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Joined: 13 Oct 2014
Posts: 407
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bottom line is that we lack defensive talent to compete. We stay in games because our offense allows it. We can't draft to save our lives, unless we're drafting WRs.
Bottom line:
2013 draft- Kenny Vacarro (decent), rest sucked
2014 draft- Brandin Cooks (good), rest sucked
2015 draft- Andrus Peat (wasted pick, should've been Marcus Peters), Stephone Anthony (we'll never know until we trade him to New England and becomes a star), Hau'Oli Kikaha (hurt then, hurt now, hurt forever), PJ Williams (Ronald Darby would've been better)
2016 draft- Sheldon Rankins (good so far), Michael Thomas (WR drafting is not an issue), Vonn Bell (perhaps good), David Onyemata (???)

The point is that we have hit on a few, but missed on too many. Peat, Kikaha, Etc. Were misses. BTW, we spent $36 mill on Fleener, which we could've paid for Danny Trevathan or Olivier Vernon.

Why will next year be different? It won't.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2013
Posts: 8623
Location: Louisiana
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darby was picked a full round before PJ Williams. Vaccaro was a great pick. At least be correct when you try to insult the FO. Otherwise I agree. Laughing


PSN: The_SlayerSaint (PS4)
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Joined: 13 Oct 2014
Posts: 407
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartica4Real wrote:
Darby was picked a full round before PJ Williams. Vaccaro was a great pick. At least be correct when you try to insult the FO. Otherwise I agree. Laughing

My apologies... either way, we need to be more consistent in the draft and FA. There was a time that we loved Micky Loomis. I wonder if his success was more attributed to the success of Ryan Pace. His departure seems to have really hurten our ability to scout talent.
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Mid Iowa

Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 556
Location: Iowa
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartica4Real wrote:
I mean I can give you a couple of reasons. Our D improved this season despite tons of injuries, although it was pretty inconsistent. Still some room for hope. Rankins looked great. Kikaha will hopefully be back. Another draft to get some impact players like Rankins. Cap room for once.

Do I have faith we draft well enough and play FA well enough to matter? Nope. But there's your reason for hope if they do it well.
I somewhat agree here, but what worries me is that the defensive coaching is not going to change, and our defenders (specifically the entire secondary) look so lost and out of position, they're either really stupid, or they're not getting any coaching.

Either way, it doesn't look good, and we know Payton has his man in Denis Allen.

Watching the Atlanta game was a joke. The secondary were running in circles, literally, not knowing where to be on the field, or what coverage they were in/who to cover when a receiver made a cut. Results, Matt Ryan made them look like Alabama playing (name your local community college football team here).

Let's have this discussion again next January, when we're getting ready to just watch the playoffs again.
~courtesy of the weak minded
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Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 5781
Location: Boston
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly our drafting hasn't been THAT bad. I don't think theres a team in the league that hits on all their draft picks every year. What's plagued us is that we rarely have a full slew of draft picks heading into a draft, let alone more. Take a look at all our draft picks since 2006, especially some of our late rounders.

2006 - Amazing
1(2) - Reggie Bush - Not a franchise player by any means but was a huge weapon for us for a few years.
2(43) - Roman Harper - Don't really need to say much here. Yes he was frustrating to watch in coverage at times, but he's been a great player for us for many years.
4(108) - Jahri Evans - Has fallen off but gave us 7+ years of top level Guard play. Huge hit in the 4th
5(135) - Rob Ninkovich - Great draft pick and value...too bad New England has been able to enjoy it all
6(171) - Mike Hass - Who?
6(174) - Josh Lay - Wasted pick, but hey its the 6th round
7(210) - Josh Strief - A 7th round pick that has started on and off for a decade for us. Pretty damn good value here
7(252) - Marques Colston - No need to say anything

2007 - Mostly Misses
1(27) - Robert Meachem - Was a great deep threat for a few years for us, but never became a complete WR like a 1st rounder should. Will never forget when Brees threw that pick to the Redskins and he stripped the ball from the DB and then ran it back for a TD.
3(66) - Usama Young - We were all really pumped about this guy. Tons of potential but that potential never developed
3(8Cool - Andy Alleman - Was a backup for a while then idk what happened to him
4(107) - Antonio Pittman - lol
4(125) - Jermon Bushrod - Fantastic pick here, left us for $$ in Chicago
5(145) - David Jones - meh
7(220) - Marvin Mitchell - backup

2008 - Decent
1(14) - Sedrick Ellis - Bust
2(40) - Tracy Porter - Was a very good corner for us and a huge reason why we have a SB trophy. Still playing at a high level for Chicago
5(144) - DeMario Pressley - Think he had a few decent moments but overall will be forgotton about
5(164) - Carl Nicks - Continues our trend of absolutely nailing the late round lineman picks. Probowl Guard left for more $$ in Tampa
6(178) - Taylor Mehlhaff - lol
7(237) - Adrian Arrington - The original Brandon Coleman

2009 - Boom
1(14) - Malcolm Jenkins - Arguably one of the biggest mistakes we've made this decade is letting Jenkins go for Byrd. Jenkins has played like a top 5 safety ever since in Philly
4(116) - Chip Vaughn - Dude was dope and added me on Facebook Laughing Never did ish for our team tho
4(118) - Stanley Arnoux - Dope name, wack game
5(164) - Thomas Morstead - Top 5 punter in the league since we drafted him

2010 - Decent
1(32) - Patrick Robinson - Could never put it together, but played solid until his contract expired. Not sure where he is now
2(64) - Charles Brown - Was a solid rotational backup OL, never panned out to be a starter like they had hoped
3(95) - Jimmy Graham - Very Happy
4(123) - Al Woods - Never did ish for us but is now the starting NT for the Titans. Good value
5(158) - Matt Tennant - No clue what happened to him, wasted pick
7(239) - Sean Canfield - We're pretty bad at drafting QBs oh well

2011 - Weird draft where we hit on 1st rounders, missed on late rounders
1(24) - Cam Jordan - Probowl SNUB this year! Has arguably been our best player on the team the past two seasons
1(2Cool - Mark Ingram - Finally we got another 1000 yard rusher after Deuce. Wonder what numbers he could put up if we really committed to the run
3(72) - Martez Wilson - Played some decent football for us but ended up ultimately busting. Plays in the CFL now
3(8Cool - Johnny Patrick - Another miss on a CB. Was cut after two seasons, had one good season for the Chargers and now plays in the CFL
7(226) - Greg Romeus - Bust
7(243) - Nate Bussey - Bust

2012 - The punishment draft
3(89) - Akiem Hicks - Good pick, athletic freak. Looked like a future star at time for us in his first 3 years. Year 4 fell out of favor and traded to Pats. Cashed in with Bears and is now a solid starter for them who won DPOW this year.
4(122) - Nick Toon - Eventual bust
5(162) - Corey White - Was a very frustrating player to watch. Gave up a lot of big plays but also played some solid football at times. Now a part time starter for Bills
6(179) - Andrew Tiller - who?
7(234) - Marcel Jones - had a sick fro

2013 - Boom
1(15) - Kenny Vaccaro - Lot of debate on him. At times has looked like our best defender and at times looks lost. Played great this season
3(75) - Terron Armstead - Talk about boom, now a top LT in the NFL
3(82) - Jon Jenkins - Full time starter in 2015 before falling behind Fairley, Rankins, Onyemata and Davison this year. Cut and now on Seahawks
5(144) - Kenny Stills - Dope deep threat, got a 3rd rounder and Ellerbe for him. Good pick
6(182) - Rufus Johnson - meh

2014 - Weak
1(20) - Brandin Cooks - Great pick
2(5Cool - SJB - Disappointing
4(126) - Khairi Fortt - Bust
5(167) - Vinnie Sunseri - Good ST player and backup S
5(169) - Ronal Powell - ST and backup
6(202) - Tavon Rooks - bust

2015 - Undecided
1(13) - Andrus Peat - Still has potential to be a great player, but its not looking good after 2 years. Definitely better players we could have taken here
1(31) - Stephone Anthony - Huge rookie year, terrible second year. Not sure what to make of him yet.
2(44) - Hau'oli Kikaha - Same as Anthony. Great pass rusher, huge first year. Hopefully he can come back from his injury
3(75) - Garret Grayson - Not good
3(7Cool - PJ Williams - Hasn't been able to stay healthy
5(149) - Davis Tull - Inured backup so far
5(154) - Tyeler Davison - Has actually been part of a great DT rotation so far. Big part of why we released Jenkins
5(167) - Damian Swann - Has played a lot of important minutes due to injuries. For a 5th rounder has been a good pick for the value
7(23) - Marcus Murphy - Explosive returner with fumbling issues. TBD

2016 - Boom Boom Boom
1(12) - Sheldon Rankins - Started the season late due to injury but came in and has immediately made an impact. Can't wait to see him next season.
2(47) - Michael Thomas - 92 rec 1100+ yards and 9TDs speak for themself. Arguably a top-5 rookie performance by a WR
2(61) - Vonn Bell - As a rookie took Byrd's job for a bit. Has looked great at times and has made rookie mistakes, but overall looks to be part of our future
4(120) - David Onyemata - Looks to be a good rotational player for us moving forward
7(237) - Daniel Lasco - Got carries as a rookie but didnt see enough to make any judgements. Good on ST

Lets not forget our hits on UDFA. We might not be the best drafting team, but I'd say this shows were at least middle of the pack. Our real problem is signing players in FA.

Adopt A Saint 2016
WR Michael Thomas 92 catches 1,137 yards 9 TDs
SS Kenny Vaccaro 68 tackles 1 sack 2 FF 1 FR 2 INT 5 PD
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Joined: 26 Jan 2013
Posts: 8623
Location: Louisiana
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Agreed. I think guys like Cam Jordan succeed despite the coaches and not because of them.


We have been an average-ish team at drafting I'd say. People oversell how bad it's been, but man when we miss? We REALLY miss.

Also it's because we're so good at drafting offense that it boosts us up a little. We're terribad at drafting and developing defensive talent. Since the 2011 draft we've had 36 picks. 23 have been defense. Rankins, Bell, and Onyematta too early to judge but good early signs. Outside of that the only ones that have been genuine GOOD picks? Cam Jordan and Kenny Vaccaro. That's it. Other players were decent at best or left (Akiem Hicks).

I do feel very good about Rankins and feel like he'll be added to this list. Kikaha probably would if he could ever stay healthy, but there's your issue. So yeah that's not a good rate. Compared to our offensive drafting... Ingram, Armstead, Stills, and Thomas all big hits out of only 13 offensive players (yes Stills isn't here but he was flipped for a great deal). Peat... could've been better but he was decent at LG this season. 4/13 offensive picks being genuinely great picks though is a pretty solid rate. We extend it to "decent picks" and another 2 or 3 of those gets added. ~50% hit rate is not bad at all, we just suck so much at defense.


PSN: The_SlayerSaint (PS4)
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