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How radical are you willing to go?
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Desperado82


Joined: 20 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it was a nice haul...a lot of the players from those 90s teams agree that Irvin was a huge part in the team winning like it did. His intensity and energy inspired guys around him to be better.

Dez gives us that type of player and I'd really hate to lose him.
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Rtnldave


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Rtnldave wrote:
snip


I don't consider anyone under the age of 30 (Carr / Lee) to be past their prime nor close to passing it. So we disagree.

Witten, while an Ironman will retire at somepoint. Pablo will be fine in his stead. We won't always have a HOFer at the TE position. Same with Romo, only we do need his replacement sooner rather than later.

I also don't think we need all of the DL spot. We might. If Melton can bounce back and Law sucks. And I value S position as the lowest (DAMN YOU TUNA!) so I am not concerned getting a 1st rounder to play the spot.

Ultimately two things need to happen. The you guys need to develop and show they are worth a damn. If they don't then we are back to square one. If they do then we need to continue to enhance positions. The roster turnover has been crazy.

Our OL is 23 on average - the Studs anyways. They should have over a decade of great play ahead of them. I am in no rush to look for the quick fix. I think that's in large part what got us in this mess (IE Roy Williams). I want us to develop our players and not have someone else reap the rewards for our impatience. So I don't agree with your two options. What if we get all those picks and the draft ends up being filled with the talent equivalent to the 2009 draft? Quantity isn't always better.

Right now we have an Elite player in Dez. Moreso, we have an elite player who isn't a disgruntle diva. Players like that are rare. I don't just go trading them for assets. Not saying that the right offer can't come around - but it would take a lot and it is not something I'd really consider at this point.

Realistically we should not with the SuperBowl this year. That doesn't mean they can;t make that jump - it is just simply unlikely.

We need depth. A lot of young guys are gonna get some critical reps this year to prove their mettle. Seattle DL doesn't have Suh or McCoy - but they have a hell of a rotation. Depth matters.



While I agree with you that we are in disagreement, and that is fine, I do want to correct you on one or two points, If I may?

Point number one: The plan I am advocating is by no means a "quick fix." It would mean finishing poorly this season (which everyone expects anyway), making the trade, and drafting over the next 2 to 3 years with the intention of having guys closer in age, younger, and allowing them the time to grow together so that in 4 or 5 years time from now, all of our pieces are in place and ready to make a series of legitamite runs for a championship.

Point number two: you had mentioned a poor talent base like 2009. True, that may happen, but that is why I am looking at multiple years of drafting with multiple picks in the higher rounds.

So I am looking to be competitvie around 2017-2018 and up. Just where would Dez be by that time in his career? I know you or I cannot really answer that question accuratley but it would put him at 7 or 8 years in the league AND we would not have the benefit of multiple picks in the high rounds leading up to that point. Which means we would not realistically have enough quality picks to fill all of our needs on defense, at the QB position, by then the RB position and possibly TE. But we would still have Dez.

I don't know man, I watched Ware, Witten, and other players of that caliber stay here for 10 plus years and get nothing for it but personal records. And in the end, we got nothing for players like Ware when he left. And now we have a lot of holes to fill AND we don't have Ware.

In short, I am trying to learn from our mistakes of keeping stud players around when we know full well we can't compete because of a lack of depth when we could have moved them when their value was at their highest and aquire multiple picks in which we should draft talented players, you know, NOT INJURED OFTEN, and build an actual team, not a few studs surrounded by multiple duds.

Again, just my opinion.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't lie. I am itching for a win. As down as I feel about this team right now Romo and Dez are so impressive that their is this spark of hope. Unrealistic and unexpected. But I don't know if I would sacrifice the short term for the long term.

Talking as a fan right now. I am hungry for a win.
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Rtnldave


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I won't lie. I am itching for a win. As down as I feel about this team right now Romo and Dez are so impressive that their is this spark of hope. Unrealistic and unexpected. But I don't know if I would sacrifice the short term for the long term.

Talking as a fan right now. I am hungry for a win.


And see, that's just it Tex, there are a lot of people on this site hungry for a win. And they will hang onto 1 or 2 players that will get us that "win."

Me, I'm hungry for a title. Enough of this BS, I want to see a resurgence like we had in the 90's! I was a young man of about 22 when that all began to unfold. The NYG and Redskins (yes, I used the dreaded term) had already won 2 SB each in the past 6 years at that time and the Iggles, well, they were what the Iggles always were and are today, close but no cigar.

It was an amazing time to be a Cowboys fan. And what I am beginning to recognize now, to a degree, is the pitful this team is heading for if they do not do something about it.

Just look at what losing Ware and Hatcher has done to this defense already, and the season hasn't even started yet! Alright, Lee aside, but we should have learned our lesson with him a year ago with his fragility (is that even a word?)

What do you think our offense is going to look like in 2 years when Romo and Witten are not here or not producing? Same as our defense now. By that time it will be too late to begin drafting for the future rebuild. Our O line will be thriving then. And we will not have a multitude of picks to work with.

No, I see a solid foundation up front backed by a bunch of aging players who could never seem to find that "it" factor that gets them the win when it matters most.

In my opinion, don't waste the O line talent that this team has worked hard to aquire. Roll the dice and go for broke. As it is now, we are just about broke anyway.

Don't take a risk, can't make a gain. I would have thought a business tycoon like JJ would understand that by now.
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TheStarStillShines


Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You play this season trying to win, but the team shouldn't mortgage the long-term for the short-term. If there is no improvement or the team goes south, then "blow it up" in the off-season. By blowing it up, I mean completely reshuffle the coaching staff and deal or release some of the veterans, including Romo, Witten, etc. Collect draft picks and young players and hire a head coach from the college ranks.

As Dave mentioned, the cannot be shortsighted in its approach. There are too many holes on this team that one player won't change the team's fortunes around. This team is several players away from being a contender.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how releasing vets like Witten and Romo help in either the short or long term given that they are still playing at a high level.
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I don't see how releasing vets like Witten and Romo help in either the short or long term given that they are still playing at a high level.


Cap space. It also gives young players much-needed playing time. In addition, it's about starting a new era with a new core.

At some point, both players will experience a sharp decline. Don't hold on to them when that decline happens, but instead move on and start anew. Don't fall into the mistake the team did back in the late '90s. And with this team no where near contention for a couple of years, what's the point of holding on to them? Give them the opportunity to win a title with a team closer to contention than the Boys.

Honestly, TO, have you not learned anything from the Boys' experiences and how teams like Green Bay have been able to sustain success or even the Colts, who missed the post-season once but then immediately returned to playoff status?
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you arguing in the immediate or in the future? Right now both are playing at a high level - and for much of a 'cap hell' that we are in we constantly are able to sign and re-sign who we want.

If you want to trade assets to secure the future, that is one thing. But to give up on players who are still excelling and under contract I don't see the virtue in.

Both the Colts and the Packers had the heir waiting before they released their QB.
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Desperado82


Joined: 20 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Are you arguing in the immediate or in the future? Right now both are playing at a high level - and for much of a 'cap hell' that we are in we constantly are able to sign and re-sign who we want.

If you want to trade assets to secure the future, that is one thing. But to give up on players who are still excelling and under contract I don't see the virtue in.

Both the Colts and the Packers had the heir waiting before they released their QB.


Technically...the Colts didn't. They released Manning in March of 2011, one month before the draft.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Are you arguing in the immediate or in the future? Right now both are playing at a high level - and for much of a 'cap hell' that we are in we constantly are able to sign and re-sign who we want.

If you want to trade assets to secure the future, that is one thing. But to give up on players who are still excelling and under contract I don't see the virtue in.

Both the Colts and the Packers had the heir waiting before they released their QB.


Technically...the Colts didn't. They released Manning in March of 2011, one month before the draft.


Point. They still knew they would draft Luck (or the QB of their choosing). We have...Weeden.
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Are you arguing in the immediate or in the future? Right now both are playing at a high level - and for much of a 'cap hell' that we are in we constantly are able to sign and re-sign who we want.

If you want to trade assets to secure the future, that is one thing. But to give up on players who are still excelling and under contract I don't see the virtue in.

Both the Colts and the Packers had the heir waiting before they released their QB.


Technically...the Colts didn't. They released Manning in March of 2011, one month before the draft.


Point. They still knew they would draft Luck (or the QB of their choosing). We have...Weeden.


True...just saying Laughing
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TheStarStillShines


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Are you arguing in the immediate or in the future? Right now both are playing at a high level - and for much of a 'cap hell' that we are in we constantly are able to sign and re-sign who we want.

If you want to trade assets to secure the future, that is one thing. But to give up on players who are still excelling and under contract I don't see the virtue in.

Both the Colts and the Packers had the heir waiting before they released their QB.


Technically...the Colts didn't. They released Manning in March of 2011, one month before the draft.


Point. They still knew they would draft Luck (or the QB of their choosing). We have...Weeden.


And that's what I'm saying. Just try to follow along. As I said, if the team shows no improvement or regresses, they should deal Romo and Witten while they still have some value (assuming any team would be interested in a 35-year old QB and a 33-year old TE (ages are for 2015). The team at that point will have seen enough to make big changes, or should be anyway.

Play out this year and see what happens. But if the team sucks, commence the rebuild. Don't hold on to ageing players for that last run.
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheStarStillShines wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Are you arguing in the immediate or in the future? Right now both are playing at a high level - and for much of a 'cap hell' that we are in we constantly are able to sign and re-sign who we want.

If you want to trade assets to secure the future, that is one thing. But to give up on players who are still excelling and under contract I don't see the virtue in.

Both the Colts and the Packers had the heir waiting before they released their QB.


Technically...the Colts didn't. They released Manning in March of 2011, one month before the draft.


Point. They still knew they would draft Luck (or the QB of their choosing). We have...Weeden.


And that's what I'm saying. Just try to follow along. As I said, if the team shows no improvement or regresses, they should deal Romo and Witten while they still have some value (assuming any team would be interested in a 35-year old QB and a 33-year old TE (ages are for 2015). The team at that point will have seen enough to make big changes, or should be anyway.

Play out this year and see what happens. But if the team sucks, commence the rebuild. Don't hold on to ageing players for that last run.


Problem is, nobody is taking Romo, his contract, age/injuries. Dallas cuts him they eat somewhere in the neighborhood of $40m. That has no chance of happening. And, if it did, they have no FA money to spend. Romo needs to be left out of the equation.
Witten is a little more doable, but at 33 it won't be an easy task. Money wise it work better though. Saves $3m next season and $6m after that, but the $5.2m hit in dead money (next year) could be tough to work around.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Are you arguing in the immediate or in the future? Right now both are playing at a high level - and for much of a 'cap hell' that we are in we constantly are able to sign and re-sign who we want.

If you want to trade assets to secure the future, that is one thing. But to give up on players who are still excelling and under contract I don't see the virtue in.

Both the Colts and the Packers had the heir waiting before they released their QB.


It's still very apparent that you have no clue when it comes to how the horrible cap management has hamstrung this team for several years now. All of the cap manipulation and borrowing from the future could do no better than maintain the status quo. There was absolutely no progression. This year odds are pretty good we will see regression (unless the offense can average about 30 PPG).
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Justin Hoover82


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The major problem our team has is Romo. No not because Romo is bad, in fact I think Romo is still really good. The problem is his giant contract eats up so much cap space we will not be able to afford to build up the other side of the ball. The offense as of right now is good enough to win a superbowl but the defense is most likely the worst in the NFL and will take at least 2 yrs to get respectable. With our track record of mid-late draft picks busting I don't have much hope for the future. I expect maybe 6 or 7 wins this season if the offense can have multiple 40+ pt games but we shall see.
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