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Elway's got his guy: Vance Joseph new Broncos HC
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thebestever6


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingBishop wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
KingBishop wrote:
I just want to be competitive. I don't want a lay down and die offense that defense has to bail out. I want balance. If Vance can bring that then let's do this.

I guess as long as we don't lay down and die like Vance's Dolphins did in the playoffs and the week prior against New England we will be okay. But we will never have play the Steelers or Patriots to get to the Super Bowl so we should be fine.


I've got nothing



Heinz field is a tough place to play again look at what the Chiefs did week 5 or 6 against the steelers you saw the same result.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncosfan07 wrote:

Not necessarily this forum but Broncos fan base is unbelievably fickle and spoiled. Most of us have barely seen a losing season sorry AKRNA you may be the only one to remember the 60s. But there can definitely be sky is falling moments with the fan base. I heard people think Peyton should come out of retirement.


I was actually going to respond to BB to remind him at least one of us has cheered on this franchise for years when it was the joke of the league. Laughing I must be nuts. I was in my 20's before we had a winning season.

Honestly, the only hire we ever had that really bothered me was Mac. His immaturity and fragile (yet huge) ego were on display from day 1. Also, after finally becoming a model competitive franchise it killed me when he pushed us back to laughing stock status.

This hire is not that. Personally I'm Vance's #1 fan right now and am completely satisfied Elway made the right choice. He's a great business man and knows whats riding on this. Personally I'm glad he's not a great DC or OC. It's an entirely different skillset and not really required to be a good HC.

Go get 'em Vance!
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7DnBrnc53


Joined: 09 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walter Football chimes in on Joseph:

Quote:
Broncos hire HC Vance Joseph: C Grade

Unlike Sean McDermott, Vance Joseph doesn't have much experience as a defensive coordinator. He was a coordinator for just one year in Miami, serving as a defensive backs coach for the 49ers, Texans and Bengals before that. That doesn't necessarily mean he'll be a bad coach, or anything. We've seen positional coaches turn into great head coaches before. Andy Reid is someone who comes to mind.

I was on board with the Joseph hire until I learned that he wasn't going to retain Wade Phillips. That doesn't make any sense to me. Phillips is one of the best defensive coordinators of all time, and the Broncos will be worse without him. I understand that Joseph and Phillips' defensive styles may clash, but then why hire Joseph in the first place? The Broncos should've brought in someone who could work with Phillips.

I'm giving this a "C," but I thought about a C- or D+. Even though Joseph is making a big mistake, this hire could work out.


Also, here is what he says about the McCoy OC hire:

Quote:
Broncos hire OC Mike McCoy: A Grade

I don't like what Vance Joseph is doing as far as his defensive coordinator is concerned, but he's definitely making a great decision on the other side of the ball. He needed to bring in someone who could develop Paxton Lynch, and Mike McCoy can certainly be that person.

McCoy didn't work out as the Chargers' coach, but he did a great job coordinatoring the Broncos from 2009 to 2012. McCoy has often gotten the most out of his quarterbacks, so he'll be able to coach up the raw Lynch and perhaps get him ready to play well by the 2017 opener. I like this hire a lot, and I think it definitely deserves an "A."
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

7DnBrnc53 wrote:
Walter Football chimes in on Joseph:

Quote:
Broncos hire HC Vance Joseph: C Grade

I was on board with the Joseph hire until I learned that he wasn't going to retain Wade Phillips. That doesn't make any sense to me. Phillips is one of the best defensive coordinators of all time, and the Broncos will be worse without him. I understand that Joseph and Phillips' defensive styles may clash, but then why hire Joseph in the first place? The Broncos should've brought in someone who could work with Phillips.

I'm giving this a "C," but I thought about a C- or D+. Even though Joseph is making a big mistake, this hire could work out.

Wait. I thought Vance prefers to run the 1-gap 3-4, and having to coach Miami's 4-3 was why the Dolphins D sucked so much this year, isn't that what I heard all week? I thought that was why losing Wade is not a big deal because we already have the talent in place to run Vance's preferred defense. I also thought Vance wasn't brought in to run the D and was instead going to be a CEO coach?

Were we sold a pile of bull or do these guys at Walter Football, whatever that is, not know what they're talking about?

Quote:
Broncos hire OC Mike McCoy: A Grade

I don't like what Vance Joseph is doing as far as his defensive coordinator is concerned, but he's definitely making a great decision on the other side of the ball. He needed to bring in someone who could develop Paxton Lynch, and Mike McCoy can certainly be that person.

McCoy didn't work out as the Chargers' coach, but he did a great job coordinatoring the Broncos from 2009 to 2012. McCoy has often gotten the most out of his quarterbacks, so he'll be able to coach up the raw Lynch and perhaps get him ready to play well by the 2017 opener. I like this hire a lot, and I think it definitely deserves an "A."

Remind me what QBs has McCoy developed. Jake Delhomme? Matt Moore? Josh McCown? Wow.

McCoy didn't coordinate the offense here in 2009 and 2010, anyone who followed the Broncos even remotely knows it was the Josh McDaniels show those years, during which our offense ranked 20th and 19th, respectively, in scoring. Yeah that was damn fine job he and Mac did here. Maybe these vaunted NFL experts at Walter Football know something we don't. But either Mac ran the offense into the ground and McCoy helped or didn't say anything (like Ellis, Xanders and Russell) as Mac drove the car off the cliff, McCoy ran the offense into the ground or they ran the offense into the ground together.

When McCoy was the OC in full, in 2011, our offense ranked 25th in scoring. In 2012 Peyton Manning came to town and the offense improved to 2nd in scoring. But even with the Star Wars numbers, Fox Ball led to a conservative game plan in the playoffs that included taking a knee in OT and ultimately lose to the Ravens.

Yeah that's a damn fine record Mike McCoy has developing QBs and coordinating elite offenses. Glad these guys at Walter Football agree.
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Last edited by AnAngryAmerican on Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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BroncoBruin


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can assure you the people at Walter Football don't know what they're talking about, often right down to basic football concepts. Vance is a one-gap 3-4 coach.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like anyone who can get the best out of Adam Jones, but be an effective leader.
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DiehardBronxFan


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
broncosfan07 wrote:

Not necessarily this forum but Broncos fan base is unbelievably fickle and spoiled. Most of us have barely seen a losing season sorry AKRNA you may be the only one to remember the 60s. But there can definitely be sky is falling moments with the fan base. I heard people think Peyton should come out of retirement.


I was actually going to respond to BB to remind him at least one of us has cheered on this franchise for years when it was the joke of the league. Laughing I must be nuts. I was in my 20's before we had a winning season.

Honestly, the only hire we ever had that really bothered me was Mac. His immaturity and fragile (yet huge) ego were on display from day 1. Also, after finally becoming a model competitive franchise it killed me when he pushed us back to laughing stock status.

This hire is not that. Personally I'm Vance's #1 fan right now and am completely satisfied Elway made the right choice. He's a great business man and knows whats riding on this. Personally I'm glad he's not a great DC or OC. It's an entirely different skillset and not really required to be a good HC.

Go get 'em Vance!


Make that at least 2 of us!

I was hoping for Toub. I was really nervous about Shannahan (all the past comments about how he relates and interacts with the players, and just lack of experience in general). Vance in my mind is an unkonwn. We simply do not have a way to have insight into the reasons for this hire. Its not about X's and O's - its a ton of intangibles. And anybody who believes they can glean anything about those intangibles from how 1 playoff game went is just grasping at straws because they're dissapointed their favored candidate didn't get selected. We simply don't know.

So - I wish him the best. I actually have zero problem with McCoy as OC. I've said it before - and understand many don't agree with me, I think he's a better OC than HC. He's not Shannahan or Gase. But he's flexible, he'll work with the talent given him instead of dogmatically sticking to an approach that isn't working, and I think he and, hopefully Wade, with their experience and past HC gigs, will form a tremendous support network for the new, young HC.

Vance could be the next wunderkid. He could flame out in 2-3 years (I'm in NY - everyone thought Bowles was a superstar. No, all sorts of talk about not controlling his players, dissension, losing the locker room....). But HC is about being a leader of men, and a CEO. That's the role. Any of us who think we can decide which of these candidates, who have NEVER DONE IT BEFORE, will best be up to the task is just whistling in the wind. If they were a group of existing/ex Head Coaches - sure, we'd have something to go by. But we don't.

So- Good Luck Vance! All of us (with the possible exception of those that seem to hold a grudge against all ex CU players) are rooting for you!
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champ11


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone actually think VJ is pushing Phillips out? Because that off the jump kind of disqualifies that Walter football interpretation.

We really do know a lot more about the intricacies of the situation better than any national writers/bloggers would, honestly.

Danny Kelly, who I really like, wrote about us for the ringer and he pretty much went with the Shanahan is connected to Denver route -

https://theringer.com/hiring-vance-joseph-brings-even-more-uncertainty-to-the-broncos-a4e4e671fc87#.9chxgyw4f
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broncosfan_101


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Quote:
Broncos hire OC Mike McCoy: A Grade

I don't like what Vance Joseph is doing as far as his defensive coordinator is concerned, but he's definitely making a great decision on the other side of the ball. He needed to bring in someone who could develop Paxton Lynch, and Mike McCoy can certainly be that person.

McCoy didn't work out as the Chargers' coach, but he did a great job coordinatoring the Broncos from 2009 to 2012. McCoy has often gotten the most out of his quarterbacks, so he'll be able to coach up the raw Lynch and perhaps get him ready to play well by the 2017 opener. I like this hire a lot, and I think it definitely deserves an "A."

Remind me what QBs has McCoy developed. Jake Delhomme? Matt Moore? Josh McCown? Wow.

McCoy didn't coordinate the offense here in 2009 and 2010, anyone who followed the Broncos even remotely knows it was the Josh McDaniels show those years, during which our offense ranked 20th and 19th, respectively, in scoring. Yeah that was damn fine job he and Mac did here. Maybe these vaunted NFL experts at Walter Football know something we don't. But either Mac ran the offense into the ground and McCoy helped or didn't say anything (like Ellis, Xanders and Russell) as Mac drove the car off the cliff, McCoy ran the offense into the ground or they ran the offense into the ground together.

When McCoy was the OC in full, in 2011, our offense ranked 25th in scoring. In 2012 Peyton Manning came to town and the offense improved to 2nd in scoring. But even with the Star Wars numbers, Fox Ball led to a conservative game plan in the playoffs that included taking a knee in OT and ultimately lose to the Ravens.

Yeah that's a damn fine record Mike McCoy has developing QBs and coordinating elite offenses. Glad these guys at Walter Football agree.


You're getting on a guy for not turning Delhomme, Moore, McCown, Orton, and Tebow into Pro Bowlers?? I think "gotten the most out of quarterbacks" is an extremely fair assessment, because there hasn't been much to get out of any of them. So with the limited quality of QB's he's worked with in mind, we should probably look past pure numbers. The adaptability he showed in Denver, going from Orton to Tebow midseason, working together with Peyton on offensive schemes he'd never coached before, that takes significant coaching ability. That Elway was willing to bring him back after witnessing his work first hand should speak volumes as well.
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broncos67


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few more thoughts after having some time to digest and consume the info on the internet:

My biggest hesitation, by far, is his lack of experience as a coordinator. I'd like to think I've been very consistent on this piece. I think it's easier to ascribe good leadership to someone leading a group of 5-6 DBs as opposed to an entire defensive unit or even a team. I don't doubt that Joseph has leadership qualities which endeared him to Elway, but he hasn't demonstrated high level success using those qualities over a period of time.

My other hesitation here is about something Klis tweeted yesterday that I've been thinking a little bit about, and that is the lack of connection between Joseph and any of the OCs he is interviewing. It does feel as if Elway is guiding the OC search, and while he may have allowed Vance to choose his DC, it certainly doesn't feel like Vance has much say in his OC, considering McCoy and Musgrave have never been even tangentially tied to any coaching staff Joseph has worked on to my knowledge.

I do like that Joseph is young and appears to be respected by his former players. Some of the player quotes on him are more than just general platitudes about leadership- there's some real meat there. I read a few good quotes about Joseph's honesty and his understanding of what players want before they know it themselves. I also saw a quote about Joseph's keen eye for personnel (allegedly) which is something I think we were definitely lacking under Kubiak.

I don't mind that Joseph is a defensive HC. Statistically, I believe they have performed better in the NFL than offensive minded HCs over time. I think AAA is somewhat right in what he's saying- he's just sensationalizing it (sorry Dan). There are some valid questions to point out with Joseph. I also believe it's okay for fans to take a stance on a hire even if they don't fully understand the process, but remember, winning cures all. If fans didn't like him at first, they will as long as Denver wins. I'm going to remain skeptical though. I see some positive traits, but there could be growing pains as he learns how to manage an entire team.

Finally, the nonsense with Wade Phillips has to stop. There's literally zero evidence that if Shanny or Toub was hired as HC they would keep Phillips on. His contract was up, and Elway wanted to give some latitude to his coach to make the DC call. Internet speculation or personal preference as far as DC choice does not equal a reality. I'm sure every coach would have had Wade on the list they submitted as their choices for coordinator, but that doesn't mean he was a shoo in no matter who the coach was. Personally, I'm excited for Joe Woods. Denver has legitimately had one of the best secondaries in NFL history for a two year period that coincides with Woods being here. One year could be an anomaly, but I don't think two years is. And our play actually improved from last year to this year. Woods coaches one of the best units the game has seen, at least recently. Hard to argue there.
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

champ11 wrote:
Does anyone actually think VJ is pushing Phillips out? Because that off the jump kind of disqualifies that Walter football interpretation.

We really do know a lot more about the intricacies of the situation better than any national writers/bloggers would, honestly.

Danny Kelly, who I really like, wrote about us for the ringer and he pretty much went with the Shanahan is connected to Denver route -

https://theringer.com/hiring-vance-joseph-brings-even-more-uncertainty-to-the-broncos-a4e4e671fc87#.9chxgyw4f



Yea, I don't believe for a second he's pushing Wade out. The salary gap makes way more sense to me with the way things are playing out.

Think about it... we hired Vance, immediately hired McCoy as OC without interview. We haven't even announced any interview plans for a DC which is strange, and we haven't named a DC... with that in mind, a lack of noise on this front makes me wonder if that's because they're trying to figure out a contract for Wade.

That's what makes sense to me... but who knows. Its weird that the salary gap report came out, and that there's been zero chatter on an outside DC hire.
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broncofan48


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
champ11 wrote:
Does anyone actually think VJ is pushing Phillips out? Because that off the jump kind of disqualifies that Walter football interpretation.

We really do know a lot more about the intricacies of the situation better than any national writers/bloggers would, honestly.

Danny Kelly, who I really like, wrote about us for the ringer and he pretty much went with the Shanahan is connected to Denver route -

https://theringer.com/hiring-vance-joseph-brings-even-more-uncertainty-to-the-broncos-a4e4e671fc87#.9chxgyw4f



Yea, I don't believe for a second he's pushing Wade out. The salary gap makes way more sense to me with the way things are playing out.

Think about it... we hired Vance, immediately hired McCoy as OC without interview. We haven't even announced any interview plans for a DC which is strange, and we haven't named a DC... with that in mind, a lack of noise on this front makes me wonder if that's because they're trying to figure out a contract for Wade.

That's what makes sense to me... but who knows. Its weird that the salary gap report came out, and that there's been zero chatter on an outside DC hire.


Has McCoy officially been hired? I was under the impression that it's pretty much a given, but still speculation at that
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Wade is out and Woods gets promoted...what would really change about the defense? I am going to get guess, not a whole lot...if I were Woods, I would just coach like Wade did.

As for the offense, I am going to conjure that the offense will improve now that we have a defensive minded coach as HC...there is an inverse relationship there that is as exact as the laws of gravity itself.

Also...I wonder if it is good that VJ doesn't have a long-term tenure as a DC...he isn't set in his ways. In fact, he was a positions coach...so, he probably understands better than anyone to build a cast of characters around him that he leave alone to coach up the players...I like that...surrounds yourself with talent, and then delegate.
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Joe_is_the_best


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncofan48 wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
champ11 wrote:
Does anyone actually think VJ is pushing Phillips out? Because that off the jump kind of disqualifies that Walter football interpretation.

We really do know a lot more about the intricacies of the situation better than any national writers/bloggers would, honestly.

Danny Kelly, who I really like, wrote about us for the ringer and he pretty much went with the Shanahan is connected to Denver route -

https://theringer.com/hiring-vance-joseph-brings-even-more-uncertainty-to-the-broncos-a4e4e671fc87#.9chxgyw4f



Yea, I don't believe for a second he's pushing Wade out. The salary gap makes way more sense to me with the way things are playing out.

Think about it... we hired Vance, immediately hired McCoy as OC without interview. We haven't even announced any interview plans for a DC which is strange, and we haven't named a DC... with that in mind, a lack of noise on this front makes me wonder if that's because they're trying to figure out a contract for Wade.

That's what makes sense to me... but who knows. Its weird that the salary gap report came out, and that there's been zero chatter on an outside DC hire.


Has McCoy officially been hired?
I was under the impression that it's pretty much a given, but still speculation at that
I've been wondering the same thing.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Vance Johnson should be the OC.
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