...he's not special or anything. Could be replaced with a marginal free agent.

Inside linebackers? complete mess. Ray Ray actually looked adequate for a minute, but I'm not relying on that small of a sample size to say he's even average when he has really struggle before. Bowman was great, but now a second serious injury in 4 years, and it typically take a player a second year to fully recover from an achilles injury to be back where he was. Sure, he'll play next year, but I doubt he'll be as good as he was in the past.

Edge rushers? Lynch is hit and miss. There's talent, but I'd say some conditioning issues, and he's not good enough to be a number one pass rusher on a team. Brooks still has a little left in the tank though he won't be here long, so he needs a replacement and he wasn't ever a great pass rusher anyway.

Our corners I'm bullish on - I think that there's a lot to like there with Ward and Robinson. Brock as a 3 is just fine to me, and if Redmond is worth anything, that's a damn fine top 4.

Safety is meh. Reid is basically an average safety. Nothing special. Bethea is old and done. Tartt is a bust. We could use another safety.

Also, Williams is a free agent. We waived him during the year, I believe.

And our offense maybe contributed to it, but the defense was just awful. There's no excuse for how bad they played against the run.


I think this assessment is pretty accurate. Even though you said very little positive about our edge rushers I'm still a little more negative on them than you are. Lynch at his best was a 6 sack guy; last year he was mostly invisible. Brooks will be 33 before the season starts and I don't expect him to be even as good this year as his merely-OK season last year. Harold and Carradine are a waste. We can use as many edge rushers as we can find.
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big9erfan


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
J-ALL-DAY wrote:
Tartt is a bust? I'd hold off on that. Not a game changer yet, but he looks solid thus far. Misses a bit more tackles you would like, but does some good things in coverage.

But either him or Reid need to be better than solid. How much of that is the terrible run defense and ILB play? Not sure, but obviously doesn't allow the safeties to play as aggressive on the back end.


For a second round pick, I consider him a bit of a bust, just because I don't view him as a starting safety. If we utilitzed him in that hybrid nickel linebacker role, and he was specialized in that way, I'd be more forgiving - specialized players can be worth a 2. But it doesn't appear that we are doing that. As a starting safety, however, I find him underwhelming.

I like his coverage in the box coming downhill. Backpedaling and tracking downfield? You can't really be super happy with that right now, are you?


I see Tartt a lot like Barron. He was pretty much a bust. Very high pick that was traded after a couple seasons for only a 4th and a 6th. His career was on the way to being over until they tried him at the hybrid LB role. Maybe there's still hope for Tartt as a safety but I'm not sure about that. He might just be better suited to be a situational LB on passing downs.
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ohiogenius


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would this defense look as a 4-3

Id assume if no one is willing to trade up to 2 the BPA is Jonathan Allen and sign a FA nose tackle like Jonathan Hankins

Buckner -- Hankins -- Allen -- Brooks/Lynch/Armstead

FA SLB - Bowman -- Armstrong

Id assume they could cut Brooks and get a more traditional 4-3 SLB or have DE by committee at RE

Also Armstead could come inside on rushing downs replacing Hankins

EDIT: fixed confusing wording.
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BwickBrownie wrote:
cortes02 wrote:
Would JPP fit in the 3-4??

Peace!!!

If you're referring to fingers on his glove, the answer is yes.


Last edited by ohiogenius on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fureys49ers


Joined: 31 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohiogenius wrote:
How would this defense look as a 4-3

Id assume if no one is willing to trade up to 2 the BPA is Jonathan Allen and sign a FA nose tackle like Jonathan Hankins

Buckner -- Hankins -- Allen -- Brooks/Lynch/Armstead

FA SLB - Bowman -- Armstrong

Id assume they could cut Brooks and get a more traditional 4-3 SLB or have DE by committee at RE where Armstead could come inside on rushing downs replacing Hankins


I wouldn't be mad at it, I assume Armstead would kick inside on passing downs for Hankins is what you were going for but that would be a very formidable DL. Throw in a couple LBs via the draft and FA for depth and im happy, that's looks a lot like the defense i have pictured in my head in a 4-3
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757-NINER


Joined: 08 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
It's pretty bad. Buckner is a stud. Armstead hasn't shown enough at this point. Our nose tackle play was atrocious. Dial is just a guy...he's not special or anything. Could be replaced with a marginal free agent.

Inside linebackers? complete mess. Ray Ray actually looked adequate for a minute, but I'm not relying on that small of a sample size to say he's even average when he has really struggle before. Bowman was great, but now a second serious injury in 4 years, and it typically take a player a second year to fully recover from an achilles injury to be back where he was. Sure, he'll play next year, but I doubt he'll be as good as he was in the past.

Edge rushers? Lynch is hit and miss. There's talent, but I'd say some conditioning issues, and he's not good enough to be a number one pass rusher on a team. Brooks still has a little left in the tank though he won't be here long, so he needs a replacement and he wasn't ever a great pass rusher anyway.

Our corners I'm bullish on - I think that there's a lot to like there with Ward and Robinson. Brock as a 3 is just fine to me, and if Redmond is worth anything, that's a damn fine top 4.

Safety is meh. Reid is basically an average safety. Nothing special. Bethea is old and done. Tartt is a bust. We could use another safety.

Also, Williams is a free agent. We waived him during the year, I believe.

And our offense maybe contributed to it, but the defense was just awful. There's no excuse for how bad they played against the run.


my take on your points...

AA and DeFo are young but in a DISCIPLINED scheme where they are taught and coached to play with proper gap integrity and technique(which O'Neil and his scheme didn't allow for) and not just asked to play the run, on the way to the QB, fans will see they are both going to be force on all three downs. And that's with the hope that we keep the 3-4. If we switch to a even front, I think that transition may stunt hem a little and there may be some growing pains there. Can't think of the guy we signed off waivers from the Eagles(or was it the Pats?) but he flashed some and is worth keeping around for OTAs/mini-camp/TC to see if he continues to develop. I still continue to say that if we stick to the 3-4, that Blair is probably better suited to lose around 10 pounds and play at OLB. I don't think he's strong enough at the point of attack to consistently play as a 5-Tech nor do I think he's a DT in nickel situations. If we move to a 4-3, he may have a home as DE but he'll have to earn it by beating out a 1st or 2nd round draft pick hopefully

I think Dial can be a serviceable NT but is better suited as a back-up. I would want a upgrade there. Purcell is a fringe roster player and not really ideal depth.

Our ILBs are horrid. Bowman is the only capable starter. I know they brought back Armstrong but he's a nickelbacker/STs guy on any decent defense.

Edge rusher is pretty much Lynch and bunch of bums. And Lynch isn't even all that. A power rusher who hasn't really developed into anything else. Harold is not a NFL edge player. Doesn't translate speed to power at all, gets walled off and pushed around way too much. Tank was one of Baalke's(and myself because I LOVED the pick at the time) biggest draft misses. Defintely need an infusion of talent there out on the edge. I think our CBs are great. I think Robinson has a bright future. Brock is a serviceable 2nd/3rd CB and I think Redmond will turn heads as the slot guy once completely healthy. And I STILL like Johnson and is hoping the new staff sees his potential as a CB. Reaser can stick around to see if he develops/ makes the roster. Didn't mention Ward because...

As good of a job I think he does at CB, I will continue to say he could be THAT much better at FS. I still think its his ideal pro position and his move there would allow Reid to move to SS, which I have been asking for awhile now too. I think a Ward/Reid duo has tons of potential. And both together has all the range to cover up for a lot of mistakes elsewhere on the backend.
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EagleDeegle


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What can you guys tell me about Gerald Hodges? I see he's a FA this year and that he put up decent stats. Just curious how he'd fit in as a WLB in a 4-3
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Forge


Joined: 19 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EagleDeegle wrote:
What can you guys tell me about Gerald Hodges? I see he's a FA this year and that he put up decent stats. Just curious how he'd fit in as a WLB in a 4-3


Just a guy to me. Not sure how he'd do in a 4-3, though I don't imagine it'd be an issue.
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