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Apollo Stallion


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
amazingandre wrote:
KingTitan wrote:
I really did like Savage coming out of Pitt. Couldn't be any worst than Brock. Appears to be a very good move.

Wonder what will happen with Brock going forward.
Most expensive Back-up ever going forward into next season or cut him outright?


I think we will try like hell to trade him. IF SAVAGE plays well enough.

I think we would be ok with Savage, Weeden and a rookie


Cutting or trading him = $25 MILLION cap hit. Best we can do is designate him a post-June 1 release and have a $19 million cap hit in 2017 and $6 million cap hit in 2018. Weeden is already overpriced as a 34 year old with a 6-19 career record and 76 rating counting $2.1 against the cap. We still would need another backup and even a career backup like Chase Daniel drew a $21 million deal last offseason and damaged starters like RG3 & Foles drew $15 & $12 million on 2 year deals.

Any scenario cripples our chances to improve the roster outside of the draft and ensures John Simon, AJ Bouye, and other pending FA's are goners. Trading for Garroppolo would have made some sense, but it's going to take a 2017 2nd rounder and another high 2018 pick to get him and since we need all of our picks just to fill the roster due to the massive dead space Ossy (and Cushing) will create, I don't see it happening. Heck, bringing in Romo would have been an option, but he's going to cost at least the $12 million Fitz got.

Savage was a massive improvement over Ossy for 3 quarters, but there is a reason 6 other QBs have started ahead of him over the past 3 years. There have been some nice glimpses of potential, but even Ossy played pretty well at home this season until this week and unlike Savage and the others behind our duct tape o-lines he has at least been durable. I was pleasantly surprised to see Savage get up from a few hits already, but I'm not even going to think about him being our QB next year, until he makes it thru the next 3 weeks without suffering another season ender.


Trading him is only $9 million against the cap. We'd be responsible for prorated bonus but not guaranteed salary. The $16 million would follow him to the receiving team

And cutting Cushing leaves only about $4 million dead. Not a pittance but not massive.


You people are amazing. Ossy's signing is already going down as one of the 2-3 worst in NFL history and should result in his GM finally getting fired (but wont - because Texans fans are content competing for our Conf USA level AFC South crowns and ignore our 3-6 record outside division this year, 4-6 last, 5-5 year before). There is not a GM in the world dumb/crazy enough to take on Brock Osweiler for more than $3-$4 million back up level, better yet take $16 million guaranteed salary. Teams could have had Kaep for $13 million this year and he took a team to a 2 NFC Championship games & a Super Bowl and didn't draw even a sniff. Tom Brady costs $14 million next year folks!

Only possible trade scenario would be for us to convert most of the guaranteed salary into signing bonus that we would eat leaving whoever brings him in able to do it for $3-$4 million with us eating $13 million in converted salary + $9 million bonus ($22 million cap hit). And that is contingent on him agreeing to new terms which he has little incentive to do unless he has a better chance to start - which means a team with a worse starter than Tom Savage. At this point even that makes very little sense as Ossy value is absolutely squat, so we'd probably have to also include some draft picks or take on someone else's bad contract to provide any incentive to take on this albatross. Need to just hold our noses and accept we have a $19 million backup for 2017 and will take a $6 million hit in 2018 to dump him (btw Clowney & Mercilus make $6 million each this season, so don't write off $6 million as chump change).

You people just aren't getting just how colossal a failure this is by our front office - giving $37 million guaranteed to a player you want off your roster after 1 year is absolutely unprecedented. The Albert Haynesworth deal is generally regarded as the worst in NFL history, but even HE started for 2 seasons for his $41 million guarantee and was once a great player who earned the contract, he just lost interest and like so many others wasn't going to put his body on the line for a Mike Shanahan coached team. Worst QB deal ever is Culter's renewal, but he has stuck around long enough to where they get to toss him aside this offseason for a mere $2 million hit. We're looking at taking a hit 10 - 12.5 times that!
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Last edited by Apollo Stallion on Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amazingandre


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
mse326 wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
amazingandre wrote:
KingTitan wrote:
I really did like Savage coming out of Pitt. Couldn't be any worst than Brock. Appears to be a very good move.

Wonder what will happen with Brock going forward.
Most expensive Back-up ever going forward into next season or cut him outright?


I think we will try like hell to trade him. IF SAVAGE plays well enough.

I think we would be ok with Savage, Weeden and a rookie


Cutting or trading him = $25 MILLION cap hit. Best we can do is designate him a post-June 1 release and have a $19 million cap hit in 2017 and $6 million cap hit in 2018. Weeden is already overpriced as a 34 year old with a 6-19 career record and 76 rating counting $2.1 against the cap. We still would need another backup and even a career backup like Chase Daniel drew a $21 million deal last offseason and damaged starters like RG3 & Foles drew $15 & $12 million on 2 year deals.

Any scenario cripples our chances to improve the roster outside of the draft and ensures John Simon, AJ Bouye, and other pending FA's are goners. Trading for Garroppolo would have made some sense, but it's going to take a 2017 2nd rounder and another high 2018 pick to get him and since we need all of our picks just to fill the roster due to the massive dead space Ossy (and Cushing) will create, I don't see it happening. Heck, bringing in Romo would have been an option, but he's going to cost at least the $12 million Fitz got.

Savage was a massive improvement over Ossy for 3 quarters, but there is a reason 6 other QBs have started ahead of him over the past 3 years. There have been some nice glimpses of potential, but even Ossy played pretty well at home this season until this week and unlike Savage and the others behind our duct tape o-lines he has at least been durable. I was pleasantly surprised to see Savage get up from a few hits already, but I'm not even going to think about him being our QB next year, until he makes it thru the next 3 weeks without suffering another season ender.


Trading him is only $9 million against the cap. We'd be responsible for prorated bonus but not guaranteed salary. The $16 million would follow him to the receiving team

And cutting Cushing leaves only about $4 million dead. Not a pittance but not massive.


You people are amazing. Ossy's signing is already going down as one of the top 5 worst in NFL history and should result in his GM finally getting fired (but wont - because Texas fans are ignorant). There is not a GM in the world dumb enough to take on Brock Osweiler for more than $3-$4 million back up level, better yet $16 million. Only possible trade scenario would be for us to convert most of the guaranteed salary into signing bonus that we would eat leaving whoever brings him in able to do it for $3-$4 million with us eating $13 million in converted salary + $9 million bonus ($22 million cap hit). At this point even that makes very little sense as Ossy value is absolutely squat, so we'd probably have to also include some draft picks or take on someone else's bad contract to provide any incentive to take on this albatross.

You people just aren't getting just how colossal a failure this is by our front office - giving $37 million guaranteed to a player you want off your roster after 1 year is absolutely unprecendented. The Albert Haynesworth deal is generally regarded as the worst in NFL history, but even HE started for 2 seasons for his $41 million guarantee and was once a great player who earned the contract, he just lost interest and like so many others wasn't going to put his body on the line for a Mike Shanahan coached team. Worst QB deal ever is Culter's renewal, but he has stuck around long enough to where they get to toss him aside this offseason for a mere $2 million hit. We're looking at taking a hit 10 - 12.5 times that!


I think most fans realize the mistake, but the ignorance shown by mcnair over and over again towards Rick has us fans trying to find a solution to the problem. Sadly there isn't one.

The reality is, Brock will remain on the team as the most expensive backup ever next year (assuming Savage plays well) and we can HOPE Rick is moved to another role besides GM. McNair is not going to like the embarrassment from this deal. He has to do something to Rick, but firing him isn't likely. The only hope we have is he gets moved to a non football related job title.
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mse326


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
mse326 wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
amazingandre wrote:
KingTitan wrote:
I really did like Savage coming out of Pitt. Couldn't be any worst than Brock. Appears to be a very good move.

Wonder what will happen with Brock going forward.
Most expensive Back-up ever going forward into next season or cut him outright?


I think we will try like hell to trade him. IF SAVAGE plays well enough.

I think we would be ok with Savage, Weeden and a rookie


Cutting or trading him = $25 MILLION cap hit. Best we can do is designate him a post-June 1 release and have a $19 million cap hit in 2017 and $6 million cap hit in 2018. Weeden is already overpriced as a 34 year old with a 6-19 career record and 76 rating counting $2.1 against the cap. We still would need another backup and even a career backup like Chase Daniel drew a $21 million deal last offseason and damaged starters like RG3 & Foles drew $15 & $12 million on 2 year deals.

Any scenario cripples our chances to improve the roster outside of the draft and ensures John Simon, AJ Bouye, and other pending FA's are goners. Trading for Garroppolo would have made some sense, but it's going to take a 2017 2nd rounder and another high 2018 pick to get him and since we need all of our picks just to fill the roster due to the massive dead space Ossy (and Cushing) will create, I don't see it happening. Heck, bringing in Romo would have been an option, but he's going to cost at least the $12 million Fitz got.

Savage was a massive improvement over Ossy for 3 quarters, but there is a reason 6 other QBs have started ahead of him over the past 3 years. There have been some nice glimpses of potential, but even Ossy played pretty well at home this season until this week and unlike Savage and the others behind our duct tape o-lines he has at least been durable. I was pleasantly surprised to see Savage get up from a few hits already, but I'm not even going to think about him being our QB next year, until he makes it thru the next 3 weeks without suffering another season ender.


Trading him is only $9 million against the cap. We'd be responsible for prorated bonus but not guaranteed salary. The $16 million would follow him to the receiving team

And cutting Cushing leaves only about $4 million dead. Not a pittance but not massive.


You people are amazing. Ossy's signing is already going down as one of the 2-3 worst in NFL history and should result in his GM finally getting fired (but wont - because Texans fans are content competing for our Conf USA level AFC South crowns and ignore our 3-6 record outside division this year, 4-6 last, 5-5 year before). There is not a GM in the world dumb/crazy enough to take on Brock Osweiler for more than $3-$4 million back up level, better yet take $16 million guaranteed salary. Teams could have had Kaep for $13 million this year and he took a team to a 2 NFC Championship games & a Super Bowl and didn't draw even a sniff. Tom Brady costs $14 million next year folks!

Only possible trade scenario would be for us to convert most of the guaranteed salary into signing bonus that we would eat leaving whoever brings him in able to do it for $3-$4 million with us eating $13 million in converted salary + $9 million bonus ($22 million cap hit). And that is contingent on him agreeing to new terms which he has little incentive to do unless he has a better chance to start - which means a team with a worse starter than Tom Savage. At this point even that makes very little sense as Ossy value is absolutely squat, so we'd probably have to also include some draft picks or take on someone else's bad contract to provide any incentive to take on this albatross. Need to just hold our noses and accept we have a $19 million backup for 2017 and will take a $6 million hit in 2018 to dump him (btw Clowney & Mercilus make $6 million each this season, so don't write off $6 million as chump change).

You people just aren't getting just how colossal a failure this is by our front office - giving $37 million guaranteed to a player you want off your roster after 1 year is absolutely unprecedented. The Albert Haynesworth deal is generally regarded as the worst in NFL history, but even HE started for 2 seasons for his $41 million guarantee and was once a great player who earned the contract, he just lost interest and like so many others wasn't going to put his body on the line for a Mike Shanahan coached team. Worst QB deal ever is Culter's renewal, but he has stuck around long enough to where they get to toss him aside this offseason for a mere $2 million hit. We're looking at taking a hit 10 - 12.5 times that!


I wasn't saying we could I was correcting YOUR mistake. don't get all pissy just because I pointed it out or try to cover it up with some made up and trade would need yada yada yada.

There is no doubt this is one of the biggest failures I can remember and definitely the biggest for this team. That doesn't change your error.

My "made up trade scenerio" was the Browns, where we essentially pay them to take the salary. Something like Brock and a mid round pick for their 7th round pick. They have the salary room that it doesn't hurt much and they improve their draft pick. I know there is basically zero chance it they would do it.

But again trust me. I am well aware what a failure it was and how screwed we are with it. And I've been with you calling for Smith's head for years so I'm not sure what this whole "you people" thing is.
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Pastor Dillon


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Savage can fix our prime time curse and get us a win this week, then I will more than happily give him the green light for next season right now.
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PAtexansFAN99


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, luckily we're paying Savage peanuts. If you add together what all of our QBs made this year relative to other teams' QBs (as a whole) I bet we're in the bottom half of the league (dunno how to calculate that). If you think of it that way, the Ossy contract isn't so bad. Also, call me crazy, but I kind of like having Brock around. He showed (albeit painfully slow) improvement throughout the season, and should improve similarly to the rest of our team over time. We don't HAVE to pay Savage next year even, so we could theoretically afford to keep all of our QBs. Who knows, Brock might even agree to a restructure. He's still got upside, he could develop in OBs system and work his way back into the starting lineup.

And history tells us that when the time comes to clearly dump Osweiler (hopefully because Tom Savage wins Superbowl MVP Laughing ) Rick Smith will hold onto him, and insist that we "like our QBs", and that he has value (which he does). You can knock Rick Smith all you want, but he can trade a QB (Schaub, Keenum twice, Fitz, Yates), and Brock's contract will continually grow less detrimental over time with the constantly increasing salary cap and the fact that Brock Osweiler's contract was not a record breaking type deal. AND, just wait until someone's starter gets hurt in TC (i.e. Bridgewater this year). Like is said in the Jags gameday thread, I think Brock is an easy sell to several prospective fan bases.

You can't be right all the time (Smith also drafted Savage which seems to have been a good idea). We can recover from this similarly to how Seattle recovered from the Matt Flynn debacle, if Savage turns out to be our Wilson.
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mse326


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bill-obrien-could-have-lost-texans-locker-room-had-he-stuck-with-brock-osweiler/

Quote:
In reality, O'Brien may have made the move earlier if not for Savage's elbow injury, with the quarterback missing several weeks of practice. The coaching staff has been high on him for years, and he has a better knowledge of the offense and a bigger arm than Osweiler. Osweiler was pursued heavily by ownership with the coaching staff having a minimal role, sources said, and even with him due $37 million guaranteed through the 2017 season, the decision to go to Savage was highly popular in the locker room.


I don't have any good reason to say why but I believe that BOB would have made the move earlier if not for the Savage injury.

The bolded, if true, pisses me off. But I'm also not sure how much I do. I mean we all kind of know that BOB wasn't even consulted, but I don't see McNair not following butt buddy Smith's lead.
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Pastor Dillon


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bill-obrien-could-have-lost-texans-locker-room-had-he-stuck-with-brock-osweiler/

Quote:
In reality, O'Brien may have made the move earlier if not for Savage's elbow injury, with the quarterback missing several weeks of practice. The coaching staff has been high on him for years, and he has a better knowledge of the offense and a bigger arm than Osweiler. Osweiler was pursued heavily by ownership with the coaching staff having a minimal role, sources said, and even with him due $37 million guaranteed through the 2017 season, the decision to go to Savage was highly popular in the locker room.


I don't have any good reason to say why but I believe that BOB would have made the move earlier if not for the Savage injury.

The bolded, if true, pisses me off. But I'm also not sure how much I do. I mean we all kind of know that BOB wasn't even consulted, but I don't see McNair not following butt buddy Smith's lead.


its possible that the ownership was frustrated with BOB's open door at QB for the first two seasons so they went out and got the best guy they could. For what its worth, Brock was widely considered the best of what was available. They just over paid like crazy.

but if they werent going to consult the coach on a big signing they should have just fired him.
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jch1911


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've said (as well as others) that the Ossy signing (like Ed Reed) was McNair's call.

So those saying Rick is going to get fired for that one... I just don't see it (right now). It was a colossal mistake, but one that Bob knows falls squarely on him.

And oh yeah, not consulting the chef on the ingredients is always a bad recipe. Wink
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Pastor Dillon


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well his first start gets him a C-

it would be a D, but he didnt turn the ball over, so ill give him a passing grade for now
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pastor Dillon wrote:
well his first start gets him a C-

it would be a D, but he didnt turn the ball over, so ill give him a passing grade for now


Yep, if the goal was to find QBs who can beat the Bengals, Rick Smith would be a Hall of Famer. Two more games like that and Savage may rise to legendary TJ Yates status.

Somebody needs to get the folks at Pro Football Focus to come up with a next gen Yates stat to compare relative success of Yates beating a 12-4 Bengals team 10 to 6 vs. Savage beating a 5-9-1 Bengals team 12 to 10.

Next correlation would be to apply that factor to the relative value of the deposed "big armed" starters they replaced (Ryan Mallett & Brock Osweiler). Then apply factor to energy consumed by Texans fans & media blaming Texans problems on reviled limp noodled starters (Ryan Fitzpatrick, Brian Hoyer, Matt Schaub). Adjust value by the 3 quarters "replacement x" performed better than starter against inferior opponent and quarters required for "fan favorite backup x" to regress below mean starter performance (Savage, Mallett, Keenum). Slight rounding required to account for Matt Leinart getting hurt 2 quarters into his "savior ascent phase" precluding the "slow steady descent into hellish proof of previous 3rd stringer status phase."

We can probably exclude Weeden, Delhomme, Grossman, Garcia, Orlavsky, Banks since any "hope factor" had already been removed by their status as long deposed starters riding out their final employable seasons as 3rd stringers/late season filler. Leave Ragone, Brink, and Henson off as zero impact draft picks. A special one time "Rosencopter" adjustment must be made to for the incalculable speed at which a single play brought Texan fan love of backup QBs to the ground and ushered in an unprecedented 3 seasons of support for a starting QB.

Not quite sure Savage has really exceeded inclusion in this calculation as victories over Jags and Bengals practice squad should barely count for more than pre-season victories, but I'm sure him beating Matt Cassel and the Titans practice squad will elevate him to Yates level hero status until perhaps Yates himself or Matt McGloin again prove the folly of this entire exercise (with the value of a win vs. loss over the Dolphins or Raiders differing by mere fractions).

I shall dub my equation "Apollo's Paradox" as the problem is that until we are trying to solve a problem more substantial than "AFC South Champion" which holds a value of ".000001" and defines success as a relative measure multiplied by lowest denominator franchises like Jets, Bengals, Bills, Raiders, Rams, Dolphins, the answer is still just Texans = Browns + 1. Until we begin rejecting the crown of "King Midget" we will remain in this doom loop of measurement that has us no closer to being champions than we were when David Carr wore his "halo" around here pacifying our QB ignorant populace. The only thing more pathetic than taking pride in a AFC South crown that comes without a single victory over a team with a winning record is being excited to be in a position where the broken legs of Derek Carr, Mariota, and Tannehill actually factor into our equation.
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