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Potential all time great draft?
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Grasspike


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

davdukes4 wrote:
Grasspike wrote:


Absolutely. I'll eat every sports page to ever feature Pancakes McClain if Teddy doesn't turn out to be an above-average NFL QB, maybe even an elite one.


I am a complete novice when it comes to watching tape. I feel like I am going to learn alot with this draft class.

There is Teddy, who all the hardcore draft guys love and wanted in the top 5. I saw him as the definition of a mediocre nfl qb. I feel like he is almost guaranteed to be a middle of the pack qb (15-20). Early 2nd value.

Bortles, who gets mixed reactions ranging from a top 3 pick to an early 2nd round 'project' qb. Perfect 1 year development qb. Early 2nd value.

Manziel, the complete boom or bust guy that the Teddy guys seem to have a good amount of distaste for. If he weren't Johnny Football my needle would be swaying towards risk. But a guy with a lot of pro's to his game and will fill the seats, I think he is absolutely worth the risk. Especially for a franchise that borders on boring. Late 1st - early 2nd value.

Carr, I think I have the same general thoughts on him as most. Big arm, under rated athletic ability. Excellent project qb. Early 2nd value.

Savage, most hardcore draft guys around here seem to hate him. I see a lot of people saying they wouldn't 'waste' a pick on him on day 3. This is my anti-Teddy pick. I think Teddy is a pretty sure thing to be an average qb, but I don't see him ever becoming a top ten qb. He is the kind of qb that will keep you in draft limbo for 10 years (7-9 to 10-6 with early play-off exits). Imo, only top 5-10 qbs make the difference. Anything outside of the top 10 rely on a great team and staff to make a run at a championship. I see Savage as a guy who never developed in college. He was a 19 year old stud who butted heads with an ego maniac coach and decided to transfer. He caught some very bad luck after the original bad decision. Then he ends up on a mediocre team in Pitt. They didn't block well and I didn't see the receivers get much separation. He was relying solely on his NFL caliber arm. He has a lot of work to do, but I believe he has much more room for development because of his college experience (or lack there of). He was the only prospect that made me sit up in my seat when I was watching tape. I almost passed over him (he was the 13th qb I had watched). After two throws I was like who is this guy??? He has a powerful arm and throws tight, beautiful strikes. He made some questionable throws, but I felt it was because he was 'pocket passer' who rarely had a pocket to pass from. If he can be treated as the heir to the throne and handled correctly, I think he can be a top ten (or better) qb.
Teddy floor: top 25 qb, Teddy ceiling 12-15.
Savage floor: back up (and if he doesn't have passion for the game he will be out of the league) Savage ceiling top 5.

If Teddy becomes a top 15 qb and Savage is a washout it will be a valuable lesson learned. This whole process is fun to me. I love learning and will be glad to admit I was completely wrong when it comes true.


It's not about watching tape. With all due respect, I don't trust anyone on this forum to watch tape and be able to meaningfully distinguish between similar players. It's about what it takes to be a great QB in the NFL. The difference between good and great QB's is mental. Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Peyton Manning all have average arms (maybe even below-average, in Manning's case), but they make tremendous decisions confidently. Jay Cutler and Joe Flacco have howitzers attached to their torsos, but they're still average quarterbacks. Kyle Boller and JaMarcus Russell had even better arms, and they washed out in no time. But the guys that become elite QB's make quick decisions, good decisions, and handle adversity with grace, and by absolutely all accounts, Teddy does all of those things.

The thing that kills me is that Teddy came into the year as the clear #1 QB, improved significantly, and still got crushed because the media machine needed something to write and talk about. If I were Marcus Mariota right now, I would be downplaying myself every chance I got and asking Helfrich to do the same.
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davdukes4


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grasspike wrote:


The thing that kills me is that Teddy came into the year as the clear #1 QB, improved significantly, and still got crushed because the media machine needed something to write and talk about.


Do you think the media machine affects pro scouts ratings? I know it greatly affects 'analysts' and pro mock drafters. It's almost silly with all those guys...But I really hope top scouts thoughts aren't changed by the media like that. Maybe Manziel can move a few spots up a board, but he is the exception, not the rule. If pro scouts legitimately thought he was the #1 qb/potential #1 overall pick like the mock drafters were touting him as early on...I really hope he didn't fall to a trade back #32 overall pick. Because some guys like Mayock and Kiper had Teddy falling to the 2nd round.
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shep0507


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buckwild wrote:
shep0507 wrote:
davdukes4 wrote:
Grasspike wrote:
We blew the opportunity to draft a franchise QB in the first, made three great picks, then seem intent on throwing the rest of them away. I wouldn't call it an all-time great draft.


None of those quarterbacks are worth a #1 overall pick. The Texans D-line is looking out of this world. It makes me think of the two recent giant superbowls. Their defensive line made that team and won those games. They had an average passing attack and a decent run game. Brandon Jacobs =/= Arian Foster. If Savage pans out with that cannon of an arm this is a team to beat. If not you will have a complete team heading into the draft next year. Get your QB and be a dynasty. I'm surprised fans can land Clowney, Su'a-filo and Nix and not be happy. I'm not certain about the last couple picks...but I wouldn't worry too much about 200+.

Did you guys really want Teddy Bridgewater at #1 overall?


The part of "blowing it" by not getting Bridgewater isn't about the #1 overall, it's about the failure to trade up a couple of spots to go get him. The Vikes gave a 2nd and 4th to move up 8 spots, it likely would have cost the 2nd and no more than a 5th, but probably 6th to move up one spot. That means that they would have not picked Pagan or Blue with a 6th, not picked Su'a-Filo with #33, but would have gained Bridgewater and probably not picked Savage in the 4th. To me, and a bunch of other people, that's a big deal.

Without looking, I bet there's a bunch of good OG's (not as good, but good) around that 135 pick or maybe a CB or ILB that could have been picked there if Bridgewater was on board and they didn't go Savage. So you give up Su'a-Filo, Savage and Pagan/Blue and gain Bridgewater/other player in 4th. That's a done deal if it's offered in players only.

I'm starting to come around to thinking that they really preferred Savage to Bridgewater, and that blows my mind.


Wow, Still crying about Teddy! Isn't your self imposed 24 hour rule expired yet. Yes, BOB might have thought Savage was a better value than Teddy was when he was picked. He is entitled to his opinion just like you and me. If we trade for Teddy we don't have 5th to trade for Nix


Seriously? What's your deal? Are you still trying to dictate to people what they can and can't discuss on an internet board? I explained to you already about being antagonistic, and either you don't understand the concept, or you're just being a immature troll.

Quote:
Wow, Still crying about Teddy! Isn't your self imposed 24 hour rule expired yet.


Way to start out a reply. For your information, I'm not "crying" about Bridgewater, I was replying to someone else's post that brought it up.

Quote:
He is entitled to his opinion just like you and me.


Exactly, so why do you insist on trying to dismiss, demean and stifle mine?

I'm pretty sure you don't understand the process at this point, so I'll explain this to you. Day 1: From the start of Round 1, to the start of Round 2. Watch the picks, discuss what happens, especially big events that affect your team. Day 2: From the start of round 2, to the start of round 4. Watch picks, discuss what happens and anything important from day 1 that affects day 2. Day 3: I think you see where this is going by now. Day 4: discuss the entire draft in it's completion, including UDFA and how it helps/hurts your team.

You obviously don't like Bridgewater, that's fine. I obviously do. Regardless of what you think, that's also fine. People obviously want to talk about that pick because other people are bringing it up. People all over this board are capable of having differing opinions and can discuss it without being DB's about it, yet I can't express my opinion without you "putting me in my place". Well excuse me for having my opinion and coming to a discussion board to discuss that opinion. If it's ok with you, highness, can I continue to post on your board?

Quote:
So you would rather have Teddy, cyril Richardson, and Justin Ellis then Savage, Sua-filo and Nix?


In my post, I clearly stated that I think Seattle would have taken a 6th, so it wouldn't have affected the trade up for Nix. For the sake of argument, let's assume it took the 5th round pick to move up. Nix was falling like a rock. Eventually, someone was going to take a risk on him, but he may have fallen to the next pick and there was no need to trade up for him. Regardless, I would absolutely rather have the three you named, or Daniel McCullers and Richardson, or for that matter DeAndre Coleman, who projects as a 3-4 DE but can play NT in a pinch than Savage, Su'a-Filo and Nix. Sorry, in Savage, I see a guy that has the potential, but I'm not sure he'll ever get there. Why do you think Nix, a clear 1-2 round talent was dropping that far? It wasn't because they didn't like how he ties his shoes. There's something there, and the rumor going around is his knees are a question, which is a huge red flag on a guy that big.

Now, if I can continue to voice my opinion without you following me around dictating to me what I can and can't have an opinion on, that would be great. Thanks.
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said that it was a mute point after the 2nd round started. Not stifling you opinion, but what good does it to beat a dead horse. It is happened nothing can change it. Just understand why people continue to dwell on it. Don't understand the rationale behind it
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Grasspike


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

davdukes4 wrote:
Grasspike wrote:


The thing that kills me is that Teddy came into the year as the clear #1 QB, improved significantly, and still got crushed because the media machine needed something to write and talk about.


Do you think the media machine affects pro scouts ratings? I know it greatly affects 'analysts' and pro mock drafters. It's almost silly with all those guys...But I really hope top scouts thoughts aren't changed by the media like that. Maybe Manziel can move a few spots up a board, but he is the exception, not the rule. If pro scouts legitimately thought he was the #1 qb/potential #1 overall pick like the mock drafters were touting him as early on...I really hope he didn't fall to a trade back #32 overall pick. Because some guys like Mayock and Kiper had Teddy falling to the 2nd round.


It absolutely affects where they are drafted. Maybe not scout ratings, but you don't think GMs factor in fan opinion when they draft guys? You don't think Jerry Jones passed on Johnny Manziel because of the absolutely ridiculous media attention that would have brought? That the media would have built their narrative on the classic Jerry Jones meddling story line and absolutely crushed him? Or that in the event of failure, do you think there was any chance drafting Teddy Bridgewater at #1 (regardless of the success of other QB's) would have not costs Rick Smith his job? Let's be frank here: GMs don't make decisions to build the best football team possible--they make decisions to not get fired. And the safe route of not causing undue media attention, even when its the wrong decision, keeps them from getting fired more often than not.
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shep0507


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buckwild wrote:
You said that it was a mute point after the 2nd round started. Not stifling you opinion, but what good does it to beat a dead horse. It is happened nothing can change it. Just understand why people continue to dwell on it. Don't understand the rationale behind it


I don't understand why you continue to harp on it. It's called a discussion. When you discuss a draft, the discussion extends to moves made and not. If you don't get it, you won't, but you need to get over it. No one is "dwelling on it", though my question is why you feel the need to troll me, when I'm far from the only one discussing it. I don't see you replying to the other comments, just mine. If you don't care to discuss it, you can feel free to move along and ignore every conversation about it. It's pretty simple. There's no flipping need for you to even respond to posts about it, but you feel the need to, yet, it's only mine. Go AWAY.

At this point, I'm over your little game, and I refuse to give you the reaction you so desperately crave of getting a response. Respond to my posts...don't, I don't care. Either you're actually clueless as to why people continue to talk about it, or you're being a troll. Either way, attempting to have an actual discussion with you is pointless.
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe Rick picked the guy that BOB wanted since he likes bigger QB's in the mold of Brady. I think they wanted Jimmy G at the top of the third, and after Patriots picked him went to plan B. So just because many people don't agree with it doesn't mean it is wrong, and giving up picks for a guy that isn't a system fit is stupid. This team isn't 1 player away from being contenders so why not follow the Seahawks model to have strong defense andrunning game with a QB that is accurate and doesn't make mistakes.

Or you could follow the Cowboys model to trade picks to fill one hole while ignoring the other glaring needs on the team. All that gets you is mediocrity, and are we forgetting the QB class next year is going to be head and shoulders above the this year's class. It's called having vision for the future rather than having tunnel vision just focusing on the present. Having tunnel vision is what will get a GM fired faster than anything. Did you want them to take Bortles would you be happier if they would have done that instead? Teddy wasnt even a consideration for BOB as he is not the type of QB wants in his offense.

Shep , that's why I am sick of this argument because it was never going to happen even if he was there at the top of the 2nd. Back to my analogy of beating a dead horse. Just because a mock draft says it would happen doesn't make it so. Can't we just be happy with the players we selected, and see how they develop.
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe Rick picked the guy that BOB wanted since he likes bigger QB's in the mold of Brady. I think they wanted Jimmy G at the top of the third, and after Patriots picked him went to plan B. So just because many people don't agree with it doesn't mean it is wrong, and giving up picks for a guy that isn't a system fit is stupid. This team isn't 1 player away from being contenders so why not follow the Seahawks model to have strong defense andrunning game with a QB that is accurate and doesn't make mistakes.

Or you could follow the Cowboys model to trade picks to fill one hole while ignoring the other glaring needs on the team. All that gets you is mediocrity, and are we forgetting the QB class next year is going to be head and shoulders above the this year's class. It's called having vision for the future rather than having tunnel vision just focusing on the present. Having tunnel vision is what will get a GM fired faster than anything. Did you want them to take Bortles would you be happier if they would have done that instead? Teddy wasnt even a consideration for BOB as he is not the type of QB wants in his offense.

Shep , that's why I am sick of this argument because it was never going to happen even if he was there at the top of the 2nd. Back to my analogy of beating a dead horse. Just because a mock draft says it would happen doesn't make it so. Can't we just be happy with the players we selected, and see how they develop.
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Cole416


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah and out of the top 4 QBs next year only 2 would be "BOB molds"

And you will need a top 5 pick, which i doubt we will get (7-9) which makes getting a QB next year even trickier... unless you want to explain.
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cole416 wrote:
Yeah and out of the top 4 QBs next year only 2 would be "BOB molds"

And you will need a top 5 pick, which i doubt we will get (7-9) which makes getting a QB next year even trickier... unless you want to explain.


Ok, who on the forum thought that Teddy would be available at #32 this time last year?

Just because you say they will go 7-9 doesn't mean its going to happen that way.

Let's see how Savage progresses. Like I said BOB wants to pattern the Texans after the Seahawks who won a SB with a 3rd Rd Qb. Tough, strong D with a stout running game, and situational passing game. It may not be sexy, but who cares if it gets us where we want to go. I would rather pattern a team after Pats/Seahawks than Denver who relies on franchise QB to get you anywhere. BOB is a Qb guru so let him work his magic and see what develops rather than being so pessimistic about this team.
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davdukes4


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grasspike wrote:


It absolutely affects where they are drafted. Maybe not scout ratings, but you don't think GMs factor in fan opinion when they draft guys? You don't think Jerry Jones passed on Johnny Manziel because of the absolutely ridiculous media attention that would have brought? That the media would have built their narrative on the classic Jerry Jones meddling story line and absolutely crushed him? Or that in the event of failure, do you think there was any chance drafting Teddy Bridgewater at #1 (regardless of the success of other QB's) would have not costs Rick Smith his job? Let's be frank here: GMs don't make decisions to build the best football team possible--they make decisions to not get fired. And the safe route of not causing undue media attention, even when its the wrong decision, keeps them from getting fired more often than not.


It could absolutely move a guy like Johnny football up a board a few spots....But you're trying to tell me 32 GMs passed on the #1 qb in the draft because of the media and 'professional' mockdraft/analysts? Not buying it.

I don't believe Jerry Jones passed on Manziel because of the ensuing circus. I think he passed on Manziel because he just invested $108 mil in Romo. If you put that kind of money into a player you believe he is the answer...So why would he go and select another qb with the 16th pick?

And the best way not to get fired is to win...and the best way to do that is to have a #1 quarterback, not Ryan Fitzpatrick or Case Keenum leading your passing attack.

The Texans have a very good team. They caught bad breaks. They had their All-Pro back go down for the season. Their qb was amazingly, throwing int tds in what seemed like every game. If Teddy is anywhere near as good as people make him sound around here, there is little chance the texans would fall flat on their faces next year. Teddy isn't the kind of prospect that projects to blow up in their faces.

In reality I think the opposite of what you are saying is true. It was in fact the media, draft guru, and 'pro' analysts who over-rated Teddy early on. They were lost in Teddy's quality tape and stat line while refusing to look at all of his negatives. People who like Teddy brush it all under the rug with one big push of the broom and say none of that matters....and they wouldn't matter, but there are just too many of them to ignore imo (and apparently the NFLs opinion).
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buckwild


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teams picking early have an advantage, but Houston was able to come away with a draft class that is going to pay off immediately and should vault the franchise to new heights in years to come. The Texans did the smart thing and took the draft's best player in Jadeveon Clowney. He could end up being an NFL legend.

In the second round, Houston landed the best guard in the 2014 NFL Draft, Xavier Su'a-Filo. He should make an immediate impact in reestablishing the Texans' ground game. Along the same lines, Houston landed the best Y tight end in the 2014 NFL Draft in C.J. Fiedorowicz. He's best as a blocker, but has surprising quickness and athleticism. Fiedorowicz will play as a rookie as well.

Louis Nix, as documented above, was one of the best moves in the 2014 NFL Draft. He'll be the starting nose tackle and should really help keep blockers away from J.J. Watt, Jadeveon Clowney and Brian Cushing.

At the end of the fourth round, Houston was able to land the quarterback it were considering on Day 2, Tom Savage. The big-armed pocket-passer is a perfect developmental signal-caller for Bill O'Brien to work with. Savage has the skill set to be a starter in the NFL.

The Texans continued to add some contributors in the late rounds of the 2014 NFL Draft. Defensive end Jeoffrey Pagan will be in position to compete for playing time as a five-technique defensive end as a rookie. Later in the sixth round, Houston landed a starting fullback in Jay Prosch. The devastating blocker was huge for Auburn in 2013. Arian Foster will love having Prosch in front of him.

The Texans also landed a rotational back and special teams star in Alfred Blue. Seventh-round cornerback Andre Hal was a steal and could compete at nickel for Houston. Even Mr. Irrelevant, Memphis safety Lonnie Ballentine, could make the roster. He has a real combination of size and speed. Ballentine could have gone much earlier.

At the end of the day, Houston at least five starters. If Savage turns into a steal and Clowney becomes what he's capable of, this could be a draft class of the ages.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2014awards.php
Mod Edit: It's better to provide a link when able to than just cite.
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