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Is our Secondary REALLY that bad or ????
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
Detroit's secondary is bad.

Potential has nothing to do with current playing level and over the past number of seasons the level of play has been less than successful.


Yea it's hard to believe these guys still getting support. In three years people will still be like they have potential
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slay and Greenwood will be starting CBs by the end of the year. Houston and Mathis will make excellent mentors and depth guys. I look at the strides Slay made last year and now with a full offseason and an idea what to expect in the NFL, he should make a huge jump this year. Greenwood was essentially a rookie as well after all the time he missed with injuries, but he looked very good the last few games. Remember that Rod Woodson got smoked his rookie year. So did Peterson. That's the main reason I'm okay with our CBs, because they've all shown potential and with the average development we will have a solid group. I'm really not opposed to adding one either if the situation presents itself. At safety I'm good with Quin but we definitely need to find a complement to him. But not in the first; I would hate to draft a first round safety.
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Maverick12


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrRay11 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
Maverick12 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
It's horrid. Too many CB projects over last few years

Or, too many young players. It often takes time for players to develop at the position. We've got young upside, and that upside may prove to provide a solution in the future.


That's a really optimistic statement. Outside of Slay, I find little upside in our secondary.


Slay is only one with upside


So we ought to quit on Bentley, Greenwood, and Green? They have no upside?


Obviously shouldn't quit on them, and we all know corners take time to develop, but out of those 3, you have a concussion/injury prone Bentley, an extremely raw(more raw than Ansah coming in) prospect in Greenwood, and a 6th rounder who has shown he'll compete, but he's definitely not what you want out there starting. So out of those 3 guys, there's upside, but not much, and it's overly optimistic to think that they'll reach they're potential with what we've seen so far.

I will say this about Slay though, I'm very excited to see his progression in his second season. I think he has the tools to be a very solid starter for us.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
DrRay11 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
Maverick12 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
It's horrid. Too many CB projects over last few years

Or, too many young players. It often takes time for players to develop at the position. We've got young upside, and that upside may prove to provide a solution in the future.


That's a really optimistic statement. Outside of Slay, I find little upside in our secondary.


Slay is only one with upside


So we ought to quit on Bentley, Greenwood, and Green? They have no upside?


They could all be upgraded easy

Which is completely irrelevant to the conversation based on their upside.
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Rockcity


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ya its bad. but can austin make it better,maybe
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detfan782004


Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
DrRay11 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
Maverick12 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
It's horrid. Too many CB projects over last few years

Or, too many young players. It often takes time for players to develop at the position. We've got young upside, and that upside may prove to provide a solution in the future.


That's a really optimistic statement. Outside of Slay, I find little upside in our secondary.


Slay is only one with upside


So we ought to quit on Bentley, Greenwood, and Green? They have no upside?




They could all be upgraded easy

Which is completely irrelevant to the conversation based on their upside.


Lionized. Lions fans been screaming upside, potential, talent yada yada yada for 20 years. One playoff game. Upside my rear. Tired of this upside talk
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RIP CITY


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The secondary definitely needs upgrades IMO, at CB and S. I like Slay and Greenwood's potential as much as the next guy but that doesn't mean you don't keep adding. Adding another CB isn't giving up on them either. For two reasons... 1. They will be able to compete for their roles still and 2. The position of CB needs depth as much, if not more, than any other position. Particularly here in Detroit, where most seasons it seems like they drop like flies due to injuries. Safety isn't any better off, Quinn is above average, Ihedigbo is average, Carey is an ok backup and they have nothing else. Ihedigbo is a stop gap, they need to add at least a young developmental guy behind Quinn/Ihedigbo.

I don't like Bentley at all, don't see any real upside there. I think both Greenwood and Green will surpass him in their develop soon enough. They both looked better in coverage in their short stints than Bentley ever has IMO. Green has the upside to become a solid #3 or #4 guy, a good insurance policy in case one the 2 starters or the Nickel go down or he could possibly become the Nickel CB himself but beyond that I don't see it.

The secondary is, and has been the biggest weakness on this team for years now. To say it doesn't need help is nonsensical. Yes, it's fair to expect improvement from the young guys, but you can't rest on that alone. How much better are they really going to get in 1 season anyway? Just because CB's take time to develop, doesn't mean you can't find a guy that can come in and have an impact in their first year. Look at Casey Hayward of the Packers, he wasn't a Top 10 Pick or considered an elite prospect and he came in in his Rookie year and had an impact. Talent is talent, adding a guy like Gilbert or Clinton-Dix would be good to me. I don't believe they are reaches at #10. And in a trade down scenario, I like Dennard/Pryor/Fuller quite as bit as well. Jimmy Ward possibly in the 2nd Round. Adding talent to a weakness is never a bad thing.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
DrRay11 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
Maverick12 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
It's horrid. Too many CB projects over last few years

Or, too many young players. It often takes time for players to develop at the position. We've got young upside, and that upside may prove to provide a solution in the future.


That's a really optimistic statement. Outside of Slay, I find little upside in our secondary.


Slay is only one with upside


So we ought to quit on Bentley, Greenwood, and Green? They have no upside?


They could all be upgraded easy

Which is completely irrelevant to the conversation based on their upside.


The thread title is asking if the Lions secondary is really that bad.

Upside until realized can't be depended upon. One can't assume the secondary is better because they have upside.

Right now, today, the Lions secondary isn't good.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
DrRay11 wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
Maverick12 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
It's horrid. Too many CB projects over last few years

Or, too many young players. It often takes time for players to develop at the position. We've got young upside, and that upside may prove to provide a solution in the future.


That's a really optimistic statement. Outside of Slay, I find little upside in our secondary.


Slay is only one with upside


So we ought to quit on Bentley, Greenwood, and Green? They have no upside?


They could all be upgraded easy

Which is completely irrelevant to the conversation based on their upside.


The thread title is asking if the Lions secondary is really that bad.

Upside until realized can't be depended upon. One can't assume the secondary is better because they have upside.

Right now, today, the Lions secondary isn't good.


The OP however asked about the coaching and if that's why the young potential had not improved much. Right now, with the system our previous coaches ran, our secondary was not great. However this group of CBs with no pass rush gave up the 20th most pass yards and and were 250 yards away from being top 10. There were three or four teams that were significantly better then the rest and then a big group of teams that were within 300 yards of each other. We were not that bad in comparison unless you are comparing us only to Seattle or Houston. Point is we have drafted talent, we have to have the coaches that develop that talent.
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nagahide13


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our secondary is pretty bad. It's made to look even worse though... Our run defense is good. Teams have to respect our offense, so they air the ball out. Our offense isn't exactly built around killing clock... And has been surprisingly anemic. We don't blitz well, so opposing QBs don't have to worry about pressure from anyone except the front 4.

I think of it like this; We're built in the style of the 2009 Saints. A fast paced offense that puts TONS of points on the board. Keeping pace and the defensive front force opponents to constantly press, taking big risks in the air. A secondary that may give up yards by the truckload, but capitalizes on those risks by constantly forcing turnovers.

The big problems with that strategy? They backfire on us.

1. Our offense isn't nearly good enough. We're unable to move the ball. We get scored on once or twice. Now we're pressing, and the opposing team is beating us with our own strategy. Not necessarily on purpose, even...
2. Even if our offense is on and our gameplan is in effect, our defense can't create the turnovers. Say what you want about Cliff Avril, (I still say he wasn't worth 10 per) but since he left town we haven't had a guy that's really a threat to create turnovers. Even if it's just a "right time, right place" guy like Jarius Byrd... And let's not pretend that Levy's fluke 6 pick season was anything more than that. He's a great player that I'm psyched to have, but he's not having another 6 pick season in his career. That's not him.


So yeah, our secondary sucks, but we also put a ton of pressure on them. Putting a bunch of pressure on a weak unit is always a horrible idea... Especially when your offense can't cover the difference. It's a bad unit that we make appear even worse.
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Arbitrage


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Secondary really is that bad; they can be counted on to fold at nearly any crucial time. That might be one thing if this were a blitzing defense that left people out on an island, which is bound to get you burned from time to time, but our DBs get burned regardless.
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Jrugges


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think are CB's are that great but I usually don't like addressing CB's with tons of money anyways. They get hurt throughout the season and teams seem to need like 3 or 4 really good ones to be a really good backfield now. It'd be better for the Lions if the defensive line could live up to the hype.
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thenoilif


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]

Lionized. Lions fans been screaming upside, potential, talent yada yada yada for 20 years. One playoff game. Upside my rear. Tired of this upside talk[/quote]

Of course fans and even organizations repeatedly talk upside when it comes to drafted players because every team doesn't get 7 1st round draft picks every year where they can get NFL ready talent. Picks that come in rounds 2-7 can have NFL level talent but it diminishes the farther down the draft you go and usually needs additional coaching and for all of their skills to be honed to be able to play on the next level. Great teams find the players with the most upside and help them realize their potential whereas constant bottom feeder teams like the Lions struggle in this key aspect of developing a winning team.

And as with any unit, secondaries are mostly successful because they work as a systematic unit. Take Seattle for example. They have one guy, Earl Thomas, who was considered an elite and NFL ready talent coming out. He was able to come right in and be successful but it took a couple of years before the entire secondary became the dominant unit it is today because many of the other guys had talent but they were raw and needed to be coached up to play as a single unit. It culminated in the SB where we saw that secondary systematically dominate another well oiled unit in Denver's passing attack because they feed off each other perfectly. That cohesion is from coaching.

The problem with the Lions and why they are rarely able to be successful is because they have relied so much on individual talent to carry the team (90s saw Barry carry the team, now they are relying on the big 3) and don't focus on developing the different units. They appear to be having some success on the OL but they continue to dump key resources in WR (since the Millen era) and DL but due to personnel management problems with Young, Williams x 3, Broyles, Fairley, and even Suh to some degree, all guys with great to elite talent, the team could possibly be back to square one with this units unless Tate shows up, Suh shows a bit more motivation for wanting to be a Lion and Fairley steps up his game. The fact that many are mocking Donald or the team moving up for Watkins given what the team has invested in these positions over the last decade.

Outside of Broyles injury problems, all of this comes down to personnel management, team chemistry, and development which falls on the FO and coaching. The only change this off season was to the coaching staff so hopefully Caldwell and Co. can come in and bring this team together and finally change the culture.
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X_Factor_40


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They certainly aren't great, that's for sure.

You can realistically say that the vast majority of NFL players have great "potential" when they're young. It doesn't mean it's true. You have to define what role you see Bentley, Greenwood, Slay, etc. filling, and then you can debate whether or not they'll make it. Not all of them will be top end CB's in the league. It's just not realistic, and even if they all did end up becoming top end talents they wouldn't all stay or be successful at the same time.

There are too many "if" statements thrown around and the word potential is so over-used.

The Lions need to add talent to the secondary, it's really that simple. At the very least they need depth at the position, but that can be said about almost all positions on the team. You don't have success in the NFL without depth. The Lions just don't have that.
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MrDirt


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I found Mel Kiper's 'Grade:A Draft' and it relates to this discussion very well.

Quote:
For this, I'm the GM -- for every team. Typically I'm asked to project picks. But for the "Grade A" draft, I make them. Each pick I select what I might for that team, in that spot, based on who is gone and who is available. Best outcome for each team at each spot.

The ground rules

1. At each slot, I make a pick in the best interest of only the team with the pick. I won't pass on a player at No. 5 just because I like how he fits better at No. 7.
2. There are no trades. I note team needs, but not all picks are specifically to hit a need -- same as the draft.
3. This is NOT A PROJECTION. It's more a look at how I currently value players at each slot.


Detroit Lions

Top needs: CB, S, DE, WR, OLB

Round 1 (10) CB Justin Gilbert, Oklahoma St.
Round 2 (45) LB Kyle Van Noy, BYU
Round 3 (76) CB Phillip Gaines, Rice


I would like the first two picks, but I'm not sure I would want them to take another CB in the 3rd.
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