Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Why JERRY KRAMER is not in the HOF?
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Green Bay Packers
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
justo


Joined: 05 Aug 2012
Posts: 12373
Location: Hood River, Oregon
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
justo wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
Thing is crazy. There is something to be said for being the very best no matter what it is you do. There was a long stretch there where Kramer was clearly the best in the world at what he did for a living. It's my case for Bettis. Clearly there were others that rate a little higher in terms of star power. But Bettis was the best power back in the game for a long damn time. Also, my case for Ray Guy and Steve Tasker. Hard not to respect THE BEST!
What's your take on Tony Boselli for the Hall?


I'm probably the wrong one to ask about Tony Boselli. I feel that man will stand by my lord and saviors side one day..... Laughing

In truth, it's the Terrell Davis story. Was it long enough?

I'll say this. I would much rather have a man in there that was special for a short time than a man that was very good for a long time.
That's my feel on the subject, too. I think Boselli should be in for being the top OT in a time of some great OTs. Boselli played longer than Gale Sayers and one more Pro Bowl in an expanded league. Not saying those are end all be all numbers, but if Sayers was able to get in, it's not crazy to make the leap for Boselli, IMO.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 13464
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to sneak an add on the last post there. But I agree 100%

LIS, there was a few years there where Boselli was both the best run blocker and pass blocker in the league at the same time. I highly doubt I will ever see that again. Many years later you can ask my pops why he does what he does and he will still tell you he is looking for the next Boselli..... Laughing
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gizmo2012


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 2630
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry Kramer got screwed - he had a great career on a great team and made the most famous block in NFL history. His credentials to be in the Hall of Fame should be unquestioned and undeniable.

My comment on Tony Bosselli is yes talent wise he was incredible but the dude played 47 games so no way he is Hall of Fame.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ManInCharge


Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 395
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When this comes up every few years, some of the voters that will at least discuss the process bring up a few points.
1) He wasn't voted in when he had the chance the first time, why should he get second and third chances? He's failed at the Senior Committee twice, I believe, as well.
2) Gale Gillingham effectively replaced Kramer on the team with basically no drop-off. They use that against Kramer to show it may have been the system or players around him.

I'm personally of the opinion that the HOF voters are a stodgy group that have their pet players and own agendas. You see some of the writers banging the drum for Player X year after year, while others are adamant that Player Y never get it in despite an upwelling up public support.
_________________
Chad Henne wrote:

"I know one thing about these guys, they're not going to stop quitting.''
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 13464
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gizmo2012 wrote:
Jerry Kramer got screwed - he had a great career on a great team and made the most famous block in NFL history. His credentials to be in the Hall of Fame should be unquestioned and undeniable.

My comment on Tony Bosselli is yes talent wise he was incredible but the dude played 47 games so no way he is Hall of Fame.


Hard to fight that POV on the thing. My only point is that IMO Bosselli at his peak was the most dominant player in league history not in the HOF. He also played a premium position as well. Man was Reggie White, next level type good. Ya know how you watched White back in the day(Suh has a little of this right now as well) and he could be doing the same things as everyone else but it just looked different? That was Bosselli in his prime! He looked like a man playing boys at the highest level of play. I have not even seen a lineman close to him in terms of functional strength at length. His movement at scale and feet were both high bar as well. Add in the VERY high IQ and his playing temperament and you truly had a once in a lifetime type of talent right there.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gizmo2012


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 2630
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
gizmo2012 wrote:
Jerry Kramer got screwed - he had a great career on a great team and made the most famous block in NFL history. His credentials to be in the Hall of Fame should be unquestioned and undeniable.

My comment on Tony Bosselli is yes talent wise he was incredible but the dude played 47 games so no way he is Hall of Fame.


Hard to fight that POV on the thing. My only point is that IMO Bosselli at his peak was the most dominant player in league history not in the HOF. He also played a premium position as well. Man was Reggie White, next level type good. Ya know how you watched White back in the day(Suh has a little of this right now as well) and he could be doing the same things as everyone else but it just looked different? That was Bosselli in his prime! He looked like a man playing boys at the highest level of play. I have not even seen a lineman close to him in terms of functional strength at length. His movement at scale and feet were both high bar as well. Add in the VERY high IQ and his playing temperament and you truly had a once in a lifetime type of talent right there.


I know its opinion but its hard to claim Boselli was better than Anthony Munoz or Forest Gregg or Ron Mix or Bruce Mathews - for example Mathews made like 14 pro bowls which is incredible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dunderhead


Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 2547
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Kramer snub used to bother me a whole bunch. Then the HOF elected Cris Carter and now the thing is a joke.

HOF always seemed to have 2 criteria: 1. You were the best of the best and a dominating player of your era or 2. You were a famous player and changed the game in a significant way.

Now of course, those are all subjective criteria. And the HOF was based not on the guys who were in, but the guys who weren't in. So that guys like Kramer actually made the HOF a significant personal achievement for a player. It was a best of the best and if you don't believe that, look at that Kramer guy who's on the outside looking in.

But Cris Carter? He's the new breed of what is happening and what is the wrong path of the NFL. Carter comes from a media hub with 2 newspapers. He had a fan club pushing for him. The vote was very glib and not thought out. It was appeasement of the idiot masses. Here was a Wr who was never the best of his generation, and for much of his career not even the best on his team. He was at best infamous (came back from drug use) but most don't even know the story. Offered nothing to the NFL game.

The only thing Carter has is the baseball resume. Hey, look, he has a bunch of yards. Oh wow, and a bunch of TDs too! He's a HOFer!

The fact that football isn't a stat game (this has been proved time and again) and the fact that stats aren't even a part of how they should pick HOF canidates was completely thrown out the window.

But every year people think all the slots for new members should be filled. The NFL and networks continue to look for revenue streams. I fully expect that in the very near future they will turn this honor into a complete and utter debacle. Fans will watch the selection process on TV. There will be internet voting where fans have a say. And they'll do mock little trials like Law and Order where they put careers on trial.

Better make it to the bathroom... I can taste a little throw-up already...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 13464
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gizmo2012 wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
gizmo2012 wrote:
Jerry Kramer got screwed - he had a great career on a great team and made the most famous block in NFL history. His credentials to be in the Hall of Fame should be unquestioned and undeniable.

My comment on Tony Bosselli is yes talent wise he was incredible but the dude played 47 games so no way he is Hall of Fame.


Hard to fight that POV on the thing. My only point is that IMO Bosselli at his peak was the most dominant player in league history not in the HOF. He also played a premium position as well. Man was Reggie White, next level type good. Ya know how you watched White back in the day(Suh has a little of this right now as well) and he could be doing the same things as everyone else but it just looked different? That was Bosselli in his prime! He looked like a man playing boys at the highest level of play. I have not even seen a lineman close to him in terms of functional strength at length. His movement at scale and feet were both high bar as well. Add in the VERY high IQ and his playing temperament and you truly had a once in a lifetime type of talent right there.


I know its opinion but its hard to claim Boselli was better than Anthony Munoz or Forest Gregg or Ron Mix or Bruce Mathews - for example Mathews made like 14 pro bowls which is incredible.


I think all of them had better careers. That's not to say any of them were better football players though IMO. As I have said many times AT HIS PEAK Boselli was the best I have seen. Munoz is second on my list with Walter Jones a distant third.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AmishMafia


Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 261
Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunderhead wrote:
The Kramer snub used to bother me a whole bunch. Then the HOF elected Cris Carter and now the thing is a joke.

HOF always seemed to have 2 criteria: 1. You were the best of the best and a dominating player of your era or 2. You were a famous player and changed the game in a significant way.

Now of course, those are all subjective criteria. And the HOF was based not on the guys who were in, but the guys who weren't in. So that guys like Kramer actually made the HOF a significant personal achievement for a player. It was a best of the best and if you don't believe that, look at that Kramer guy who's on the outside looking in.

But Cris Carter? He's the new breed of what is happening and what is the wrong path of the NFL. Carter comes from a media hub with 2 newspapers. He had a fan club pushing for him. The vote was very glib and not thought out. It was appeasement of the idiot masses. Here was a Wr who was never the best of his generation, and for much of his career not even the best on his team. He was at best infamous (came back from drug use) but most don't even know the story. Offered nothing to the NFL game.

The only thing Carter has is the baseball resume. Hey, look, he has a bunch of yards. Oh wow, and a bunch of TDs too! He's a HOFer!

The fact that football isn't a stat game (this has been proved time and again) and the fact that stats aren't even a part of how they should pick HOF canidates was completely thrown out the window.

But every year people think all the slots for new members should be filled. The NFL and networks continue to look for revenue streams. I fully expect that in the very near future they will turn this honor into a complete and utter debacle. Fans will watch the selection process on TV. There will be internet voting where fans have a say. And they'll do mock little trials like Law and Order where they put careers on trial.

Better make it to the bathroom... I can taste a little throw-up already...


Cris Carter steal your GF or something?

4th all time in receptions and receiving TDs. 9th all time in receiving yards. Got to give credit where credit is due. I know he is a butt head, but he was a great football player and he earned his trip to Canton.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dunderhead


Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 2547
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AmishMafia wrote:


Cris Carter steal your GF or something?

4th all time in receptions and receiving TDs. 9th all time in receiving yards. Got to give credit where credit is due. I know he is a butt head, but he was a great football player and he earned his trip to Canton.


Cris Carter was a very good football player. No doubt. Great? No freakin' way in hades was he great. And again, he's the other side with the baseball arguement.

He's fourth in receptions... Yeah, the 10 yard out... Great... He was a possession Wr. with a long career.

But tell me, what was his defining moment? You know, that great play he made at that pivitol time? Can't remember? THAT'S BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED!

Seriously, run the great plays of the 90's and the players that made them... Do you see Cris Carter there?

I hate Randy Moss, think the guys is a complete DB. But you know what? I can actually picture great plays he made. Cris Carter's induction speech was done with a montage of 10 yd outs and 10 yd curls in small time games. Absolutely pathetic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 13464
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't even know what to say to that really. Carter is a clear cut HOF player IMO. I don't want to come off like a jerk on here. But if one thinks that short game is easy at the pro level maybe they should go try it. Even more so in the endzone where Carter put the butter on his bread.

I agree that Carter could not run worth a lick. One could make a VERY strong case that Carter was the best possession WR to ever play the game though. I mean, we are not talking about Welker in the slot here. Carter often won over the best with his combo of smarts, guts, pride, dirty-boxing skills, and those truly special hands.

In many ways this plays into my arguement before. There is something to be said about being the very best at whatever it is you do(all walks of life).
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dunderhead


Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 2547
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not saying Carter sucks and I've got a pretty thick skin. Carter was a very good player. But that's all he was. TBH, I can't think of a single year he was the best at anything. Sure he was one of the best possession Wrs during his time, but the best at any given year? No.

I wouldn't say what he did was easy, I have no imagination that I could do what that man could do. But I could say the same about Donald Driver or Hines Ward.

And here's the flaw with the statistical argument crowd. Here's the points leaders for NFL players... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/scoring_career.htm

You have to go down 31 spots till you get a guy who didn't kick... Shouldn't all those guys be in the HOF? They're the leaders and put up more points than Jerry Rice.

OR, the HOF is about something different than stats. It has to be more of an eye test thing. What was that Vike team like before Moss joined?

11th ranked offense. 16th defense and 9-7.

After Moss?

#1 offense and one of the greatest as far as points scored and #6 defense.

Arguably, Carter's best season was '95 and the Vikes went 8-8.

After Moss comes? Carter's rec/game drop. Yet, these are the years that the Viking offense is screaming and running wild. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CartCr00.htm

Now be honest Palmy, if Carter's career were cut off before Moss arrives, is he HOF material? I don't even think this is tough, no.

The best illustration of what a farse Carter's induction is, is if one visualizes the passing offense of the 90's. Let's say it's a 1 min. clip... Could I create that one minute clip without Carter? Sure. Could I do it without Jerry Rice? Could I do it without Randy Moss? No, obviously... I really can't think of great highlights of Carter... 10 yard slant drive to the ball? And you're right, football has to have guys do this stuff, but lots of guys do it, it's not special. HOF is special. The HOF is judged by what can't get in, not by what can get in....

If Sterling Sharpe has no business in the HOF, and he has far more big game moments, what the heck is Carter doing in there?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
palmy50


Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 13464
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly the HOF is a career achievement award though. If that was not the case guys like Sharpe, Boselli, and Davis would be in there with room to spare. I'm not willing to say Carter isn't a HOF player because Sharpe never got in though. Not at all saying I have agreed with the voting over the years. Just sayin that Carter passes the test for me in every way including the "think/smell" test. The sec Carter's name comes up I instantly think HOF player. I don't need to even think about it. Reason why your post caught me off guard a bit.

Guess we can just agree to disagree on this one and that is fine. We all have our likes/dislikes when it comes to what we like to see on a football field.

LIS, was not trying to be disrespectful to you at all. Just firmly believe Carter was one hell of a football player. Was he at his peak as good as Sharpe? No he wasn't. But that's not to say he didn't have a much better career.

I agree it's the Hall OF Fame not the Hall OF Very Good. Just don't think that applies here for a host of reasons.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dunderhead


Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 2547
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

palmy50 wrote:
Clearly the HOF is a career achievement award though. If that was not the case guys like Sharpe, Boselli, and Davis would be in there with room to spare. I'm not willing to say Carter isn't a HOF player because Sharpe never got in though. Not at all saying I have agreed with the voting over the years. Just sayin that Carter passes the test for me in every way including the "think/smell" test. The sec Carter's name comes up I instantly think HOF player. I don't need to even think about it. Reason why your post caught me off guard a bit.

Guess we can just agree to disagree on this one and that is fine. We all have our likes/dislikes when it comes to what we like to see on a football field.

LIS, was not trying to be disrespectful to you at all. Just firmly believe Carter was one hell of a football player. Was he at his peak as good as Sharpe? No he wasn't. But that's not to say he didn't have a much better career.

I agree it's the Hall OF Fame not the Hall OF Very Good. Just don't think that applies here for a host of reasons.


Yeah, this is a tough one ad I know I'm probably out there on this.

But tying it back to the original idea of this thread again, I could previously deal with the Kramer snub because he was one of those players that defines the HOF. Him not being in there shows just ultimate the honor is. I mean I see Kevin Greene is up again and he's another that defines how special the HOF is.

But when they start allowing the Cris Carters in and the afore mentioned how special is it?

Here's something to also chew on for a bit... The 1990 Vikes were 6-10 with 4 HOFers on the team... '19 8-8... '92 11-5 and then in '93 9-7. Also something to chew on is that Randy Moss will surely get into the HOF. That will be 5 guys from the 90s, yet they produced nothing.

Through the 49er dynasty (1980-94) - 4 guys in the HOF.

I'm just saying, these guys didn't change the game, these guys weren't the best at any given year they were playing, their teams didn't do well... Yet they have these stats and it's solely on stats that they get in?

To me stats are deceptive. I can't think of any highlights of Carter's. I can't think of big games where Carter took over and slanted the field in his team's direction.

He was just clearly one of the best Wrs on his team and he had a long career. If that's what it takes then Kramer should be in, Greene should be in, Mecklenberg, Tim Brown, Sterling Sharpe, Steve Atwater, Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Drew Bledsoe, Bernie Kosar...

I can make a long list of very good guys who by the way had years that they were the best and also had longevity and they had bigger moments.

That's why the Kramer thing has finally gotten me a bit upset, because the HOF has no defense. They are selecting to drive revenue and have shunned only selecting the best of the best.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ManInCharge


Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 395
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunderhead wrote:
palmy50 wrote:
Clearly the HOF is a career achievement award though. If that was not the case guys like Sharpe, Boselli, and Davis would be in there with room to spare. I'm not willing to say Carter isn't a HOF player because Sharpe never got in though. Not at all saying I have agreed with the voting over the years. Just sayin that Carter passes the test for me in every way including the "think/smell" test. The sec Carter's name comes up I instantly think HOF player. I don't need to even think about it. Reason why your post caught me off guard a bit.

Guess we can just agree to disagree on this one and that is fine. We all have our likes/dislikes when it comes to what we like to see on a football field.

LIS, was not trying to be disrespectful to you at all. Just firmly believe Carter was one hell of a football player. Was he at his peak as good as Sharpe? No he wasn't. But that's not to say he didn't have a much better career.

I agree it's the Hall OF Fame not the Hall OF Very Good. Just don't think that applies here for a host of reasons.


Yeah, this is a tough one ad I know I'm probably out there on this.

But tying it back to the original idea of this thread again, I could previously deal with the Kramer snub because he was one of those players that defines the HOF. Him not being in there shows just ultimate the honor is. I mean I see Kevin Greene is up again and he's another that defines how special the HOF is.

But when they start allowing the Cris Carters in and the afore mentioned how special is it?

Here's something to also chew on for a bit... The 1990 Vikes were 6-10 with 4 HOFers on the team... '19 8-8... '92 11-5 and then in '93 9-7. Also something to chew on is that Randy Moss will surely get into the HOF. That will be 5 guys from the 90s, yet they produced nothing.

Through the 49er dynasty (1980-94) - 4 guys in the HOF.

I'm just saying, these guys didn't change the game, these guys weren't the best at any given year they were playing, their teams didn't do well... Yet they have these stats and it's solely on stats that they get in?

To me stats are deceptive. I can't think of any highlights of Carter's. I can't think of big games where Carter took over and slanted the field in his team's direction.

He was just clearly one of the best Wrs on his team and he had a long career. If that's what it takes then Kramer should be in, Greene should be in, Mecklenberg, Tim Brown, Sterling Sharpe, Steve Atwater, Ken Anderson, Boomer Esiason, Drew Bledsoe, Bernie Kosar...

I can make a long list of very good guys who by the way had years that they were the best and also had longevity and they had bigger moments.

That's why the Kramer thing has finally gotten me a bit upset, because the HOF has no defense. They are selecting to drive revenue and have shunned only selecting the best of the best.


Yeah, I've always thought it odd that the 90s Vikings, with no Super Bowl appearances, have more HOFers than the 90s Packers, who were one of the NFC powers for much of the decade. The Packers at most will have 2 players and 2 non-players (Wolf, Holmgren) in, but right now only Reggie is in. People seem to bang the drum about how important championships are, yet by the number of Vikings in, you'd have thought they were a near dynasty.
_________________
Chad Henne wrote:

"I know one thing about these guys, they're not going to stop quitting.''
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Green Bay Packers All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group