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Cowboys DE Demarcus Lawrence breaks foot!
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Northland


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superfluous wrote:
Northland wrote:
We can agree to disagree on the philosophy of trading up for the player you covet vs. holding onto to your draft picks. But can we agree on the following: When you trade up and sacrifice draft choices to do so, the player you trade up for had better be a solid choice?

Off the top of my head in recent years we have traded up for Anthony Spencer, Mike Jenkins, Sean Lee, Morris Claiborne, Demarcus Lawrence, and we gave away picks for Roy Williams. Would anyone like a "do over" or is anyone bold enough to defend these moves?

We could have held onto our picks and there is no guarantee that we would've been successful wth them. The draft is a gamble. We could've crapped the bed with the picks we held onto. But we know our results from trading up. We have one all world WR in Bryant. The rest are players released, often injured, or who have yet to reach potential. That does not justify trading up.


Anthony Spencer is good, Sean Lee is great, Claiborne is too early to tell, Lawrence is way too early to tell, and Roy wasn't a trade up. Mike Jenkins was so so.


Spencer has been one of the most frustrating players in recent memories. I believe he is referred to by many as Almost Anthony. Lee cannot stay on the field. Jenkins should have been a cornerstone of the club. Williams was not a trade up, but we still sacrificed premium picks to get him. Claiborne has been a big disappointment. When you have a player ranked as your top defender in the draft he beter produce. Agreed on Lawrence it's too early to tell. But the question remains. Has trading up proved to be positive for the Cowboys? I say that it hasn't. Hindsight is always 20/20 and I'm not saying I told you so. I'm trying to measure or quantify the results of these moves. But regarding the Claiborne trade, I believe Jerry said had we stayed put we would have taken Brockers and Wagner. They would look pretty good in a Cowboys uniform to me right now.
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PincheJimmy


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I love Strum. And I don't discount what he advocates. And he even acknowledges that all teams DO move up to get players they covet.

But if the choice before us is on the one hand a premier player we really want or a handful of role players/special teamers - I know where I stand. I don't need history to repeat itself, I learned my lesson.



Yes! I'll sacrifice a pick to get a premier player. It seems like most would be happier with 2 avg players over 1 good one . The broken foot sucks but he will be back mid season and hopefully play well
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Rtnldave


Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:
Superfluous wrote:
Northland wrote:
We can agree to disagree on the philosophy of trading up for the player you covet vs. holding onto to your draft picks. But can we agree on the following: When you trade up and sacrifice draft choices to do so, the player you trade up for had better be a solid choice?

Off the top of my head in recent years we have traded up for Anthony Spencer, Mike Jenkins, Sean Lee, Morris Claiborne, Demarcus Lawrence, and we gave away picks for Roy Williams. Would anyone like a "do over" or is anyone bold enough to defend these moves?

We could have held onto our picks and there is no guarantee that we would've been successful wth them. The draft is a gamble. We could've crapped the bed with the picks we held onto. But we know our results from trading up. We have one all world WR in Bryant. The rest are players released, often injured, or who have yet to reach potential. That does not justify trading up.


Anthony Spencer is good, Sean Lee is great, Claiborne is too early to tell, Lawrence is way too early to tell, and Roy wasn't a trade up. Mike Jenkins was so so.


Spencer has been one of the most frustrating players in recent memories. I believe he is referred to by many as Almost Anthony. Lee cannot stay on the field. Jenkins should have been a cornerstone of the club. Williams was not a trade up, but we still sacrificed premium picks to get him. Claiborne has been a big disappointment. When you have a player ranked as your top defender in the draft he beter produce. Agreed on Lawrence it's too early to tell. But the question remains. Has trading up proved to be positive for the Cowboys? I say that it hasn't. Hindsight is always 20/20 and I'm not saying I told you so. I'm trying to measure or quantify the results of these moves. But regarding the Claiborne trade, I believe Jerry said had we stayed put we would have taken Brockers and Wagner. They would look pretty good in a Cowboys uniform to me right now.



How does three consecutive 8-8 seasons sound for quantifying these moves?

If you really think about it, one of the big reasons this team wiffs in week 17 (Always in a do or die situation) is because of multiple injuries to our premier players and no depth behind them. THAT is what holding on to those 2nd and 3rd round picks could have provided. Some real depth with, what I like to call, Blue Collar players. Guys who show up each week, play hard, play smart, know their jobs well, and can step in and play as a team rather than rely on a superstar.

Superstars are great. But when superstars get injured and the drop off in talent from them to the next guy up is as bad as it is, or has been with this team, all you are left with is a bunch of late 6th and 7th rounders. And more often than not, its not enough to get the job done.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:
We can agree to disagree on the philosophy of trading up for the player you covet vs. holding onto to your draft picks. But can we agree on the following: When you trade up and sacrifice draft choices to do so, the player you trade up for had better be a solid choice?

Off the top of my head in recent years we have traded up for Anthony Spencer, Mike Jenkins, Sean Lee, Morris Claiborne, Demarcus Lawrence, and we gave away picks for Roy Williams. Would anyone like a "do over" or is anyone bold enough to defend these moves?

We could have held onto our picks and there is no guarantee that we would've been successful wth them. The draft is a gamble. We could've crapped the bed with the picks we held onto. But we know our results from trading up. We have one all world WR in Bryant. The rest are players released, often injured, or who have yet to reach potential. That does not justify trading up.


If we are going to go back in history, can we actually secure a trade up for Alex Mack?

I don't know about you - but I would have gladly sacrificed that WHOLE draft for that one player.

But this just goes to show that no strategy is perfect. Any articulating any other view is either ignorant or intentionally misleading others.

Spencer I liked and was worthy of the pick. Jenkins was not. Lee has been. Mo is in a prove it year and it is a little premature to judge Law.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Northland wrote:
We can agree to disagree on the philosophy of trading up for the player you covet vs. holding onto to your draft picks. But can we agree on the following: When you trade up and sacrifice draft choices to do so, the player you trade up for had better be a solid choice?

Off the top of my head in recent years we have traded up for Anthony Spencer, Mike Jenkins, Sean Lee, Morris Claiborne, Demarcus Lawrence, and we gave away picks for Roy Williams. Would anyone like a "do over" or is anyone bold enough to defend these moves?

We could have held onto our picks and there is no guarantee that we would've been successful wth them. The draft is a gamble. We could've crapped the bed with the picks we held onto. But we know our results from trading up. We have one all world WR in Bryant. The rest are players released, often injured, or who have yet to reach potential. That does not justify trading up.


If we are going to go back in history, can we actually secure a trade up for Alex Mack?

I don't know about you - but I would have gladly sacrificed that WHOLE draft for that one player.

But this just goes to show that no strategy is perfect. Any articulating any other view is either ignorant or intentionally misleading others.

Spencer I liked and was worthy of the pick. Jenkins was not. Lee has been. Mo is in a prove it year and it is a little premature to judge Law.


Great point on Mack. Like you say no strategy is perfect. But when you go the trade draft picks route, the player picked better pay off. So far only Bryant has paid off. Maybe i'm being harsh on Lee but he just can't stay healthy. And if a guy is not on the field he is not contributing.

I'm not directing this at you TO, but I don't see the correlation between if we hadn't traded up we would end up with special teamers or role players, like it was an all or nothing scenario. Premium player or mediocrity, so pull the trigger. When we look at the Cowboys roster we see a top heavy roster of stars, or quality players, and then the quality just plummets. I just think you need picks to build your roster and have some depth for the war of attrition that football is.

Nice to have a football discussion in the off season!
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No salt here brother. I am just glad to have a discussion here again.

This draft success hinges on Law. He got injured. It happens. But the regular season hasn't even started. If he goes on to have a career like Ware this frustration will be all for not. If he goes on to be a two year-then retire player then it will be a mistake.

All I know is that if I was in-charge - and my future depends on the success of these players, I would go up and get the ones I want rather than let the chips fall where they may.
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
All I know is that if I was in-charge - and my future depends on the success of these players, I would go up and get the ones I want rather than let the chips fall where they may.


Which is fine in moderation. You go crazy with that philosophy like Dallas has and you're begging to be jobless. Simply cannot sacrifice all that depth for a handful of players. What was it that Sturm said...something along the lines of 17 players Dallas has given up for a total of 6? That's is killer and I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.
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Northland


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: Ajax, Ontario
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WizardHawk wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
All I know is that if I was in-charge - and my future depends on the success of these players, I would go up and get the ones I want rather than let the chips fall where they may.


Which is fine in moderation. You go crazy with that philosophy like Dallas has and you're begging to be jobless. Simply cannot sacrifice all that depth for a handful of players. What was it that Sturm said...something along the lines of 17 players Dallas has given up for a total of 6? That's is killer and I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.


Nice point WH. When you adopt a go big or go home approach to the draft those players you sacrifice picks for had better become long term foundations of the club. Can't say that has happened with the Cowboys.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
No salt here brother. I am just glad to have a discussion here again.

This draft success hinges on Law. He got injured. It happens. But the regular season hasn't even started. If he goes on to have a career like Ware this frustration will be all for not. If he goes on to be a two year-then retire player then it will be a mistake.

All I know is that if I was in-charge - and my future depends on the success of these players, I would go up and get the ones I want rather than let the chips fall where they may.


I think Lawrence will be a player. I'm just frustrated that he is going to miss the reps that he really needs.
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cowboyfanin2890


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
I love Strum. And I don't discount what he advocates. And he even acknowledges that all teams DO move up to get players they covet.

But if the choice before us is on the one hand a premier player we really want or a handful of role players/special teamers - I know where I stand. I don't need history to repeat itself, I learned my lesson.


I don't think that we would have been drafting special teams and/or role players if we had stayed were we was at because our D is a special kind of bad. I know we want and need a pass rusher and he was the best remaining but we had other needs and players still setting there. Are we going to always hit on these picks, no but it would be nice to fill multiple needs instead of waiting til its sieve.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may actually be good for his career.

While the physical reps in practice are gone, no one ever doubted his physical abilities. It is the mental part of his game and the intuition and instincts which seemed to lack in college. He often struggled to read wide angle runs or recognize obvious snap counts, and never displayed much know-how when attacking certain blocking schemes.

This time off the field gives him time to study these mental aspects and observe them first hand with a professional staff drilling it into his head. While it sucks for our immediate impact defensively, it may make him a better player over the long term.
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PincheJimmy


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas94Ware wrote:
This may actually be good for his career.

While the physical reps in practice are gone, no one ever doubted his physical abilities. It is the mental part of his game and the intuition and instincts which seemed to lack in college. He often struggled to read wide angle runs or recognize obvious snap counts, and never displayed much know-how when attacking certain blocking schemes.

This time off the field gives him time to study these mental aspects and observe them first hand with a professional staff drilling it into his head. While it sucks for our immediate impact defensively, it may make him a better player over the long term.


I agree, its just like when you draft a talented QB and you let them sit and learn as oppoes to being thrown in the fire. If there is anything positive to come out of that broken foot, it could be that, we shall see Smile
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