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How many holes do we really have?
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BlackandBlue


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 2017
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockcity wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
Rockcity wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
RIP CITY wrote:
I've never heard anyone on this board say that the Lions should fire Mayhew. I definitely wouldn't call him one of the best but he's been pretty good overall.

We need to upgrade the secondary desperately in my opinion. CB/S are our two biggest needs IMO. #3 WR. I'd like to see us add another OLB and DE, we need to find a Center with the potential to take over soon. Kicker is a big hole. I'd definitely prefer an upgrade at TE but that ship has probably sailed, at this for this offseason. Backup QB. Depth at all LB positions, all our backup LB's are basically useless IMO. Really depth across the entire defense with the exception of CB, where we have depth but no sure fire starting caliber players.


Good list.

If the opportunity arises a LG or a LT moving Reiff to LG wouldn't hurt either.

The oline was O.K. Last year but some of that performance was as a result of Stafford getting rid of the ball quickly.

Fans seem to forget this is a team that missed the playoffs, AGAIN. There are a number of positions that have O.K. players but still need to be upgraded to make that next step.
I may be reading you wrong...but these ok players is exactly why some call for trades up. your against trading up and not ok with ok guys.. not sure what your expecting.you wanna keep our picks for depth that may become ok players..

I don't see how you can have great depth everywhere.even great teams lack in some areas

last yr wr was a hugh issue and mayhew got nothing done..that and coaching imo is why we missed the po.


Our QB is the reason we didn't make the playoffs.

The Ravens, Giants and and second Vikings games were all winnable with the offensive cast we had.
Iput that ravens game on the D myself and idt the viking game really mattered bc we had crap for recievers out there but if you wanna be that guy that blames everything on the qb more power to ya


The defense holds the Ravens to six field goals, including a 61 yarder at the end of the game, and you blame the D? OK, whatever you say.
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detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:

So Mark Sanchez was a better player last season than Russel Wilson?

Depends on what you are looking for. Breaking down defenses I would take Sanchez no doubt.
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25447
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:

Mayhew deserves an opportunity to finish what he started but I believe he's on a short leash. You can't have the benefit of high draft selections every year and continue to miss the playoffs.

But Mayhew has built a very talented team, lack of talent is not a significant reason why we missed the playoffs.

I don't understand this perspective... so if we had happened to make the playoffs last year, that would make our team more talented? Was our team in 2011 more talented than last years team because they made the playoffs that year?

I don't think so, there are so many factors that go into making the playoffs (such as poor coaching)


Don't confuse talent with accomplishment.

There's many talented people in the world that never accomplish what they're capable of.

I'm not going to go down the road of what if the Lions made the playoffs last year. In my view the FACT is they didn't. Coaching was certainly part of the problem but the issues facing the Lions encompass more than coaching.

You're also not acknowledging the fact the Lions don't exist in a vacuum. Other teams are also attempting, some succeeding at getting better.

The Lions have made the playoffs once in the past 14 years. Its hard for me to believe, given the regression following the ONE playoff appearance they're a really talented team whose only problem was coaching.

So, until such time as they demonstrate their collective ability, on the field, resulting in sufficient wins to make the playoffs in more than an outlier fashion I'm extremely skeptical.
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duanegarrison09


Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 656
Location: Macomb County, Michigan
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed the discussion!

I would add that Mayhew has performed pretty well and I think is getting better each year. It will take me along time to forgive him for the 2011 draft though Nick Fairley, Titus Young, Mikel LeShoure, Douglas Houge, and Johnny Culbreath. I really wanted Robert Quinn and Mason Foster so until they retire.............. Laughing I like to call that draft the lazy crazy drug draft.

I blame the collapse of last year on coaching first and secondly on the offense. Stafford fell apart in the second half, wide receivers were brutal especially after CJ was injured. Runningbacks couldn't hold onto the ball....................what a mess! I would suggest that our defense played pretty well but tired out at the end of most games because Stafford and company couldn't stay on the field.

As far as moving up in the upcoming draft for Sammy Watkins, I'm against it and I don't think we'll do it. The entire success of our offense is predicated on Stafford's success and Watkins has nothing to do with that.

How can we improve Stafford's accuracy? In my opinion, he needs more time to set his feet. If we trade up, it should be for a left tackle. I would love to get Jake Mathews.
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amaru0


Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 2620
Location: Baltimore
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think playcalling was a big issue last year. Linehan needed to go, and I think having a new OC may be the biggest difference between this team and last years. Add some receivers that can catch the ball and Stafford will be fine.

This team has a ton of talent, but they just can't seem to put it together. To me, that says coaching. Obviously there are still some needs and depth to build, but this roster should be a consistent contender. That's why I'd be okay with a move up for Watkins, because we are in a spot that we can add an elite player at a need position and not feel like the rest of the team is falling apart around him.
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
Posts: 1058
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:

Mayhew deserves an opportunity to finish what he started but I believe he's on a short leash. You can't have the benefit of high draft selections every year and continue to miss the playoffs.

But Mayhew has built a very talented team, lack of talent is not a significant reason why we missed the playoffs.

I don't understand this perspective... so if we had happened to make the playoffs last year, that would make our team more talented? Was our team in 2011 more talented than last years team because they made the playoffs that year?

I don't think so, there are so many factors that go into making the playoffs (such as poor coaching)


Don't confuse talent with accomplishment.

There's many talented people in the world that never accomplish what they're capable of.

I'm not going to go down the road of what if the Lions made the playoffs last year. In my view the FACT is they didn't. Coaching was certainly part of the problem but the issues facing the Lions encompass more than coaching.

You're also not acknowledging the fact the Lions don't exist in a vacuum. Other teams are also attempting, some succeeding at getting better.

The Lions have made the playoffs once in the past 14 years. Its hard for me to believe, given the regression following the ONE playoff appearance they're a really talented team whose only problem was coaching.

So, until such time as they demonstrate their collective ability, on the field, resulting in sufficient wins to make the playoffs in more than an outlier fashion I'm extremely skeptical.

I'm not confusing talent with accomplishment, in fact I'd say that you are... just because we haven't accomplished anything doesn't mean we lack talent. If we don't lack talent, Mayhew shouldn't be on a short leash because he's doing his job.
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detfan782004 wrote:

Cruz is one of best WR in the game


detfan782004 wrote:

(Eli) Manning has a new look offense and he has looked really good in it.


wut
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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25447
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:

Mayhew deserves an opportunity to finish what he started but I believe he's on a short leash. You can't have the benefit of high draft selections every year and continue to miss the playoffs.

But Mayhew has built a very talented team, lack of talent is not a significant reason why we missed the playoffs.

I don't understand this perspective... so if we had happened to make the playoffs last year, that would make our team more talented? Was our team in 2011 more talented than last years team because they made the playoffs that year?

I don't think so, there are so many factors that go into making the playoffs (such as poor coaching)


Don't confuse talent with accomplishment.

There's many talented people in the world that never accomplish what they're capable of.

I'm not going to go down the road of what if the Lions made the playoffs last year. In my view the FACT is they didn't. Coaching was certainly part of the problem but the issues facing the Lions encompass more than coaching.

You're also not acknowledging the fact the Lions don't exist in a vacuum. Other teams are also attempting, some succeeding at getting better.

The Lions have made the playoffs once in the past 14 years. Its hard for me to believe, given the regression following the ONE playoff appearance they're a really talented team whose only problem was coaching.

So, until such time as they demonstrate their collective ability, on the field, resulting in sufficient wins to make the playoffs in more than an outlier fashion I'm extremely skeptical.

I'm not confusing talent with accomplishment, in fact I'd say that you are... just because we haven't accomplished anything doesn't mean we lack talent. If we don't lack talent, Mayhew shouldn't be on a short leash because he's doing his job.


I'm not the one claiming the Lions are top 10 in talent and possibly top 5.

I don't believe they're close to that talent level and I believe anyone making those claims is confused.

There's simply no possible way to justify claiming the Lions rank that highly based on talent.

I have no idea how you determine talent but there are numerous factors at play.
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
Posts: 1058
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:

Mayhew deserves an opportunity to finish what he started but I believe he's on a short leash. You can't have the benefit of high draft selections every year and continue to miss the playoffs.

But Mayhew has built a very talented team, lack of talent is not a significant reason why we missed the playoffs.

I don't understand this perspective... so if we had happened to make the playoffs last year, that would make our team more talented? Was our team in 2011 more talented than last years team because they made the playoffs that year?

I don't think so, there are so many factors that go into making the playoffs (such as poor coaching)


Don't confuse talent with accomplishment.

There's many talented people in the world that never accomplish what they're capable of.

I'm not going to go down the road of what if the Lions made the playoffs last year. In my view the FACT is they didn't. Coaching was certainly part of the problem but the issues facing the Lions encompass more than coaching.

You're also not acknowledging the fact the Lions don't exist in a vacuum. Other teams are also attempting, some succeeding at getting better.

The Lions have made the playoffs once in the past 14 years. Its hard for me to believe, given the regression following the ONE playoff appearance they're a really talented team whose only problem was coaching.

So, until such time as they demonstrate their collective ability, on the field, resulting in sufficient wins to make the playoffs in more than an outlier fashion I'm extremely skeptical.

I'm not confusing talent with accomplishment, in fact I'd say that you are... just because we haven't accomplished anything doesn't mean we lack talent. If we don't lack talent, Mayhew shouldn't be on a short leash because he's doing his job.


I'm not the one claiming the Lions are top 10 in talent and possibly top 5.

I don't believe they're close to that talent level and I believe anyone making those claims is confused.

There's simply no possible way to justify claiming the Lions rank that highly based on talent.

I have no idea how you determine talent but there are numerous factors at play.

I'm hard pressed to find 10 teams more talented than the Lions.

That's besides the point though, I was making the point that the Lions have a lot of good, young talent and Mayhew shouldn't be on the hot seat because he has been doing his job well from a player acquisition perspective.
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detfan782004 wrote:

Cruz is one of best WR in the game


detfan782004 wrote:

(Eli) Manning has a new look offense and he has looked really good in it.


wut
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nagahide13


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 11080
Location: Stumptown
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose it's really about what we each think constitutes a "hole". To me, it's not so much about being below average at the position... it's about whether that position is going to be a liability. You need to have personnel that can succeed and make positive contributions, and you need to have contingencies in place should any player fail to meet those expectations.

I see at least 3 distinct kinds of "hole". I'll try to define them and identify which positions apply;

1. Complete lack of a NFL caliber player. Obviously the worst case scenario. We don't have an NFL caliber player at;
- K. Not a big deal... unless we sign another failure and refuse to replace him.

2. Lack of confidence at the position. Positions that appear to be filled... but by players we feel shaky about or don't trust to find success. Maybe the starter is injury prone and we have no backup. Maybe the starter is unproven and we have no depth. Maybe we just flat out don't like the player. I don't trust our situations at;
- RT, OLB, S, CB, WR, DE. Especially WR, RT, S and DE.

3. Lack of a future starter. A position that will be a MAJOR need very soon, but is currently set... for at least 1 season. We currently have no future at;
- C, LG, possibly DT if Suh leaves.

So, while (at least in my mind) Reggie Bush was a liability in 2013, we don't have a hole at RB because he's more than capable of being a HUGE boon rather than the bane he was last year. Plus, Joique Bell is the man and magically became a player that basically did everything we signed Reggie Bush to do. Laughing

TE as well. I'm no fan of 'Grew, but he's good enough. Plus Fauria is intriguing even if he's a bit overhyped by some.

___________________________________________

TLDR version;

What are the holes we can't even call ourselves a proper NFL team until we address?

Kicker.

What areas might be cause for major concern this year?

OT, LB, CB, WR, DE, S

What areas are assuredly major causes for concern in the very near future, but are currently adequately filled?

G, C.
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d_stanton2lions


Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 2786
Location: Boulder, Colorado
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:

Mayhew deserves an opportunity to finish what he started but I believe he's on a short leash. You can't have the benefit of high draft selections every year and continue to miss the playoffs.

But Mayhew has built a very talented team, lack of talent is not a significant reason why we missed the playoffs.

I don't understand this perspective... so if we had happened to make the playoffs last year, that would make our team more talented? Was our team in 2011 more talented than last years team because they made the playoffs that year?

I don't think so, there are so many factors that go into making the playoffs (such as poor coaching)


He is ultimately responsible for poor coaching since they are his hires and it's his decision when to move on. He doesn't just pick talent and watch. He has to make trades (or entertain them), negotiate with free agents and give out contracts, he has to hire/fire coaches. He's not just fantasy drafting a team.

I don't think he should be on a short leash either really, We are so backwards as an organization, we really need someone to stick around for a decade. You don't win with a poor staff or front office, and you don't win by replacing them every few years either I find that to be more detrimental to a teams future than poor drafting.
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duanegarrison09


Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 656
Location: Macomb County, Michigan
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

d_stanton2lions wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:

Mayhew deserves an opportunity to finish what he started but I believe he's on a short leash. You can't have the benefit of high draft selections every year and continue to miss the playoffs.

But Mayhew has built a very talented team, lack of talent is not a significant reason why we missed the playoffs.

I don't understand this perspective... so if we had happened to make the playoffs last year, that would make our team more talented? Was our team in 2011 more talented than last years team because they made the playoffs that year?

I don't think so, there are so many factors that go into making the playoffs (such as poor coaching)


He is ultimately responsible for poor coaching since they are his hires and it's his decision when to move on. He doesn't just pick talent and watch. He has to make trades (or entertain them), negotiate with free agents and give out contracts, he has to hire/fire coaches. He's not just fantasy drafting a team.

I don't think he should be on a short leash either really, We are so backwards as an organization, we really need someone to stick around for a decade. You don't win with a poor staff or front office, and you don't win by replacing them every few years either I find that to be more detrimental to a teams future than poor drafting.


Mayhew wanted to replace Schwartz a year earlier but Mr. Ford didn't...........
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