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Browns Fire DC Horton, Hire Gregg Williams
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ohiogenius


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 5745
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
ohiogenius wrote:
Unless Tyrone Holmes shows up 15-20 lbs heavier hes not a 4-3 RE.

Another guy like Nate Orchard. Probably better suited as a rotational OLB

Cam Johnson is a capable back up who should be resigned at DE #4.

Garrett (Soloman/Barrett if we take Allen)
Ogbah
Nassib
Johnson
Orchard (at least through training camp to see what he has)

Ideally we can trade Orchard to a 3-4 team by showing them the last 4 games of the 2015 season.


Why does Holmes need to gain 20lbs?

I think most of us are talking about using him as a DPR type of a guy and he has plenty of size for that.

Hell, Robert Mathis was a good bit smaller than Holmes and he was just fine.

Well mostly because I would like to develop him into a well rounded 4-3 DE over the next few years and also in case of injury youre not stuck with a person who is a liability in the run game.
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BwickBrownie wrote:
cortes02 wrote:
Would JPP fit in the 3-4??

Peace!!!

If you're referring to fingers on his glove, the answer is yes.
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BleedTheClock


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
Posts: 5383
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohiogenius wrote:
LETSGOBROWNIES wrote:
ohiogenius wrote:
Unless Tyrone Holmes shows up 15-20 lbs heavier hes not a 4-3 RE.

Another guy like Nate Orchard. Probably better suited as a rotational OLB

Cam Johnson is a capable back up who should be resigned at DE #4.

Garrett (Soloman/Barrett if we take Allen)
Ogbah
Nassib
Johnson
Orchard (at least through training camp to see what he has)

Ideally we can trade Orchard to a 3-4 team by showing them the last 4 games of the 2015 season.


Why does Holmes need to gain 20lbs?

I think most of us are talking about using him as a DPR type of a guy and he has plenty of size for that.

Hell, Robert Mathis was a good bit smaller than Holmes and he was just fine.

Well mostly because I would like to develop him into a well rounded 4-3 DE over the next few years and also in case of injury youre not stuck with a person who is a liability in the run game.


But you want to keep Cam Johnson who is bleh in all areas? Holmes has potential. Johnson seems to have peaked...as a below average player.
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BleedTheClock


Joined: 17 Nov 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...regardless, it doesn't matter. We aren't losing games because of our DE #4.

We need more superstars on both sides of the ball.
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LuckyNumber11


Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Posts: 9388
Location: Valley of the Sun
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wondering but was Ray Horton bad for you guys? I remember him being outstanding with the Cards and was a little surprised to see him let go
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ohiogenius


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 5745
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Just wondering but was Ray Horton bad for you guys? I remember him being outstanding with the Cards and was a little surprised to see him let go

His defenses struggled on getting off the field on 3rd down in both his stints in Cleveland.

He is more of a hype/motivator guy than Xs and Os

He would make a good HC over coordinator IMO
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BwickBrownie wrote:
cortes02 wrote:
Would JPP fit in the 3-4??

Peace!!!

If you're referring to fingers on his glove, the answer is yes.
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freakygeniuskid


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Joined: 04 Feb 2007
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Location: Charlotte, NC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohiogenius wrote:
[He is more of a hype/motivator guy than Xs and Os

He would make a good HC over coordinator IMO


I think I actually agree with this. In my opinion, you want your head coach to be a leader, a culture-creator, and a staff-assembler. You want your coordinators to be ace tacticians. I think Horton is more of the first, the players seem to like him and he's got a great attitude, but I've never been impressed schematically by his defenses.
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Browns1987


Joined: 21 Oct 2013
Posts: 2679
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Just wondering but was Ray Horton bad for you guys? I remember him being outstanding with the Cards and was a little surprised to see him let go


He was.
Couldnt cover TEs all season, very bad 3rd down defense, terrible for the first drive, terrible in 2 minutes defense.
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MSURacerDT55


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 7641
Location: 8 mile by way of St. Clair E.99
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohiogenius wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Just wondering but was Ray Horton bad for you guys? I remember him being outstanding with the Cards and was a little surprised to see him let go

His defenses struggled on getting off the field on 3rd down in both his stints in Cleveland.

He is more of a hype/motivator guy than Xs and Os

He would make a good HC over coordinator IMO



Absolutely false, we were soft as baby poo on the field, who the hell was he motivating????

He was the exact opposite, he was schematically behind the times, and it was pretty much all or nothing with him, either we got a 3rd down stop and it was usually because of a safety blitz or you can almost count on the other team converting a 3rd and 22. He didn't motivate a soul, we got punched in the face and pretty much asked for another helping.

Also Horton had a lot to work with guys like Calais Campbell, Darnell Dockett,Daryl Washington, Patrick Peterson, Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes and Rashad Johnson
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LuckyNumber11


Joined: 01 Aug 2011
Posts: 9388
Location: Valley of the Sun
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSURacerDT55 wrote:
ohiogenius wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Just wondering but was Ray Horton bad for you guys? I remember him being outstanding with the Cards and was a little surprised to see him let go

His defenses struggled on getting off the field on 3rd down in both his stints in Cleveland.

He is more of a hype/motivator guy than Xs and Os

He would make a good HC over coordinator IMO



Absolutely false, we were soft as baby poo on the field, who the hell was he motivating????

He was the exact opposite, he was schematically behind the times, and it was pretty much all or nothing with him, either we got a 3rd down stop and it was usually because of a safety blitz or you can almost count on the other team converting a 3rd and 22. He didn't motivate a soul, we got punched in the face and pretty much asked for another helping.

Also Horton had a lot to work with guys like Calais Campbell, Darnell Dockett,Daryl Washington, Patrick Peterson, Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes and Rashad Johnson


Which is essentially what I was trying to get at. Was his failure his own, or mainly due to lack of personnel
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ohiogenius


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 5745
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSURacerDT55 wrote:
ohiogenius wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Just wondering but was Ray Horton bad for you guys? I remember him being outstanding with the Cards and was a little surprised to see him let go

His defenses struggled on getting off the field on 3rd down in both his stints in Cleveland.

He is more of a hype/motivator guy than Xs and Os

He would make a good HC over coordinator IMO



Absolutely false, we were soft as baby poo on the field, who the hell was he motivating????

He was the exact opposite, he was schematically behind the times, and it was pretty much all or nothing with him, either we got a 3rd down stop and it was usually because of a safety blitz or you can almost count on the other team converting a 3rd and 22. He didn't motivate a soul, we got punched in the face and pretty much asked for another helping.

Also Horton had a lot to work with guys like Calais Campbell, Darnell Dockett,Daryl Washington, Patrick Peterson, Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes and Rashad Johnson

Doesnt that prove he isnt and Xs and Os guy. His schemes werent all that great and his play calling wasnt all that diverse.

I have read in the past players love playing for him. Plus he did get a fair amount out of this crap roster than he should have. Most players did improve. Albeit they still sucked

Also you cant motivate a JAG into being anything other than a JAG. Thats where schemes matter.
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BwickBrownie wrote:
cortes02 wrote:
Would JPP fit in the 3-4??

Peace!!!

If you're referring to fingers on his glove, the answer is yes.
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MSURacerDT55


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 7641
Location: 8 mile by way of St. Clair E.99
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LuckyNumber11 wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
ohiogenius wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Just wondering but was Ray Horton bad for you guys? I remember him being outstanding with the Cards and was a little surprised to see him let go

His defenses struggled on getting off the field on 3rd down in both his stints in Cleveland.

He is more of a hype/motivator guy than Xs and Os

He would make a good HC over coordinator IMO



Absolutely false, we were soft as baby poo on the field, who the hell was he motivating????

He was the exact opposite, he was schematically behind the times, and it was pretty much all or nothing with him, either we got a 3rd down stop and it was usually because of a safety blitz or you can almost count on the other team converting a 3rd and 22. He didn't motivate a soul, we got punched in the face and pretty much asked for another helping.

Also Horton had a lot to work with guys like Calais Campbell, Darnell Dockett,Daryl Washington, Patrick Peterson, Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes and Rashad Johnson


Which is essentially what I was trying to get at. Was his failure his own, or mainly due to lack of personnel


His whole livelihood as a coach is based off the talent he has around him, he is the type that needs a lot to get a lot
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bosko1616


Joined: 22 Oct 2010
Posts: 3814
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So do you think chandler jones can play SLB in a 4-3. Reunite him with Collins.

Garrett-Shelton-Cooper-Ogbah
Jones-Collins-Kirksey
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KamTrus20


Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 6833
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bosko1616 wrote:
So do you think chandler jones can play SLB in a 4-3. Reunite him with Collins.

Garrett-Shelton-Cooper-Ogbah
Jones-Collins-Kirksey


No.

He is a 43 DE all the way. He was my favorite player in the Weeden/Richardson draft. I had him pegged as a Top 5 player and took plenty of heat until I believe it was Mayock put him at #9 on his big board. He was an unreal pass rushing threat from a 3 point stance. I don't think he has lived up to what I thought he was going to be even though he is still pretty darn good.
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ohiogenius


Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 5745
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bosko1616 wrote:
So do you think chandler jones can play SLB in a 4-3. Reunite him with Collins.

Garrett-Shelton-Cooper-Ogbah
Jones-Collins-Kirksey

Def hand in the dirt guy

But I remember Patriots fans complain how he disappears in the 2nd half the of the season and this year after he got traded same thing happened. Dominant first half, not so much second

Also Bruce Arians said hes not going anywhere. Either they sign him to a long term contract or they franchise him
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BwickBrownie wrote:
cortes02 wrote:
Would JPP fit in the 3-4??

Peace!!!

If you're referring to fingers on his glove, the answer is yes.
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MSURacerDT55


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 7641
Location: 8 mile by way of St. Clair E.99
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohiogenius wrote:
MSURacerDT55 wrote:
ohiogenius wrote:
LuckyNumber11 wrote:
Just wondering but was Ray Horton bad for you guys? I remember him being outstanding with the Cards and was a little surprised to see him let go

His defenses struggled on getting off the field on 3rd down in both his stints in Cleveland.

He is more of a hype/motivator guy than Xs and Os

He would make a good HC over coordinator IMO



Absolutely false, we were soft as baby poo on the field, who the hell was he motivating????

He was the exact opposite, he was schematically behind the times, and it was pretty much all or nothing with him, either we got a 3rd down stop and it was usually because of a safety blitz or you can almost count on the other team converting a 3rd and 22. He didn't motivate a soul, we got punched in the face and pretty much asked for another helping.

Also Horton had a lot to work with guys like Calais Campbell, Darnell Dockett,Daryl Washington, Patrick Peterson, Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes and Rashad Johnson

Doesnt that prove he isnt and Xs and Os guy. His schemes werent all that great and his play calling wasnt all that diverse.

I have read in the past players love playing for him. Plus he did get a fair amount out of this crap roster than he should have. Most players did improve. Albeit they still sucked

Also you cant motivate a JAG into being anything other than a JAG. Thats where schemes matter.


I disagree, the Patriots do it all the time thats how you get guys like Rob Ninkovich, Urban and pretty much their whole offensive line to play above their means . As far as Horton, like I said, his schemes seem outdated like he's been using Lebeau's scheme's from the late 90's to early 2000's. The players probably love him because he is a quality human being, not a quality defensive coordinator.
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