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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6851
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
It would be a mistake to think we are getting more than 1 rookie to help on the OL for sure - and most likely, that rookie would be a G. Interior OL is easier to step in than the T position, and in this draft, G is way deeper with a few plug and play guys. I also am not a fan of ever reaching for a pick - going 2.50 with a G or RT makes sense because an overall BPA could very well be a G or RT. I actually think trading up to low 40's might be needed to get a top plug and play G, and if so, we should do it. If we want 3 new starters, realistically 2 of them are FA's, and likely even a depth FA is needed for the OL.



Whether we get 1 or 2 OL from the draft is entirely based on our draft preference's. If our FO decides to go all in and use both of our top 50 picks on the OL we'll get two starters.

One of the top 2 LT's and one of the top 3 OG's. If we sign Whitworth that gives our rookie LT a couple of years to adjust to the NFL on the right side before settling in on the left.

Quick example.

LT Whitworth
LG Feeney (probably not Dan, but our 2nd rd pick. Put in the name you prefer)
C Paradis
RG Schofield
RT Ramczyk

So, now you've got two of the best college OL guys merging with a perennial all pro LT, a young Pro bowl OC, and an Ironman RG that won't miss a snap.

Yeah, it'd work. It's just whether or not the FO wants to go that direction.
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BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3751
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree to an extent AKRA. Personally, I think the only plug-and-play OT's in this draft are Cam Robinson and Ryan Ramczyk. And that, based on value inflation, they could both be gone at 1.20. I think either could be both BPA and a need though, if available. They have some great talent.

To secure two starting OL, there is only one avenue IMO. You have to get one of the two OT's mentioned above at 1.20, and then you have to trade up in R2 to snag Quenton Nelson, Dan Feeney or Forrest Lamp. Those are the only plug-and-play OG's in this draft and all three should be gone by our pick in R2 IMO.

So ya, I think we can come out with two starting rookie OL, but the only avenue to do so is taking the above road. And I have no issue with that, and I am not an expert, but the only way I am going into 2017 without sweating about starting a rookie OT and OG is if we secure someone in the above talent pool.
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AKRNA


Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 6851
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
I agree to an extent AKRA. Personally, I think the only plug-and-play OT's in this draft are Cam Robinson and Ryan Ramczyk. And that, based on value inflation, they could both be gone at 1.20. I think either could be both BPA and a need though, if available. They have some great talent.

To secure two starting OL, there is only one avenue IMO. You have to get one of the two OT's mentioned above at 1.20, and then you have to trade up in R2 to snag Quenton Nelson, Dan Feeney or Forrest Lamp. Those are the only plug-and-play OG's in this draft and all three should be gone by our pick in R2 IMO.

So ya, I think we can come out with two starting rookie OL, but the only avenue to do so is taking the above road. And I have no issue with that, and I am not an expert, but the only way I am going into 2017 without sweating about starting a rookie OT and OG is if we secure someone in the above talent pool.


We're in agreement. I mentioned in another post that to go that route we may have to move up a bit but it can be done.

Also, like you I'm tired of the 4th/5th rd guys that we expect something out of rapidly. It rarely happens.

To get quality, 1st year and beyond production you need to invest high picks. Outside of Franklin and Clady we haven't invested a top 50 pick in an O Lineman for decades. That's a trend I'd like to see stop.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3007
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
I agree to an extent AKRA. Personally, I think the only plug-and-play OT's in this draft are Cam Robinson and Ryan Ramczyk. And that, based on value inflation, they could both be gone at 1.20. I think either could be both BPA and a need though, if available. They have some great talent.

To secure two starting OL, there is only one avenue IMO. You have to get one of the two OT's mentioned above at 1.20, and then you have to trade up in R2 to snag Quenton Nelson, Dan Feeney or Forrest Lamp. Those are the only plug-and-play OG's in this draft and all three should be gone by our pick in R2 IMO.

So ya, I think we can come out with two starting rookie OL, but the only avenue to do so is taking the above road. And I have no issue with that, and I am not an expert, but the only way I am going into 2017 without sweating about starting a rookie OT and OG is if we secure someone in the above talent pool.


That's indeed the scenario that could work - but I have to admit, I think we'd be reaching to go Ramczyk at 1.20 as much as I like him a lot. There could be an awesome 3-4 DE there at 1.20 who is clearly a better overall BPA, for example. Or imagine if one of the 2 big LB's fall to 20. I just dislike being pinned in by need.

I do love the idea of our LG being the 2.50 or trading up earlier to get Feeney/Lamp/Nelson. I just don't think we should bank on it. In a lot of ways getting our LT & another starting OL via FA, if the 2nd is a midtier guy like Beatty, might make a lot of sense, and give us the freedom to not reach out of need. That's why I would rather we not be in a position of absolute need that much entering a draft come late April.

P.S. I'm really down on Robinson - IMO relies way more on raw skills than technique. He really showed terrible bend vs. Clemson. If that was a one off I'd be OK with it but it's what I've seen over & over this past season - relying on the size/strength advantage that he won't have in the NFL. I'm terrified he'll fall to us, because standard rankings say wee'd have to take him, I'm kind of praying someone takes that choice away from us.
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3007
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it's not a big reason to have hired him, with Joseph as our HC there's a direct personal link to getting LT Andrew Whitworth to join us, given Joseph's 2014-15 history in CIN. In case people haven't been reading the thread, he's clearly head and shoulders the best FA LT around and despite his age has showed zero signs of decline - rating as a top 5 LT and top 10 OL, rating higher than Joe Thomas, as an example. 3 sacks, 4 hurries and no penalties in his first 13 games (last time PFF published free content). That's elite pass protection and he's just as effective in run blocking.

At his age he won't command a long term deal either so less future risk. I'd be really shocked if we don't get him in the fold barring some family related desire to stay in CIN.

Another CIN link would be RG Kevin Zeitler but he's younger and likely to require a longer deal. Ideally we want a LG and I don't know if he's quick enough to move there but if so that would be a great tandem signing if the $ works. On the MIA front DE Andre Branch and TE Dion Sims could interest us as depth signings although I'd expect Gase wants to retain both and I don't think either should be an an overpay we target (but that Elway tries to overpay at all).
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.


Last edited by Broncofan on Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3751
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With VJ having CIN and MIA connections and McCoy having SD connections, thought I would look at the FA's each team offers and give my imput on the guys that I personally like:

TE Jordan Cameron MIA - He could be a great 'prove it' type signing. One year for super cheap. Kid is a concussion away from a retirement home but who knows. He could payoff big for a small price.

DL Jason Jones MIA - If we jettison Jared Crick, Jones could be a nice pass-rush specialist at 34DE. He isn't stout enough to start, and I wouldn't want two less-than-stout 34DE backups in Jones and Crick, so only like him if we cut Jared.

OT Andrew Whitworth CIN - Simple, clear fit. Elite LT to bridge the gap for two seasons. My top FA priority.

OG Kevin Zeitler CIN - Another great lineman, but likely to cost a ton IMO. I see him getting something like 5 years / 50M. Don't see us getting both Whitworth and Zeitler and IMO LT is harder to fill so the old man is my choice. Still, great player and would tremendously improve our IOL.

NT Domata Peko CIN - Nothing more than a rotation guy at this point, but a guy that could step into NT immediately and provide 2 downs of run stuffing for cheap. Great locker room guy and veteran mentor too. Seems like an Elway signing and I would assume Vance loves him as his personality is pretty popular in that locker room.

DL Margus Hunt CIN - Don't think he is anything more than a flyer, but who knows. VJ coached him for years and if he has an affinity for his potential, you could see him here for a super cheap deal IMO. I don't trust him as more than a #4 34DE, but he has some late bloomer potential.

NT Brandon Thompson CIN - Another D-Lineman who has some potential. Never realized much of it in CIN but a big body that can take up space and has a little burst. Hurt the past two seasons, but produces when he gets on the field. IDK if he is 4-3 limited but another possible cheap get.

RB Danny Woodhead SD - He would add a huge, missing dynamic in our backfield and passing game, but might cost more than we are willing to spend on a RB. I assume McCoy loves the kid, and OC would, and think that this signing could really come seeming out of nowhere and make a lot of people happy, and a lot pretty pissed. We have the $$$ and both CJ and Booker lack the dynamisms of Woodhead. Could be a nice fit to help our young QB develop. Lots of injuries lately though.

ILB Manti T'eo SD - Nothing more than a veteran minimum one year deal, but he could push Todd Davis and a rookie for the second starting ILB spot.

And then one of DJ Fluker and Orlando Franklin are likely to be cut. Gotta assume McCoy would want to look at them. I would welcome Franklin back with open arms. Fluker is less of a sure thing, but worth a shot if its 4-6M and not too guaranteed.
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broncos67


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 23965
Location: Conshohocken
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^

Vance Joseph didn't coach those defense players in Cincy. He was strictly a DB coach.

The only players from the below list I think we should target are Jason Jones, Domata Peko, and Andrew Whitworth.

The rest are either too expensive or not very good.
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elliot878


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Joined: 03 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
Broncofan wrote:
It would be a mistake to think we are getting more than 1 rookie to help on the OL for sure - and most likely, that rookie would be a G. Interior OL is easier to step in than the T position, and in this draft, G is way deeper with a few plug and play guys. I also am not a fan of ever reaching for a pick - going 2.50 with a G or RT makes sense because an overall BPA could very well be a G or RT. I actually think trading up to low 40's might be needed to get a top plug and play G, and if so, we should do it. If we want 3 new starters, realistically 2 of them are FA's, and likely even a depth FA is needed for the OL.



Whether we get 1 or 2 OL from the draft is entirely based on our draft preference's. If our FO decides to go all in and use both of our top 50 picks on the OL we'll get two starters.

One of the top 2 LT's and one of the top 3 OG's. If we sign Whitworth that gives our rookie LT a couple of years to adjust to the NFL on the right side before settling in on the left.

Quick example.

LT Whitworth
LG Feeney (probably not Dan, but our 2nd rd pick. Put in the name you prefer)
C Paradis
RG Schofield
RT Ramczyk

So, now you've got two of the best college OL guys merging with a perennial all pro LT, a young Pro bowl OC, and an Ironman RG that won't miss a snap.

Yeah, it'd work. It's just whether or not the FO wants to go that direction.


This is the exact direction I'd be going in if I were the FO. Sign Whit, draft Ramczyk, and get a plug and play interior lineman in the 2nd... then you have a battle between Garcia/Schofield/McGovern/Cheap FA for one spot. That would be ideal.
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BroncosFan2010


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 3751
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Vance Joseph didn't coach those defense players in Cincy. He was strictly a DB coach.

The only players from the below list I think we should target are Jason Jones, Domata Peko, and Andrew Whitworth.

The rest are either too expensive or not very good.


I understand but he would still be interacting with other guys most likely.

Also, totally agree on the three guys you outlined. Whitworth and Peko are excellent stopgaps and Jones, if Crick is jettisoned, would be an awesome pass rush specialist on the DL.

I am warming to the idea of Woodhead if he isn't too expensive, but his injuries, at his age, almost certainly have left him a few steps slower. IDK, but we could use a threat in his mold, and I don't want to spend a R1 on McCaffery.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
Posts: 3007
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncosFan2010 wrote:
Quote:
Vance Joseph didn't coach those defense players in Cincy. He was strictly a DB coach.

The only players from the below list I think we should target are Jason Jones, Domata Peko, and Andrew Whitworth.

The rest are either too expensive or not very good.


I understand but he would still be interacting with other guys most likely.

Also, totally agree on the three guys you outlined. Whitworth and Peko are excellent stopgaps and Jones, if Crick is jettisoned, would be an awesome pass rush specialist on the DL.

I am warming to the idea of Woodhead if he isn't too expensive, but his injuries, at his age, almost certainly have left him a few steps slower. IDK, but we could use a threat in his mold, and I don't want to spend a R1 on McCaffery.


Even if Joseph didn't coach them directly, the players would all know him well on a personal level, having been there both in 2014 & 2015. They'd also have first-hand info from the DB's on his coaching one-on-one style, which seems to be a really key aspect to his hiring.

Re: other guys, Cameron is one guy that no team should sign. His last concussion is likely a career-ender. The lost opportunity cost of rostering him given the risk isn't worth it. Woodhead isn't a great pickup either, only because the draft is so insanely deep, we could easily get another RB to fill a Woodhead like role for min wage, and for 4 years of control. RB is going to be mega-devalued after this talent influx from the draft this year.
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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Broncofan


Joined: 02 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we are moving to more of a power scheme, that brings in the young G's into play for FA. Larry Warford for DET, and Chance Warmack from TEN.

With a power scheme we probably only need 1 G spot, and if it works out, we might have both G's in-house, but I wouldn't want to count on it - something to consider.
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Broncofan wrote:
If we are moving to more of a power scheme, that brings in the young G's into play for FA. Larry Warford for DET, and Chance Warmack from TEN.

With a power scheme we probably only need 1 G spot, and if it works out, we might have both G's in-house, but I wouldn't want to count on it - something to consider.


Was thinking Warford as soon as we picked up a power guy
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Broncofan


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
Broncofan wrote:
If we are moving to more of a power scheme, that brings in the young G's into play for FA. Larry Warford for DET, and Chance Warmack from TEN.

With a power scheme we probably only need 1 G spot, and if it works out, we might have both G's in-house, but I wouldn't want to count on it - something to consider.


Was thinking Warford as soon as we picked up a power guy


The nice part is I think this will be a relatively decent bargain signing, compared to Zeitler, who rates so highly, he's getting crazy $.

Warford & Whitworth would be a major upgrade. That would then allow us to really get BPA in the draft, and find our RT with less worry about the rest of the line. We will need a LT of the future, so I agree RT is best obtained through the draft (who then moves to LT when Whitworth done).

Whitworth @ LT, a FA power scheme G like Warford/Warmack and a 3-4 DE seem like a great match for our FA targets.
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steelpanther wrote:
This is like playing checkers with a pigeon. No matter how well you play, sooner or later the pigeon is going to crap on the board, then puff his chest out and strut around like he won something.


Last edited by Broncofan on Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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BroncoBruin


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warford may cost 6-7 million. Fine with it. Honestly, the move to a new scheme helps our prospects in free agency, more of the top talent available are a better fit for power football. Lot of great options at guard (Zeitler, Warford, Lang, Leary, Winters, Warmack) and we can move on from Okung and Stephenson.
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jsthomp2007 wrote:
We have to keep in mind that Rob Bironas is dead, but might be an upgrade over McMannus.
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elliot878


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BroncoBruin wrote:
Warford may cost 6-7 million. Fine with it. Honestly, the move to a new scheme helps our prospects in free agency, more of the top talent available are a better fit for power football. Lot of great options at guard (Zeitler, Warford, Lang, Leary, Winters, Warmack) and we can move on from Okung and Stephenson.


Has Warmack finally gotten it figured out?
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