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The battle within

 
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 7861
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:32 am    Post subject: The battle within Reply with quote

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-battle-within.html

Quote:
The biggest difference between the scout and coach is that the scout is taught to look at the traits a player possesses and project what he can be now and in the future. The coach is more inclined to look for a finished product. Hes not trained to project what a player can be, as his focus is more geared toward the present. The drawback to this line of thinking is that there are a considerable number of juniors declaring for the draft who are not finished products.


Quote:
What the consistently good teams do is identify the type of player they want at each position. They define the traits a player needs to possess as well as the deficiencies they are willing to live with. Ownership has a say in the process as well. They want to be represented by individuals who are not going to be an embarrassment to the club and the city it represents. Those are the major tenets.

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Ward4HOF


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 3411
PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: The battle within Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-battle-within.html

Quote:
The biggest difference between the scout and coach is that the scout is taught to look at the traits a player possesses and project what he can be now and in the future. The coach is more inclined to look for a finished product. Hes not trained to project what a player can be, as his focus is more geared toward the present. The drawback to this line of thinking is that there are a considerable number of juniors declaring for the draft who are not finished products.


Quote:
What the consistently good teams do is identify the type of player they want at each position. They define the traits a player needs to possess as well as the deficiencies they are willing to live with. Ownership has a say in the process as well. They want to be represented by individuals who are not going to be an embarrassment to the club and the city it represents. Those are the major tenets.


Unless, of course, the ownership IS the embarrassment as in the...

Or they don't care about character as in the...

...you fill in the blanks, and you don't have to go outside the division to answer it! Laughing

But seriously, that does have to be a tough decision for the GM/HC when they scouts are saying this guy will be able to do X and Z...they want the player to be able to do X and Z now.

Also, the HC wants a player, the owner wants to put butts in seats, so you get the "Tim Tebow" syndrome from time to time as well.

Or if a HC is on the "hot seat", the last thing he wants is a rookie QB.

I bet there are quite a bit of "battles within". Heck, we already know about the battles between position coaches/coordinators on draft day.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is one of the reasons why I do not think they will change to a 4-3 anytime soon. They have scouts that know what to look for.

It does make me wonder about the Ziggy Hood pick...
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stillersenat


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
It is one of the reasons why I do not think they will change to a 4-3 anytime soon. They have scouts that know what to look for.

It does make me wonder about the Ziggy Hood pick...


My only guess is that they, the scouts, thought he would work well in a 3-4. Who knows. That draft and the one before it weren't the best for many clubs.
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Steeler Hitman


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1105
Location: Laurel, MD
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
It is one of the reasons why I do not think they will change to a 4-3 anytime soon. They have scouts that know what to look for.

It does make me wonder about the Ziggy Hood pick...


I was a fan of drafting Ziggy. I and I am sure the Steelers thought that with his penetrating, pass rush inside, strength and quickness, he could convert those things into a solid 3-4 DE. While he isn't 6'5 or 6'6, he does have the weight, build and skills for the position.

Evaluating football talent is like finding a woman. It depends on what you want. Are you looking for a wife or a girlfriend? Beauty or brains? Quality or quantity? A good woman or a good looking woman? Longevity and life or fast and fun?

No matter how much we use technology and science to help in the evaluation of players it is still an ART and not an exact science. We sometimes get it right with Bruce Smith's and miss with Ryan Leaf's and David Carr's.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leaf had the talent but not the personality.

There are reasons scouts/GMs like FS to be over 6' tall. There are reasons they like QB over 6'2. There are reasons why 3-4 2gap DEs are 6'4 and over. That is why I was really stunned by the Hood pick. He would still be a great UT and I hope a 4-3 team picks him up.
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jcm412


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My honest opinion is that Tomlin came in here and tried to draft athletes and not 3-4 or 4-3 players. He thought he could put players like Hood and Timmons in spots they didn't belong because of their athletic ability.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really doubt Tomlin came in and in his first year overruled the defensive coaching staff, Colbert, and the scouts to take a guy (Timmons) who they didn't think fit the defense.
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Chieferific


Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
I really doubt Tomlin came in and in his first year overruled the defensive coaching staff, Colbert, and the scouts to take a guy (Timmons) who they didn't think fit the defense.

The Steelers were sitting there waiting for Revis until the Jets swooped in. They had to know Willis wasn't gonna make it to them. The next highest Defensive player was Timmons. Look at that draft. There is not much in the 1st after the Steelers pick. At LB you have Beason and Spencer. At DB you have Leon Hall and Aaron Ross. As I see it, the Steelers didn't miss out on much. Staley was there but I doubt OT was on their board. There are few players that could be argued as a better pick...Beason (I disagree) L. Hall (I disagree), M. Griffin (I disagree) and Staley (Agree).
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staley really didn't come on until the last few years, but otherwise that's basically my sentiment. They took Timmons based on their regular draft process; not Tomlin's 4-3 history.
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Roethlisberger, on the impact of re-signing Jonathan Dwyer after Dwyer was cut because he's not very good at football: He adds the Jonathan Dwyer effect. He can be the best running back that he can be.
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Steeler Hitman


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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Location: Laurel, MD
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
Leaf had the talent but not the personality.

Everyone who plays in the NFL has talent. Everyone who is invited to the Combine has talent. I loved former Steelers safety Scott Shields. He had talent, but it didn't translate on the field on game days. Ryan Leaf, David Carr and Tim Couch were the first overall player taken. They didn't live up to anywhere near the expectations they were drafted for. At the end of the day, the players are drafted for their talent and not personalities. Leaf could have had Russel Wilson's personality and based on his play, he would have still flopped.

There are reasons scouts/GMs like FS to be over 6' tall.

Ideally because FS' tend to be more successful with height, speed, instincts, etc, but there are also Bob Sanders who buck that trend. The big CB's that the Seahawks have utilized the past few years are not the norm either.

There are reasons they like QB over 6'2.

Yet and still a second year 5'11 QB beat a prototypical pocket passer who is nearly 6'6 and considered one of the greatest QB's of all time. I'm not disagreeing with you Jetbrick, just saying that sometimes you have to go outside of the box. Hence my statement that this is an ART and not an exact SCIENCE.

There are reasons why 3-4 2gap DEs are 6'4 and over. That is why I was really stunned by the Hood pick. He would still be a great UT and I hope a 4-3 team picks him up.


I was one of the lone exceptions who thought Hood could be a solid DE for us. He has been average at best. Is it because he is probably better suited to play DT in a 4-3 maybe? I always liked Colon and thought he should have been an OG from day one. I caught a lot of opposition for that opinion. Tunch Ilkin should not have been a successful RT based on his size and height. For as much as we all like being right, we miss sometimes and that is because evaluating talent is an ART, not an exact SCIENCE.
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