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2014 Draft Talk Thread #2
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5241
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Jimmy Garapollo scares me. I don't think he elevates his stock into round 1, but I'm experiencing deja vu to 2011 and Christian Ponder right now.

He is a similar size and is making his name in the offseason right now. The main thing I remember about Ponder leading up the senior bowl (and hearing it again on JG) was his lack of arm strength and velocity on certain balls.

During Senior Bowl week and later the combine, people started to slowly excuse Ponder's lack of velocity/arm. At the combine some came away saying things like:

Quote:
Arm Strength: Doesn't own a Matthew Stafford-type howitzer, but has plenty of arm strength to make every NFL throw. Good zip on underneath routes; showcasing enough drive to push the ball through tight windows for the quick slant. Good timing and accuracy make up for a lack of a dominant arm for the deep-out. Effective deep-ball thrower; able to launch the ball 50-plus yards with velocity and trajectory.


Seeing a lot of the same with JG. Starting to excuse his lack of velocity/arm strength as his stock rises. You could see signs of it on some passes in the Senior Bowl. It's just interesting when you see other attributes you like, to start believing a deficiency is acceptable. Could spell trouble. In fact, I should probably look at Manziel through the same microscope on a second viewing.

This QB class continues to underwhelm. Brett Smith in the 4th or 5th it is.

+1
The media is inventing this QB draft class. Also, what does comparing stats or comparing freshman seasons accomplish? Why not go back to Jr. High? Or THAT would crazy? The only thing that matters is the skill of a prospect eligible for the draft at that moment
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 21755
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
How many people here would trade our first 2nd and 2nd next year to trade with Houston. I dont know if the values add up or anything, just hypothetically if houston phoned us and offered how many would take it?

In a heart beat i would do it for Clowney



I would for Bridgewater. It would be crazy to do it for Clowney.


Yikes. Mortgage the future on Bridgewater?



Yes. He's the best prospect since Luck an compared to most payers in the years before Luck.


I respectfully disagree as you know. I just don't see it greatness in him. Solid starter, never spectacular type. Game manager who will leave his team asking "is he good enough to get us to the Superbowl" every year. Alex Smith type comes to mind.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 21755
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TiberiusRising wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Jimmy Garapollo scares me. I don't think he elevates his stock into round 1, but I'm experiencing deja vu to 2011 and Christian Ponder right now.

He is a similar size and is making his name in the offseason right now. The main thing I remember about Ponder leading up the senior bowl (and hearing it again on JG) was his lack of arm strength and velocity on certain balls.

During Senior Bowl week and later the combine, people started to slowly excuse Ponder's lack of velocity/arm. At the combine some came away saying things like:

Quote:
Arm Strength: Doesn't own a Matthew Stafford-type howitzer, but has plenty of arm strength to make every NFL throw. Good zip on underneath routes; showcasing enough drive to push the ball through tight windows for the quick slant. Good timing and accuracy make up for a lack of a dominant arm for the deep-out. Effective deep-ball thrower; able to launch the ball 50-plus yards with velocity and trajectory.


Seeing a lot of the same with JG. Starting to excuse his lack of velocity/arm strength as his stock rises. You could see signs of it on some passes in the Senior Bowl. It's just interesting when you see other attributes you like, to start believing a deficiency is acceptable. Could spell trouble. In fact, I should probably look at Manziel through the same microscope on a second viewing.

This QB class continues to underwhelm. Brett Smith in the 4th or 5th it is.

Ponder was considering a borderline 1st rounder already(by "experts") before he got hurt. Then his stock dropped. Then he rose back up the boards after teams realized he was healthy.

And Garrapolo had way more production than Ponder ever did by far. Better feet, quicker release, reads defenses faster. He is better in every way already and that not even close for me. They were maybe close in Garrapolos sophmore season if you compare it to Ponders best season. Heck Garrapolo threw more TD's last season than Ponder did his entire college career.

Now for arm strength. People are confusing arm strength and deep ball accuracy. If you watch him throw his arm is strong, the ball comes out quick, zippy and on a line. Ponder's passes do not come out that way which is why he has a lot of trouble. Now can they improve Garrapolo's deep ball accuracy? I think so but even if not its not really a deal breaker. We are not the Raiders of old that are going to just bomb it out. In fact most teams do not anymore. How many times really does most OL's hold the pass rush for enough time to throw a 40+yard pass. Not a whole lot. Big pass plays these days come from YAC.


I guess I missed seeing any of that. Like his quick release, but I didn't see a lot of velocity on his ball. Fluttered at times on the outside the hashes.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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Location: CA-TX
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Jimmy Garapollo scares me. I don't think he elevates his stock into round 1, but I'm experiencing deja vu to 2011 and Christian Ponder right now.

He is a similar size and is making his name in the offseason right now. The main thing I remember about Ponder leading up the senior bowl (and hearing it again on JG) was his lack of arm strength and velocity on certain balls.

During Senior Bowl week and later the combine, people started to slowly excuse Ponder's lack of velocity/arm. At the combine some came away saying things like:

Quote:
Arm Strength: Doesn't own a Matthew Stafford-type howitzer, but has plenty of arm strength to make every NFL throw. Good zip on underneath routes; showcasing enough drive to push the ball through tight windows for the quick slant. Good timing and accuracy make up for a lack of a dominant arm for the deep-out. Effective deep-ball thrower; able to launch the ball 50-plus yards with velocity and trajectory.


Seeing a lot of the same with JG. Starting to excuse his lack of velocity/arm strength as his stock rises. You could see signs of it on some passes in the Senior Bowl. It's just interesting when you see other attributes you like, to start believing a deficiency is acceptable. Could spell trouble. In fact, I should probably look at Manziel through the same microscope on a second viewing.

This QB class continues to underwhelm. Brett Smith in the 4th or 5th it is.

+1
The media is inventing this QB draft class. Also, what does comparing stats or comparing freshman seasons accomplish? Why not go back to Jr. High? Or THAT would crazy? The only thing that matters is the skill of a prospect eligible for the draft at that moment


Media's not creating anything. Bridgewater, Manziel and Bortles have legit talent and upside. No such thing as a perfect prospect. Fans just like nitpicking everything about QB's until they're too scared to take a chance on one.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 4994
Location: Dublin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:
dmac505 wrote:
How many people here would trade our first 2nd and 2nd next year to trade with Houston. I dont know if the values add up or anything, just hypothetically if houston phoned us and offered how many would take it?

In a heart beat i would do it for Clowney



I would for Bridgewater. It would be crazy to do it for Clowney.


Yikes. Mortgage the future on Bridgewater?



Yes. He's the best prospect since Luck an compared to most payers in the years before Luck.


I respectfully disagree as you know. I just don't see it greatness in him. Solid starter, never spectacular type. Game manager who will leave his team asking "is he good enough to get us to the Superbowl" every year. Alex Smith type comes to mind.



Yea, but I've no idea what this is based on though. He excels at everything you want from a QB. His size is the only worry about him.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 31809
Location: Rochester, NY
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Jimmy Garapollo scares me. I don't think he elevates his stock into round 1, but I'm experiencing deja vu to 2011 and Christian Ponder right now.

He is a similar size and is making his name in the offseason right now. The main thing I remember about Ponder leading up the senior bowl (and hearing it again on JG) was his lack of arm strength and velocity on certain balls.

During Senior Bowl week and later the combine, people started to slowly excuse Ponder's lack of velocity/arm. At the combine some came away saying things like:

Quote:
Arm Strength: Doesn't own a Matthew Stafford-type howitzer, but has plenty of arm strength to make every NFL throw. Good zip on underneath routes; showcasing enough drive to push the ball through tight windows for the quick slant. Good timing and accuracy make up for a lack of a dominant arm for the deep-out. Effective deep-ball thrower; able to launch the ball 50-plus yards with velocity and trajectory.


Seeing a lot of the same with JG. Starting to excuse his lack of velocity/arm strength as his stock rises. You could see signs of it on some passes in the Senior Bowl. It's just interesting when you see other attributes you like, to start believing a deficiency is acceptable. Could spell trouble. In fact, I should probably look at Manziel through the same microscope on a second viewing.

This QB class continues to underwhelm. Brett Smith in the 4th or 5th it is.

+1
The media is inventing this QB draft class. Also, what does comparing stats or comparing freshman seasons accomplish? Why not go back to Jr. High? Or THAT would crazy? The only thing that matters is the skill of a prospect eligible for the draft at that moment


Media's not creating anything. Bridgewater, Manziel and Bortles have legit talent and upside. No such thing as a perfect prospect. Fans just like nitpicking everything about QB's until they're too scared to take a chance on one.


I agree with this. Even Carr, who I'm not big on, is worth a mid first imo. Personally, I'd sit him for a while but I wouldn't completely discount him because he isn't perfect. I like the other 3 a lot. I know it isn't great value to force a QB too early, but if Clowney is gone when we pick and one of the 3 QBs is staring us in the eye, I'd be perfectly alright with any of the 3.
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TiberiusRising


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 7859
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Jimmy Garapollo scares me. I don't think he elevates his stock into round 1, but I'm experiencing deja vu to 2011 and Christian Ponder right now.

He is a similar size and is making his name in the offseason right now. The main thing I remember about Ponder leading up the senior bowl (and hearing it again on JG) was his lack of arm strength and velocity on certain balls.

During Senior Bowl week and later the combine, people started to slowly excuse Ponder's lack of velocity/arm. At the combine some came away saying things like:

Quote:
Arm Strength: Doesn't own a Matthew Stafford-type howitzer, but has plenty of arm strength to make every NFL throw. Good zip on underneath routes; showcasing enough drive to push the ball through tight windows for the quick slant. Good timing and accuracy make up for a lack of a dominant arm for the deep-out. Effective deep-ball thrower; able to launch the ball 50-plus yards with velocity and trajectory.


Seeing a lot of the same with JG. Starting to excuse his lack of velocity/arm strength as his stock rises. You could see signs of it on some passes in the Senior Bowl. It's just interesting when you see other attributes you like, to start believing a deficiency is acceptable. Could spell trouble. In fact, I should probably look at Manziel through the same microscope on a second viewing.

This QB class continues to underwhelm. Brett Smith in the 4th or 5th it is.

+1
The media is inventing this QB draft class. Also, what does comparing stats or comparing freshman seasons accomplish? Why not go back to Jr. High? Or THAT would crazy? The only thing that matters is the skill of a prospect eligible for the draft at that moment

Nobody is arguing that just using the rest of the information as further proof of how good a guy is right now. You are just saying you dont like a guy because you think the media likes him too much. Many of us have been talking about some of these guys way before the media got involved. Tell us why Garropollo is not a better prospect than Manziel/Bortles or any of the prospects from last year or Ponder as BP was mentioning earlier that you +1 on. Maybe then we can go from there and see what you are talking about.
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OakleyCap


Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 528
Location: CA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Rob wrote:
Bottles looks like a 2nd-3rd round pick, but will probably be over drafted...


Other than Bridgewater there isn't any quarterback prospect in this years class that is a definite first round prospect, imo.
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Big Rob


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just want a stud at #5, i dont care who he is, but i want someone that will end up going to the Pro Bowl a few times...
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Raiiiiidersssss


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

honestly wouldn't mind Watkins. Dude looks like a total beast
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Bone_Collector


Joined: 23 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raiiiiidersssss wrote:
honestly wouldn't mind Watkins. Dude looks like a total beast


+1

Watkins would be a great addition.
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Raider X


Joined: 07 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watkins would solve our issue of a #1 receiver for years to come. His game is pretty solid. I hope he is available @ 5, in case other players on my big board aren't there.
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OakleyCap


Joined: 05 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't win championships building around skill position players. We desperately need to improve our pass rush and interior offensive line.

Plus I think Kelvin Benjamin has the potential to be a number one receiver at the top of the second round.
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Darkness


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakleyCap wrote:
You don't win championships building around skill position players. We desperately need to improve our pass rush and interior offensive line.

Plus I think Kelvin Benjamin has the potential to be a number one receiver at the top of the second round.


This. Too deep a WR class to spend a high pick on one in the 1st. We already drafted a CB last year when we needed major help along the defensive line. This FO needs to prioritize what positions are most important for winning games.
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Darkness


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone else feel like Mike Evans has more potential then Sammy Watkins anyway? I feel like he's going to be the bigger mismatch in the NFL.
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