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I think that DE is really our biggest draft need

 
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ICB 45


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject: I think that DE is really our biggest draft need Reply with quote

The more I think about it, the more I am tempted to think that DE is the biggest need in this draft for us. In key situations throughout the past 5 seasons or so, our defense has failed to get off the field in crucial situations. The main reason for this has been the lack of a pass rush and the reluctance to blitz.

I love Rob Ninkovich just as much as the next guy and he definitely has a place on this team going forward, but do you really have much faith in him getting to the QB on a key 3rd and long in the playoffs? And for as much as he is lauded for his "big plays" it just seems to me as if he constantly puts up numbers against the Buffalo Bills of the world in meaningless games and comes up small in big situations.

I know that many people will bring up the needs at DT, TE and WR. However, a DT mix of Vince Wilfork, Tommy Kelly, Armon Armstead (who a lot of people seem to be forgetting about), Sealver Siliga, Joe Vellano and Chris Jones. I think that WR has a lot of young pieces already and do not see a player outside of Sammy Watkins or Marqise Lee who would be a clear upgrade. As far as TE, I think that position could be better addressed by adding a competent #2 in free agency rather than reaching on our first round pick on a guy like Seferian-Jenkins.

We literally have zero depth at the DE position and it really is amazing that Chandler Jones has been able to produce with no help at all from the rest of the defense as far as threats. None of the backups last year had more than 2 sacks. I would say that we should definitely take a pass rusher with our first selection, but unfortunately, this appears to be a incredibly weak class in that regard.
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derekstanggt


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: I think that DE is really our biggest draft need Reply with quote

ICB 45 wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am tempted to think that DE is the biggest need in this draft for us. In key situations throughout the past 5 seasons or so, our defense has failed to get off the field in crucial situations. The main reason for this has been the lack of a pass rush and the reluctance to blitz.

I love Rob Ninkovich just as much as the next guy and he definitely has a place on this team going forward, but do you really have much faith in him getting to the QB on a key 3rd and long in the playoffs? And for as much as he is lauded for his "big plays" it just seems to me as if he constantly puts up numbers against the Buffalo Bills of the world in meaningless games and comes up small in big situations.

I know that many people will bring up the needs at DT, TE and WR. However, a DT mix of Vince Wilfork, Tommy Kelly, Armon Armstead (who a lot of people seem to be forgetting about), Sealver Siliga, Joe Vellano and Chris Jones. I think that WR has a lot of young pieces already and do not see a player outside of Sammy Watkins or Marqise Lee who would be a clear upgrade. As far as TE, I think that position could be better addressed by adding a competent #2 in free agency rather than reaching on our first round pick on a guy like Seferian-Jenkins.

We literally have zero depth at the DE position and it really is amazing that Chandler Jones has been able to produce with no help at all from the rest of the defense as far as threats. None of the backups last year had more than 2 sacks. I would say that we should definitely take a pass rusher with our first selection, but unfortunately, this appears to be a incredibly weak class in that regard.


I'm with you on a few things. I definitely don't think WR is a need, but I would like a TE, but maybe in the 2nd.

As for DE, would you want to target a 4-3 or 3-4 DE? I think we could be a solid 3-4 DE away from a very stout defense. Ninkovich could slide over to OLB along with Collins, and Hightower and Mayo at ILB. Whereas if we targeted a 4-3 DE, I see the team still badly needing another good DT next to Wilfork.

Also, who do you think would be available at the 29th pick? Is this a need you'd be willing to trade up for?
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: I think that DE is really our biggest draft need Reply with quote

ICB 45 wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am tempted to think that DE is the biggest need in this draft for us. In key situations throughout the past 5 seasons or so, our defense has failed to get off the field in crucial situations. The main reason for this has been the lack of a pass rush and the reluctance to blitz.

I love Rob Ninkovich just as much as the next guy and he definitely has a place on this team going forward, but do you really have much faith in him getting to the QB on a key 3rd and long in the playoffs? And for as much as he is lauded for his "big plays" it just seems to me as if he constantly puts up numbers against the Buffalo Bills of the world in meaningless games and comes up small in big situations.

I know that many people will bring up the needs at DT, TE and WR. However, a DT mix of Vince Wilfork, Tommy Kelly, Armon Armstead (who a lot of people seem to be forgetting about), Sealver Siliga, Joe Vellano and Chris Jones. I think that WR has a lot of young pieces already and do not see a player outside of Sammy Watkins or Marqise Lee who would be a clear upgrade. As far as TE, I think that position could be better addressed by adding a competent #2 in free agency rather than reaching on our first round pick on a guy like Seferian-Jenkins.

We literally have zero depth at the DE position and it really is amazing that Chandler Jones has been able to produce with no help at all from the rest of the defense as far as threats. None of the backups last year had more than 2 sacks. I would say that we should definitely take a pass rusher with our first selection, but unfortunately, this appears to be a incredibly weak class in that regard.


I agree that we need a DE but I don't think the marginal benefit of improving at DE is as great as it is at DT. As we saw when Kelly was healthy, having a DT who can get the quarterback off his spot completely changes the dynamic of the defense.

Which is why I would trade up for one of Tuitt and Hageman if the opportunity presented itself. Get a guy with violent hands and explosive ability (our own Sheldon Richardson if you will) to rush the passer.
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ICB 45


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: I think that DE is really our biggest draft need Reply with quote

derekstanggt wrote:
ICB 45 wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I am tempted to think that DE is the biggest need in this draft for us. In key situations throughout the past 5 seasons or so, our defense has failed to get off the field in crucial situations. The main reason for this has been the lack of a pass rush and the reluctance to blitz.

I love Rob Ninkovich just as much as the next guy and he definitely has a place on this team going forward, but do you really have much faith in him getting to the QB on a key 3rd and long in the playoffs? And for as much as he is lauded for his "big plays" it just seems to me as if he constantly puts up numbers against the Buffalo Bills of the world in meaningless games and comes up small in big situations.

I know that many people will bring up the needs at DT, TE and WR. However, a DT mix of Vince Wilfork, Tommy Kelly, Armon Armstead (who a lot of people seem to be forgetting about), Sealver Siliga, Joe Vellano and Chris Jones. I think that WR has a lot of young pieces already and do not see a player outside of Sammy Watkins or Marqise Lee who would be a clear upgrade. As far as TE, I think that position could be better addressed by adding a competent #2 in free agency rather than reaching on our first round pick on a guy like Seferian-Jenkins.

We literally have zero depth at the DE position and it really is amazing that Chandler Jones has been able to produce with no help at all from the rest of the defense as far as threats. None of the backups last year had more than 2 sacks. I would say that we should definitely take a pass rusher with our first selection, but unfortunately, this appears to be a incredibly weak class in that regard.


I'm with you on a few things. I definitely don't think WR is a need, but I would like a TE, but maybe in the 2nd.

As for DE, would you want to target a 4-3 or 3-4 DE? I think we could be a solid 3-4 DE away from a very stout defense. Ninkovich could slide over to OLB along with Collins, and Hightower and Mayo at ILB. Whereas if we targeted a 4-3 DE, I see the team still badly needing another good DT next to Wilfork.

Also, who do you think would be available at the 29th pick? Is this a need you'd be willing to trade up for?


If you switched a 3-4, you would need to draft 2 3-4 DE's in this draft. I would rather have Chandler Jones as an OLB in that scheme. I don't see that happening. Like I said, this class is incredibly weak at DE. The only guy I would probably consider at 29 is Kony Ealy. I see Tuitt more as an interior player, who would be versatile if we wanted to run mixed packages. As far as trading up, there is no one worth trading up for aside from a king's ransom for Clowney if he dropped to 10ish. I have to think that Belichick would at least consider that in that situation.
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dhunt2402


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuitt is a guy that can play UT or LE very effectively in a four man front. Fits the bill of a guy that could give us some valuable flexibility along the defensive line, depending on the game situation. Wouldn't hesitate for a second to take him if he's there at 29.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming Wilfork will be back to his old self is a bit of a stretch. Achilles injuries are often career altering and he has a lot of wear on him already.

Kelly is coming off an injury too, less chance of it affecting him but he's getting old and is only signed for 1 more year.

The guys who played this year ranged from adequate backup caliber players to guys who shouldn't be in the NFL.

I don't think people are forgetting about Armstead, but I don't see any reason to expect much from him.

There are a ton of short and long term concerns at the position and even if Wilfork/Kelly are healthy, there needs to be a young starting caliber player in the pipeline.

Ninkovich is upgradeable for sure but the impact is likely going to be much less than an upgrade at DT.

If Wilfork and Kelly were 28 and coming off minor injuries, I might agree with you. But there's a good chance that Wilfork will be reduced and Kelly will almost certainly be gone within 12 months time. Either not retained next year or cut this year for cap/decline in performance.

As for needs, if Talib isn't back, CB is a bigger need than DE. Interior OL is as well.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see it as being an either/or proposition. I'd like to upgrade both positions. If they have a shot at a top prospect for both, I'd probably lean DT, but I wouldn't be opposed to coming right back and drafting a DE in the next round.
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dhunt2402


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
I don't see it as being an either/or proposition. I'd like to upgrade both positions. If they have a shot at a top prospect for both, I'd probably lean DT, but I wouldn't be opposed to coming right back and drafting a DE in the next round.


Or just draft Tuitt and kill both birds with one stone!

3 man DE rotation of Jones/Ninkovich/Tuitt

4 man DT rotation of Wilfork/Kelly/Tuitt/FA Signing (Melton? K Williams? Art Jones? Along those lines)

Add another DE later in the draft for good measure.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I don't see it as being an either/or proposition. I'd like to upgrade both positions. If they have a shot at a top prospect for both, I'd probably lean DT, but I wouldn't be opposed to coming right back and drafting a DE in the next round.


Or just draft Tuitt and kill both birds with one stone!

3 man DE rotation of Jones/Ninkovich/Tuitt

4 man DT rotation of Wilfork/Kelly/Tuitt/FA Signing (Melton? K Williams? Art Jones? Along those lines)

Add another DE later in the draft for good measure.

I see Tuitt as a DT and 5 technique end, not a true end in a four man front. I hate to keep going back to the Seahawks, but I do think this defense would benefit from that Red Bryant type player, a DE with a DT's body over left end. It would immediately shore up the weakness in run defense that Ninkovich presents at times, and give them options as far as bringing pressure with linebackers. Having that kind of a player that you can rotate inside on passing downs and replace with a true edge rusher is the kind of versatility this defense needs.
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dhunt2402


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I don't see it as being an either/or proposition. I'd like to upgrade both positions. If they have a shot at a top prospect for both, I'd probably lean DT, but I wouldn't be opposed to coming right back and drafting a DE in the next round.


Or just draft Tuitt and kill both birds with one stone!

3 man DE rotation of Jones/Ninkovich/Tuitt

4 man DT rotation of Wilfork/Kelly/Tuitt/FA Signing (Melton? K Williams? Art Jones? Along those lines)

Add another DE later in the draft for good measure.

I see Tuitt as a DT and 5 technique end, not a true end in a four man front. I hate to keep going back to the Seahawks, but I do think this defense would benefit from that Red Bryant type player, a DE with a DT's body over left end. It would immediately shore up the weakness in run defense that Ninkovich presents at times, and give them options as far as bringing pressure with linebackers. Having that kind of a player that you can rotate inside on passing downs and replace with a true edge rusher is the kind of versatility this defense needs.


Am I wrong in thinking that Tuitt could be that guy? He's a bit taller and not quite as big as Bryant, but he's strong at the point of attack and generates a pretty nice pass rush for a natural defensive tackle.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I don't see it as being an either/or proposition. I'd like to upgrade both positions. If they have a shot at a top prospect for both, I'd probably lean DT, but I wouldn't be opposed to coming right back and drafting a DE in the next round.


Or just draft Tuitt and kill both birds with one stone!

3 man DE rotation of Jones/Ninkovich/Tuitt

4 man DT rotation of Wilfork/Kelly/Tuitt/FA Signing (Melton? K Williams? Art Jones? Along those lines)

Add another DE later in the draft for good measure.

I see Tuitt as a DT and 5 technique end, not a true end in a four man front. I hate to keep going back to the Seahawks, but I do think this defense would benefit from that Red Bryant type player, a DE with a DT's body over left end. It would immediately shore up the weakness in run defense that Ninkovich presents at times, and give them options as far as bringing pressure with linebackers. Having that kind of a player that you can rotate inside on passing downs and replace with a true edge rusher is the kind of versatility this defense needs.


Am I wrong in thinking that Tuitt could be that guy? He's a bit taller and not quite as big as Bryant, but he's strong at the point of attack and generates a pretty nice pass rush for a natural defensive tackle.

No, that's why I brought the comparison up. They've got the pieces in place to run that kind of front for the most part. Jones becomes the Leo, playing that elephant role, Wilfork continues being the plugger in the middle, Collins plays the Sam linebacker spot, where his responsibilities shift between coverage and pass rush on passing plays, and Tuitt would slide in as that 5-technique end that would two gap and pressure the pocket at times. All they really need to find is an answer at strong safety (Harmon?) and 3 technique to really make it a big part of what they do. They've got depth options at those spots already, and in this scenario, Ninkovich becomes a super-sub, rotating with Collins at the Sam and Jones at the Leo position, which is the role he's best suited for. On top of that, if they want to bring more rush, they can slide Tuitt inside on passing downs and bring out another end, or play a more conventional four man front with him inside. It's why I've been most interested in getting one of Tuitt or Hageman early in the process, because they've been missing that kind of guy that can make a defense go ever since Seymour departed.
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richter wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I don't see it as being an either/or proposition. I'd like to upgrade both positions. If they have a shot at a top prospect for both, I'd probably lean DT, but I wouldn't be opposed to coming right back and drafting a DE in the next round.


Or just draft Tuitt and kill both birds with one stone!

3 man DE rotation of Jones/Ninkovich/Tuitt

4 man DT rotation of Wilfork/Kelly/Tuitt/FA Signing (Melton? K Williams? Art Jones? Along those lines)

Add another DE later in the draft for good measure.

I see Tuitt as a DT and 5 technique end, not a true end in a four man front. I hate to keep going back to the Seahawks, but I do think this defense would benefit from that Red Bryant type player, a DE with a DT's body over left end. It would immediately shore up the weakness in run defense that Ninkovich presents at times, and give them options as far as bringing pressure with linebackers. Having that kind of a player that you can rotate inside on passing downs and replace with a true edge rusher is the kind of versatility this defense needs.


Am I wrong in thinking that Tuitt could be that guy? He's a bit taller and not quite as big as Bryant, but he's strong at the point of attack and generates a pretty nice pass rush for a natural defensive tackle.

No, that's why I brought the comparison up. They've got the pieces in place to run that kind of front for the most part. Jones becomes the Leo, playing that elephant role, Wilfork continues being the plugger in the middle, Collins plays the Sam linebacker spot, where his responsibilities shift between coverage and pass rush on passing plays, and Tuitt would slide in as that 5-technique end that would two gap and pressure the pocket at times. All they really need to find is an answer at strong safety (Harmon?) and 3 technique to really make it a big part of what they do. They've got depth options at those spots already, and in this scenario, Ninkovich becomes a super-sub, rotating with Collins at the Sam and Jones at the Leo position, which is the role he's best suited for. On top of that, if they want to bring more rush, they can slide Tuitt inside on passing downs and bring out another end, or play a more conventional four man front with him inside. It's why I've been most interested in getting one of Tuitt or Hageman early in the process, because they've been missing that kind of guy that can make a defense go ever since Seymour departed.


Agreed. I've been pretty disappointed in Chandler Jones as a run stopper to be honest. I thought with his long arms, he'd develop into a "weapon" as a run stopper (i.e. way better at it than guys with his pass rushing skills normally are) but it hasn't happened. Perhaps playing next to Chris Jones/Vellano makes him look worse for the wear, or the pressure to be a one-man pass rush is making him overplay the pass. He's behind where I thought he'd be in that department.
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Richter


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

24isthelaw wrote:
Richter wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I don't see it as being an either/or proposition. I'd like to upgrade both positions. If they have a shot at a top prospect for both, I'd probably lean DT, but I wouldn't be opposed to coming right back and drafting a DE in the next round.


Or just draft Tuitt and kill both birds with one stone!

3 man DE rotation of Jones/Ninkovich/Tuitt

4 man DT rotation of Wilfork/Kelly/Tuitt/FA Signing (Melton? K Williams? Art Jones? Along those lines)

Add another DE later in the draft for good measure.

I see Tuitt as a DT and 5 technique end, not a true end in a four man front. I hate to keep going back to the Seahawks, but I do think this defense would benefit from that Red Bryant type player, a DE with a DT's body over left end. It would immediately shore up the weakness in run defense that Ninkovich presents at times, and give them options as far as bringing pressure with linebackers. Having that kind of a player that you can rotate inside on passing downs and replace with a true edge rusher is the kind of versatility this defense needs.


Am I wrong in thinking that Tuitt could be that guy? He's a bit taller and not quite as big as Bryant, but he's strong at the point of attack and generates a pretty nice pass rush for a natural defensive tackle.

No, that's why I brought the comparison up. They've got the pieces in place to run that kind of front for the most part. Jones becomes the Leo, playing that elephant role, Wilfork continues being the plugger in the middle, Collins plays the Sam linebacker spot, where his responsibilities shift between coverage and pass rush on passing plays, and Tuitt would slide in as that 5-technique end that would two gap and pressure the pocket at times. All they really need to find is an answer at strong safety (Harmon?) and 3 technique to really make it a big part of what they do. They've got depth options at those spots already, and in this scenario, Ninkovich becomes a super-sub, rotating with Collins at the Sam and Jones at the Leo position, which is the role he's best suited for. On top of that, if they want to bring more rush, they can slide Tuitt inside on passing downs and bring out another end, or play a more conventional four man front with him inside. It's why I've been most interested in getting one of Tuitt or Hageman early in the process, because they've been missing that kind of guy that can make a defense go ever since Seymour departed.


Agreed. I've been pretty disappointed in Chandler Jones as a run stopper to be honest. I thought with his long arms, he'd develop into a "weapon" as a run stopper (i.e. way better at it than guys with his pass rushing skills normally are) but it hasn't happened. Perhaps playing next to Chris Jones/Vellano makes him look worse for the wear, or the pressure to be a one-man pass rush is making him overplay the pass. He's behind where I thought he'd be in that department.

That's not really his role at RDE, and he needs more help. They have to get someone competent to play next to him inside. It's far too easy for offensive tackles to handle him outside on those plays, since they know that the DT is likely going to be handled inside, so they can cheat a bit and still not be too worried about Jones crossing their face. They have to inject some talent into the position in this draft.
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m haynes


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
Richter wrote:
I don't see it as being an either/or proposition. I'd like to upgrade both positions. If they have a shot at a top prospect for both, I'd probably lean DT, but I wouldn't be opposed to coming right back and drafting a DE in the next round.


Or just draft Tuitt and kill both birds with one stone!

3 man DE rotation of Jones/Ninkovich/Tuitt

4 man DT rotation of Wilfork/Kelly/Tuitt/FA Signing (Melton? K Williams? Art Jones? Along those lines)

Add another DE later in the draft for good measure.

I see Tuitt as a DT and 5 technique end, not a true end in a four man front. I hate to keep going back to the Seahawks, but I do think this defense would benefit from that Red Bryant type player, a DE with a DT's body over left end. It would immediately shore up the weakness in run defense that Ninkovich presents at times, and give them options as far as bringing pressure with linebackers. Having that kind of a player that you can rotate inside on passing downs and replace with a true edge rusher is the kind of versatility this defense needs.


Am I wrong in thinking that Tuitt could be that guy? He's a bit taller and not quite as big as Bryant, but he's strong at the point of attack and generates a pretty nice pass rush for a natural defensive tackle.


This might help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-yzvz3TFIQ.
I would sleep well with this pick.
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Riddler


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only DE at 29 may be Ealy.

I like Chris Smith in round 3, although could be too short for BB


In a dream situation, you sign Melton and draft Ealy at 29. Then go TE and OG and DT after (any order)
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