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Would you draft Michael Sam?
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Would you draft Michael Sam?
Yes
50%
 50%  [ 10 ]
No
50%
 50%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 20

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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 47283
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
If the leadership on this team is that stupid, then I think that's an issue that needs to be taken up with said 'leaders' who shouldn't have that sort of role on the team to begin with. Beyond that, coaches, and the league are going to beat it into players heads not to do these sorts of things. Anyone who doesn't get the memo at that point is a lost cause.


I wasnt referring to just THIS team.

Im talking about any team.

And you should know by now that warnings against doing something wrong arent going to stop some idiots from doing it. If idiots didnt have the common sense before, they arent going to have it after a letter or warning. They might be a little more hesitant, but thats it.

Quote:
How is it entirely different? The point was a lot of guys were uncomfortable playing with him (and for good reasons, better than anything to do with Sam).

Any player could basically become a Jonathan Martin type situation if you have the wrong type of people on your team who don't reign in stupid behavior.


Its entirely different because this isnt just about "being uncomfortable".

Some people are just completely intolerant to that "lifetstyle".

And while you are correct that anyone could become a Jonathan Martin, you cant act like this doesnt have a better chance to create needless drama than the average player that comes into the league.

And again, not generated by him, but others who are intolerant to his life decisions.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 6335
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
If Sam can play, nothing else is going to matter by training camp.


This is all it comes down too.

I think whatever happens with the locker room dynamics is mostly up to the way Sam comports himself. He certainly seems like he's an articulate kid that will be able to see the nuances of a locker room and handle himself accordingly. If hes got guys small minded enough to give him a hard time despite his efforts to be a teammate then I think he will handle that appropriately also.

Martin was mentally unstable. I don't see a comp there any more than I do with Haley.


Difference is, I wasnt actually comparing Sam and Martin....I was saying that all it takes a couple idiots like those guys to create alot of drama. Even if Martin was mentally unstable, it doesnt in anyway excuse the harassment he got....and not just him, but apparently others.

Do you really think that if Sam was constantly harassed like that about his lifestyle that it wouldnt become a huge issue? Again...not saying that would be an issue here, but I seriously doubt he would let repeated abuse like that take place. Hazing is one thing.....but racial slurs and stuff like this have no place in any NFL locker room.


I probably wasn't clear with my intent. I certainly didnt mean to convey Martin somehow deserved that treatment based on his psychological issues. I was saying that Martin was vulnerable to that treatment effecting him in ways that I dont think Sam is and that both enabled the behaviors to continue and drove the aberrant response. Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry are ignorant scum no doubt. Turner maybe even worse.

I have a hard time envisioning a repeat of that situation, or even a similar one arising because I think Sam would respond to it far more appropriately, far earlier and it would never evolve like that did. For a situation like that to exist, idiots need someone willing to be a victim, I just dont think Sam comes across at all like that.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 47283
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
If Sam can play, nothing else is going to matter by training camp.


This is all it comes down too.

I think whatever happens with the locker room dynamics is mostly up to the way Sam comports himself. He certainly seems like he's an articulate kid that will be able to see the nuances of a locker room and handle himself accordingly. If hes got guys small minded enough to give him a hard time despite his efforts to be a teammate then I think he will handle that appropriately also.

Martin was mentally unstable. I don't see a comp there any more than I do with Haley.


Difference is, I wasnt actually comparing Sam and Martin....I was saying that all it takes a couple idiots like those guys to create alot of drama. Even if Martin was mentally unstable, it doesnt in anyway excuse the harassment he got....and not just him, but apparently others.

Do you really think that if Sam was constantly harassed like that about his lifestyle that it wouldnt become a huge issue? Again...not saying that would be an issue here, but I seriously doubt he would let repeated abuse like that take place. Hazing is one thing.....but racial slurs and stuff like this have no place in any NFL locker room.


I probably wasn't clear with my intent. I certainly didnt mean to convey Martin somehow deserved that treatment based on his psychological issues. I was saying that Martin was vulnerable to that treatment effecting him in ways that I dont think Sam is and that both enabled the behaviors to continue and drove the aberrant response. Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry are ignorant scum no doubt. Turner maybe even worse.

I have a hard time envisioning a repeat of that situation, or even a similar one arising because I think Sam would respond to it far more appropriately, far earlier and it would never evolve like that did. For a situation like that to exist, idiots need someone willing to be a victim, I just dont think Sam comes across at all like that.


Fair enough.

However, I still think Sam opens a team up to issues and drama moreso than the average NFL player. I dont think he would be the one to actually CREATE the drama, but if he goes to an NFL lockerroom with even ONE jacka$$....could be issues....and more than just the typical issues.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Posts: 3046
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And you should know by now that warnings against doing something wrong arent going to stop some idiots from doing it. If idiots didnt have the common sense before, they arent going to have it after a letter or warning. They might be a little more hesitant, but thats it.


Which is why I would agree that a team like the Dolphins would be a poor environment for Sam. I'm sure some other teams fall into that category. Most teams wouldn't have touched Incognito before all this. A handful of teams were still desperate or backwards enough to ignore the warning signs. They then lacked the people in house to keep him and others in check.

If Phillbin had stepped in, or some other coach, and said this is getting stupid and out of hand and it won't be tolerated, the players would have been far more likely to fall in line. Instead it was ignored and allowed to fester until it blew up. Back in the '70's Lombardi had a gay TE on his team in Washington. He simply told his team he wouldn't tolerate anyone questioning his manhood, and there were no issues. Guys respected Lombardi, and probably wanted to keep their jobs.

The league and the team that does draft Sam is going to have to do the same thing, and at that point players are going to know it's not going to be tolerated. Same with the Teo thing last year. A smart team will insulate the guy, and have their veterans stonewall the media. Everyone will have ground rules laid out before he even steps in the building. The story will die, and those with reservations will most likely come to see him as another teammate.

Quote:

Its entirely different because this isnt just about "being uncomfortable".


I'm pretty sure the mods wouldn't tolerate discussion of the particulars of what Haley pulled, but it crossed a lot of lines to the point where he needed teammates assigned as handlers. The 49ers didn't want to deal with him anymore. People can find a number of articles with a quick Google search, but this one has a few lovely anecdotes:
http://deadspin.com/389840/and-toward-me-he-charged-charles-haleys-bananas

So I'm sure some NFL players are plenty intolerant of Sam's lifestyle. And while I hate comparing him to Haley, the fact is NFL teams and players tolerated a guy they hated on top of being scared of because he could help them win. White players tolerated black players when many of them felt the same. And eventually most of them became more tolerant as they interacted with these guys and realized they weren't what they thought they were.

So, I see no reason to avoid Sam, which is inherently unjust and when NFL team's contradict the sacred concept of avoiding distractions all the time. There are gay players in the NFL. Guys will learn to deal with it as they always have. It's something that needs to happen and will. I think the Steelers organization and a number of others could handle it just fine with minimal risk being involved.

But all that said, I don't really like Sam as a player.
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Jarvis


Joined: 02 Sep 2013
Posts: 137
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would if the front office thinks he can be a player for us. Everything else is just who a person is. Everyone in every locker room is different in one way or the other.

I would almost put money on though if he is drafted here that we would be forced into hard knocks.
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Bobikus


Joined: 07 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally if I was the owner of the team, I'd probably cut anyone that would be intolerant enough to create substantial drama.
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 7090
Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
If Sam can play, nothing else is going to matter by training camp.


This is all it comes down too.

I think whatever happens with the locker room dynamics is mostly up to the way Sam comports himself. He certainly seems like he's an articulate kid that will be able to see the nuances of a locker room and handle himself accordingly. If hes got guys small minded enough to give him a hard time despite his efforts to be a teammate then I think he will handle that appropriately also.

Martin was mentally unstable. I don't see a comp there any more than I do with Haley.


Difference is, I wasnt actually comparing Sam and Martin....I was saying that all it takes a couple idiots like those guys to create alot of drama. Even if Martin was mentally unstable, it doesnt in anyway excuse the harassment he got....and not just him, but apparently others.

Do you really think that if Sam was constantly harassed like that about his lifestyle that it wouldnt become a huge issue? Again...not saying that would be an issue here, but I seriously doubt he would let repeated abuse like that take place. Hazing is one thing.....but racial slurs and stuff like this have no place in any NFL locker room.


I probably wasn't clear with my intent. I certainly didnt mean to convey Martin somehow deserved that treatment based on his psychological issues. I was saying that Martin was vulnerable to that treatment effecting him in ways that I dont think Sam is and that both enabled the behaviors to continue and drove the aberrant response. Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry are ignorant scum no doubt. Turner maybe even worse.

I have a hard time envisioning a repeat of that situation, or even a similar one arising because I think Sam would respond to it far more appropriately, far earlier and it would never evolve like that did. For a situation like that to exist, idiots need someone willing to be a victim, I just dont think Sam comes across at all like that.


Fair enough.

However, I still think Sam opens a team up to issues and drama moreso than the average NFL player. I dont think he would be the one to actually CREATE the drama, but if he goes to an NFL lockerroom with even ONE jacka$$....could be issues....and more than just the typical issues.


If Sam shows enough potential and that jackass is not your star player who do you think should go?
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
If Sam can play, nothing else is going to matter by training camp.


This is all it comes down too.

I think whatever happens with the locker room dynamics is mostly up to the way Sam comports himself. He certainly seems like he's an articulate kid that will be able to see the nuances of a locker room and handle himself accordingly. If hes got guys small minded enough to give him a hard time despite his efforts to be a teammate then I think he will handle that appropriately also.

Martin was mentally unstable. I don't see a comp there any more than I do with Haley.


Difference is, I wasnt actually comparing Sam and Martin....I was saying that all it takes a couple idiots like those guys to create alot of drama. Even if Martin was mentally unstable, it doesnt in anyway excuse the harassment he got....and not just him, but apparently others.

Do you really think that if Sam was constantly harassed like that about his lifestyle that it wouldnt become a huge issue? Again...not saying that would be an issue here, but I seriously doubt he would let repeated abuse like that take place. Hazing is one thing.....but racial slurs and stuff like this have no place in any NFL locker room.


I probably wasn't clear with my intent. I certainly didnt mean to convey Martin somehow deserved that treatment based on his psychological issues. I was saying that Martin was vulnerable to that treatment effecting him in ways that I dont think Sam is and that both enabled the behaviors to continue and drove the aberrant response. Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry are ignorant scum no doubt. Turner maybe even worse.

I have a hard time envisioning a repeat of that situation, or even a similar one arising because I think Sam would respond to it far more appropriately, far earlier and it would never evolve like that did. For a situation like that to exist, idiots need someone willing to be a victim, I just dont think Sam comes across at all like that.


Fair enough.

However, I still think Sam opens a team up to issues and drama moreso than the average NFL player. I dont think he would be the one to actually CREATE the drama, but if he goes to an NFL lockerroom with even ONE jacka$$....could be issues....and more than just the typical issues.


If Sam shows enough potential and that jackass is not your star player who do you think should go?


This isnt about that, though.

Even if the "jackass" was our star player, Id consdier cutting him if he were that intolerant.

Im talking about the media circus and obvious distractions that could cause, much like the Jon Martin thing for the Dolphins....except I think it would be much worse given the circumstances.
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armsteeld


Joined: 02 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
If Sam can play, nothing else is going to matter by training camp.


This is all it comes down too.

I think whatever happens with the locker room dynamics is mostly up to the way Sam comports himself. He certainly seems like he's an articulate kid that will be able to see the nuances of a locker room and handle himself accordingly. If hes got guys small minded enough to give him a hard time despite his efforts to be a teammate then I think he will handle that appropriately also.

Martin was mentally unstable. I don't see a comp there any more than I do with Haley.


Difference is, I wasnt actually comparing Sam and Martin....I was saying that all it takes a couple idiots like those guys to create alot of drama. Even if Martin was mentally unstable, it doesnt in anyway excuse the harassment he got....and not just him, but apparently others.

Do you really think that if Sam was constantly harassed like that about his lifestyle that it wouldnt become a huge issue? Again...not saying that would be an issue here, but I seriously doubt he would let repeated abuse like that take place. Hazing is one thing.....but racial slurs and stuff like this have no place in any NFL locker room.


I probably wasn't clear with my intent. I certainly didnt mean to convey Martin somehow deserved that treatment based on his psychological issues. I was saying that Martin was vulnerable to that treatment effecting him in ways that I dont think Sam is and that both enabled the behaviors to continue and drove the aberrant response. Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry are ignorant scum no doubt. Turner maybe even worse.

I have a hard time envisioning a repeat of that situation, or even a similar one arising because I think Sam would respond to it far more appropriately, far earlier and it would never evolve like that did. For a situation like that to exist, idiots need someone willing to be a victim, I just dont think Sam comes across at all like that.


Fair enough.

However, I still think Sam opens a team up to issues and drama moreso than the average NFL player. I dont think he would be the one to actually CREATE the drama, but if he goes to an NFL lockerroom with even ONE jacka$$....could be issues....and more than just the typical issues.


If Sam shows enough potential and that jackass is not your star player who do you think should go?


This isnt about that, though.

Even if the "jackass" was our star player, Id consdier cutting him if he were that intolerant.

Im talking about the media circus and obvious distractions that could cause, much like the Jon Martin thing for the Dolphins....except I think it would be much worse given the circumstances.


Valid points but we aren't talking about a troublemaker, a locker room cancer, or an abuser of women/drugs/animals/etc...

He is a football player first. IF he is around in he 4th to 5th round, then after debating with the team leadership (owner, gm, coaches, players) and you feel he can help the Steelers, then give it a shot.

Our team has withstood Ben's rape accusations, Ward calling Ben lazy and not leadership material, coaches with porn on computers, Porter being shot, Adams being stabbed, and other media stiffy circus stuff.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

armsteeld wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
treat88 wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:
If Sam can play, nothing else is going to matter by training camp.


This is all it comes down too.

I think whatever happens with the locker room dynamics is mostly up to the way Sam comports himself. He certainly seems like he's an articulate kid that will be able to see the nuances of a locker room and handle himself accordingly. If hes got guys small minded enough to give him a hard time despite his efforts to be a teammate then I think he will handle that appropriately also.

Martin was mentally unstable. I don't see a comp there any more than I do with Haley.


Difference is, I wasnt actually comparing Sam and Martin....I was saying that all it takes a couple idiots like those guys to create alot of drama. Even if Martin was mentally unstable, it doesnt in anyway excuse the harassment he got....and not just him, but apparently others.

Do you really think that if Sam was constantly harassed like that about his lifestyle that it wouldnt become a huge issue? Again...not saying that would be an issue here, but I seriously doubt he would let repeated abuse like that take place. Hazing is one thing.....but racial slurs and stuff like this have no place in any NFL locker room.


I probably wasn't clear with my intent. I certainly didnt mean to convey Martin somehow deserved that treatment based on his psychological issues. I was saying that Martin was vulnerable to that treatment effecting him in ways that I dont think Sam is and that both enabled the behaviors to continue and drove the aberrant response. Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry are ignorant scum no doubt. Turner maybe even worse.

I have a hard time envisioning a repeat of that situation, or even a similar one arising because I think Sam would respond to it far more appropriately, far earlier and it would never evolve like that did. For a situation like that to exist, idiots need someone willing to be a victim, I just dont think Sam comes across at all like that.


Fair enough.

However, I still think Sam opens a team up to issues and drama moreso than the average NFL player. I dont think he would be the one to actually CREATE the drama, but if he goes to an NFL lockerroom with even ONE jacka$$....could be issues....and more than just the typical issues.


If Sam shows enough potential and that jackass is not your star player who do you think should go?


This isnt about that, though.

Even if the "jackass" was our star player, Id consdier cutting him if he were that intolerant.

Im talking about the media circus and obvious distractions that could cause, much like the Jon Martin thing for the Dolphins....except I think it would be much worse given the circumstances.


Valid points but we aren't talking about a troublemaker, a locker room cancer, or an abuser of women/drugs/animals/etc...

He is a football player first. IF he is around in he 4th to 5th round, then after debating with the team leadership (owner, gm, coaches, players) and you feel he can help the Steelers, then give it a shot.

Our team has withstood Ben's rape accusations, Ward calling Ben lazy and not leadership material, coaches with porn on computers, Porter being shot, Adams being stabbed, and other media stiffy circus stuff.


But again....the issue isnt with Sam HIMSELF, it has more to do players that might be intolerant of his lifestyle. And given the situation, it will get alot more media attention and league attention than the typical issues.

And yes, we SURVIVED those things....but the only one of those that really got a TON of attention were the allegations against Ben. The other ones were mainly just team issues with little media coverage.

Im not going to keep debating it because I dont want it to come across like I have anything against Sam. I just think his situation opens up a team to serious issues. If we drafted him, I would absolutely support him, and hope for the best.
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