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Jadeveon Clowney visits the Lions. Smokescreen?
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIP CITY wrote:
SuhPLEX wrote:
What if we picked Mack or Clowney?


Clowney might be that type of guy. I'd definitely consider it for him. Honestly wouldn't feel comfortable making that decision without being able to talk to him, do a comprehensive background check on him regarding his question marks. But he's the only player I think might be worth the risk of giving up those extra assets.

I love Mack as a prospect too but no, I don't think I would do it for him either. I will say that I would be less concerned about the cost, if we traded up for one of them. I think pass rushers and defense is more important than WR's and offense. I like Watkins alot but I don't like the cost to go up to get him. If it does happen though, I won't agree with it but I'll still be happy to have Watkins, I think he's a very good player. I just don't think the cost is worth it.

Well, it depends what the cost is. What picks would you be willing to give up, regardless of "where" we want to move up to?
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skatebeanz


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
Louis Friend wrote:
I hope they trade up and trade up for Sammy Watkins. I want the best team possible and that team needs WRs. I personally don't believe Calvin Johnson is healthy and we've seen how this team falters without him. We've invested, not only draft picks and money into our offense, but went out and put together a coaching staff to make this offense run smoothly. And now people don't want players on the field to make it work? Makes very little sense to me. But such is the life of Lions fans I suppose. Listening to what fans want is hysterical (myself included). Hopefully, the Lions do what they think is best, and from most accounts so far, we know it's leaning in one very heavy direction. Wink


They have said nothing of sort. Only one showing this is Watkins himself
I guess if the team doesn't say they want Watkins they don't want him. I never heard them say they wanted Patrick Peterson so I don't think they wanted him.

/ sarcasm

The entire league is talking about how the Lions are looking to move up. 1 maybe 2 people saying it, could mean smoke screen. the entire league talking about it? Probably/most likely has some legs.
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rob_shadows


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d_stanton2lions wrote:
rob_shadows wrote:
I'd honestly rather have Donald even if trading up wasn't required and both were available at 10. Clowney is all athletic ability IMO, his technique needs a lot of work and his drive and motivation are highly quesionable. Donald has a motor that never stops, incredibly impressive technique (read a breakdown that pointed out the number of pass rushing moves he uses regularly being vastly superior to most elite D-lineman coming out of college and even superior to a lot of seasoned NFL vets as well as he rarity for D-lineman to use combination moves as frequently and effectively as he does), and isn't far behind Clowney athletically...doesn't have the "speed" of Clowney but is just as quick off the line and much stronger.

Given the fact that D-lineman will rarely ever use "40 speed" and the fact that top speed and size are about all Clowney has over Donald I seriously don't understand why he's rated so much higher to most people, Donald is just as talented, far more "NFL ready" due to his vastly superior technique and has zero character or work ethic concerns.


How is his drive and work ethic highly questionable outside of highly questionable reports that really have no confirmed foundation?

I just don't see how someone could say Donald is better than Clowney. To each there own I suppose. I just don't see anything close to that.


I'm not basing it off "questionable reports" I'm basing it off what I've seen when I watched him play. I only watched 3 or 4 SC games this year but in every one it was extremely obvious that he wasn't going 100% all the time.

I'm not saying Donald is "Better" per say but rather "safer" and Clowney certainly isn't so much higher than Donald that it's worth giving up the extremely high price it would take to trade up to the top 3 to land him.

Another thing I didn't mention is the fact that Donald would give us some insurance if things don't work out with Suh and/or Fairley with both contracts (and Fairleys consistancy) an issue for the team. Donald has played all 4 spots on the line and done so effectively, we could start him at DE this year and if Suh or Fairley are gone next year kick him inside or keep him outside depending on what's available at DT and DE in the draft/FA next year.

Fact is if Donald was 3-5 inches taller Clowney wouldn't even be rated so highly above him and it'd be 1a and 1b with them as far as the D-lineman in this draft go (some, including myself already believe it is).

Other than size there is literally no logical reason to place Clowney so far ahead of him, his 10 yard split was a mere one hundredth of a second slower than Clowney's indicating he's just as quick off the line but his strength and technique are both FAR beyond Clowney. The technique can be taught and Clowney could improve his strength but it's not likely he'll ever improve it to be on Donalds level in that regard.
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting theory I saw somewhere today. Could the reason the Lions are so transparent about wanting to move up be that they are trying to get one of those teams at the top to make the first move? Basic economics says that the price would be cheaper if you get someone else to approach you. Also, if everyone in the world knows we're trying to move up, and a few teams want to move back, they could drive the price down for us. If Houston and St. Louis both want to move back for the guy they're targeting, we could get a deal.

Thoughts?
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hardlion


Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rob_shadows wrote:
I'd honestly rather have Donald even if trading up wasn't required and both were available at 10. Clowney is all athletic ability IMO, his technique needs a lot of work and his drive and motivation are highly quesionable. Donald has a motor that never stops, incredibly impressive technique (read a breakdown that pointed out the number of pass rushing moves he uses regularly being vastly superior to most elite D-lineman coming out of college and even superior to a lot of seasoned NFL vets as well as he rarity for D-lineman to use combination moves as frequently and effectively as he does), and isn't far behind Clowney athletically...doesn't have the "speed" of Clowney but is just as quick off the line and much stronger.

Given the fact that D-lineman will rarely ever use "40 speed" and the fact that top speed and size are about all Clowney has over Donald I seriously don't understand why he's rated so much higher to most people, Donald is just as talented, far more "NFL ready" due to his vastly superior technique and has zero character or work ethic concerns.


Seriously? Hmmm, day drinking?
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
Louis Friend wrote:
I hope they trade up and trade up for Sammy Watkins. I want the best team possible and that team needs WRs. I personally don't believe Calvin Johnson is healthy and we've seen how this team falters without him. We've invested, not only draft picks and money into our offense, but went out and put together a coaching staff to make this offense run smoothly. And now people don't want players on the field to make it work? Makes very little sense to me. But such is the life of Lions fans I suppose. Listening to what fans want is hysterical (myself included). Hopefully, the Lions do what they think is best, and from most accounts so far, we know it's leaning in one very heavy direction. Wink


They have said nothing of sort. Only one showing this is Watkins himself
I guess if the team doesn't say they want Watkins they don't want him. I never heard them say they wanted Patrick Peterson so I don't think they wanted him.

/ sarcasm

The entire league is talking about how the Lions are looking to move up. 1 maybe 2 people saying it, could mean smoke screen. the entire league talking about it? Probably/most likely has some legs.


Moving up doesn't mean Watkins. He said Detroit voiced how bad they wanted Watkins. That's false
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rob_shadows


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardlion wrote:
rob_shadows wrote:
I'd honestly rather have Donald even if trading up wasn't required and both were available at 10. Clowney is all athletic ability IMO, his technique needs a lot of work and his drive and motivation are highly quesionable. Donald has a motor that never stops, incredibly impressive technique (read a breakdown that pointed out the number of pass rushing moves he uses regularly being vastly superior to most elite D-lineman coming out of college and even superior to a lot of seasoned NFL vets as well as he rarity for D-lineman to use combination moves as frequently and effectively as he does), and isn't far behind Clowney athletically...doesn't have the "speed" of Clowney but is just as quick off the line and much stronger.

Given the fact that D-lineman will rarely ever use "40 speed" and the fact that top speed and size are about all Clowney has over Donald I seriously don't understand why he's rated so much higher to most people, Donald is just as talented, far more "NFL ready" due to his vastly superior technique and has zero character or work ethic concerns.


Seriously? Hmmm, day drinking?


As I said in my second post in this thread size (well height anyway) and 40 speed (which matters 0 with d-lineman, plus lets not pretend a 4.68 isn't spectacular for a 285lb d-lineman as well) are literally all Clowney has on Donald, I take that back...he does have a better vertical too but Donald had the better 3-cone (MUCH more relevant to D-lineman than the 40 or vertical). Donald is MUCH stronger, has MUCH more polished technique and a MUCH higher motor on him. Although I do need to correct an error in my previous post and give Clowney credit as his 10 yard split was actually 3 hundredths of a second faster than Donald, phew....man he's SOOOOO much quicker Rolling Eyes.

Here is the breakdown for you:

Height: Clowney
Weight: Donald
Top Speed: Clowney
Quickness: Clowney by a teeny tiny bit
Strength: Donald
Vertical: Clowney
Agility/COD: Donald (much better 3-cone and better 20 yard shuttle though not by much)
Technique (moves in repertoire, use of hands, etc...): Donald by a mile
Motor: Donald

If we were talking about LB or S I could understand Clowney being rated so much higher...but we're not, we're talking about DL and Donald outperformed Clowney in most of the drills actually relevant to D-lineman and was on par with him in those he didn't (aside from the vertical where Clowney was much better) while also having the far more impressive tape when you evaluate their technique and consistency in performance.

The Clowney hype got way out of hand a long time ago, because of his height and 40 time people expect him to be the next Julius Peppers or Mario Williams but he isn't on that level as a prospect no matter how much people want him to be, he has the height and speed but that's all.
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Last edited by rob_shadows on Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 hundredths of a second difference in a 10 yard split is more significant than it sounds.
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rob_shadows


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
3 hundredths of a second difference in a 10 yard split is more significant than it sounds.


I'm just saying it's not a big enough difference to put Clowney as far ahead of Donald as people do when Donald bests him in most other categories relevant to D-line and as I said earlier sure as hell ain't significant enough to put him so far ahead of Donald that we give up a fortune to get him (and lets be honest it would take exactly that to move into the top 3).
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
3 hundredths of a second difference in a 10 yard split is more significant than it sounds.


Combine has overblown times. Not that big a deal in diff
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Louis Friend


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
Louis Friend wrote:
I hope they trade up and trade up for Sammy Watkins. I want the best team possible and that team needs WRs. I personally don't believe Calvin Johnson is healthy and we've seen how this team falters without him. We've invested, not only draft picks and money into our offense, but went out and put together a coaching staff to make this offense run smoothly. And now people don't want players on the field to make it work? Makes very little sense to me. But such is the life of Lions fans I suppose. Listening to what fans want is hysterical (myself included). Hopefully, the Lions do what they think is best, and from most accounts so far, we know it's leaning in one very heavy direction. Wink


They have said nothing of sort. Only one showing this is Watkins himself
I guess if the team doesn't say they want Watkins they don't want him. I never heard them say they wanted Patrick Peterson so I don't think they wanted him.

/ sarcasm

The entire league is talking about how the Lions are looking to move up. 1 maybe 2 people saying it, could mean smoke screen. the entire league talking about it? Probably/most likely has some legs.


Moving up doesn't mean Watkins. He said Detroit voiced how bad they wanted Watkins. That's false


I didn't say "Detroit voiced" anything since you want to play the semantics game. You're statement would be false.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
3 hundredths of a second difference in a 10 yard split is more significant than it sounds.


Combine has overblown times. Not that big a deal in diff
yeah, combine numbers should only be used to confirm what you see on tape, not to form an opinion and argument.
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Rockcity


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
3 hundredths of a second difference in a 10 yard split is more significant than it sounds.


Combine has overblown times. Not that big a deal in diff
combine has overblown times?
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Jrugges


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My do people act like Forty times don't matter at all? They definitely do matter. Especailly for edge rushers, and Clowneys not just "fast" he's so smooth/fluid he's as quick as most WR's on the field, except he's lined up at DE.

Not many people come out like Jadevon Clowney, 10-15 year type guy like everyone is saying. The last guy I remember like this was Mario Williams. He's not going to get smaller either, if anytinhg the guy could get bigger and stronger with what he's already got.

If your confident in your coaching staff as a GM/scouting staff you have to have Jadevon Clowney number one on your big board. Who cares about technique you can teach it, not that it matters too much because he's beating guys straight up.

One thing you can't coach or teach. Talent. Clowney is absolutely loaded with talent. Ziggy/Suh/Clowney would be incrediable moving forward and would give G.B./CHI nightmares Saturday evenings.
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bigc421


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rob_shadows wrote:
d_stanton2lions wrote:
rob_shadows wrote:
I'd honestly rather have Donald even if trading up wasn't required and both were available at 10. Clowney is all athletic ability IMO, his technique needs a lot of work and his drive and motivation are highly quesionable. Donald has a motor that never stops, incredibly impressive technique (read a breakdown that pointed out the number of pass rushing moves he uses regularly being vastly superior to most elite D-lineman coming out of college and even superior to a lot of seasoned NFL vets as well as he rarity for D-lineman to use combination moves as frequently and effectively as he does), and isn't far behind Clowney athletically...doesn't have the "speed" of Clowney but is just as quick off the line and much stronger.

Given the fact that D-lineman will rarely ever use "40 speed" and the fact that top speed and size are about all Clowney has over Donald I seriously don't understand why he's rated so much higher to most people, Donald is just as talented, far more "NFL ready" due to his vastly superior technique and has zero character or work ethic concerns.


How is his drive and work ethic highly questionable outside of highly questionable reports that really have no confirmed foundation?

I just don't see how someone could say Donald is better than Clowney. To each there own I suppose. I just don't see anything close to that.


I'm not basing it off "questionable reports" I'm basing it off what I've seen when I watched him play. I only watched 3 or 4 SC games this year but in every one it was extremely obvious that he wasn't going 100% all the time.

I'm not saying Donald is "Better" per say but rather "safer" and Clowney certainly isn't so much higher than Donald that it's worth giving up the extremely high price it would take to trade up to the top 3 to land him.

Another thing I didn't mention is the fact that Donald would give us some insurance if things don't work out with Suh and/or Fairley with both contracts (and Fairleys consistancy) an issue for the team. Donald has played all 4 spots on the line and done so effectively, we could start him at DE this year and if Suh or Fairley are gone next year kick him inside or keep him outside depending on what's available at DT and DE in the draft/FA next year.

Fact is if Donald was 3-5 inches taller Clowney wouldn't even be rated so highly above him and it'd be 1a and 1b with them as far as the D-lineman in this draft go (some, including myself already believe it is).

Other than size there is literally no logical reason to place Clowney so far ahead of him, his 10 yard split was a mere one hundredth of a second slower than Clowney's indicating he's just as quick off the line but his strength and technique are both FAR beyond Clowney. The technique can be taught and Clowney could improve his strength but it's not likely he'll ever improve it to be on Donalds level in that regard.


I tend to agree for the most part except I don't think Donald makes it to 10 either. It all depends on what happens with the qb's. I'd have to take Clowney over Donald but like you said the difference isn't as much as you mite think. Clowney is going to be a star in the league regardless of how much he matures. If it really clicks for him a few years down the line and he puts in he work he's going to be a hall of famer, but even if it doesn't he is still going to be a very disruptive player in this league.

I just keep becoming more enamored with Donald every time I watch him. He just has it all and can play in any scheme. From everything I've read his dedication to self improvement and film study is second to none. Very safe player i have little doubt he is going to be a force in the league.
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