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Gary Kubiak hired as new OC
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcfields wrote:
This scheme makes him more valuable to us in the sense that Kubiak has always utilized more athletic lineman. A guard like Zack Martin who is technically-sound is more valuable in the west coast system because he can get to the second level more effectively than 340 lb. Gabe Jackson.

That's more along the lines of what I meant. Athletic. Linemen that can move their feet and get to the 2nd level (run blocking). I should have been more clear.

The ZBS is mostly going to be of the same importance for the OTs no matter if it's more reliant on a power focus or a more finesse/technical focus.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning Gabe Jackson. He's an interior OL. That's where the distinction between the two systems is at its grandest, with the interior blockers. Monroe is truly not going to offer us anymore value as a run blocker in this particular scheme. And if it relies too heavily on backside cut blocks during runs.. then he could be a liability... as that is why he struggled in his last season in Jacksonville... he struggled to adapt to that particular blocking focus.

The difference is that Castillo has been more of a power ZBS type guy utilizing big guys and walling off in the interior. So if the Ravens change this focus to smaller athletic options... that would effect who we look for at center and LG (if we move KO back out to RT). That said, we still have no idea how we'll be treating the interior of the OL. Dennison and Kubiak have the way they've always done things in that regard, but Castillo has been an even more noted OL guru over the course of his coaching career... and he's "Harbaugh's guy". So the scheme might look to incorporate Castillo's concepts into the Texans offense more than simply changing everything to how the Texans/Broncos did it.

We probably won't know exactly how the Ravens feel about this until we get closer to the draft and see which OL prospects they're looking more into at the combine and bringing in for visits.

Pursued interest in Gabe Jackson likely means we're looking to give Castillo's system another go... a guy like Xavier Su'a-Filo in the 2nd might be a better fit for Kubiak's run system.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So happy Kubiak got chosen and not Hostler! Kubiak brings a balanced offense, a PROVEN offense and a great play action game.

Honestly I think he was the best candidate of all of them and the guy I wanted most had we not gotten Shanahan. Honestly I'm just glad the Air Coryell is gone.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
So happy Kubiak got chosen and not Hostler! Kubiak brings a balanced offense, a PROVEN offense and a great play action game.

Honestly I think he was the best candidate of all of them and the guy I wanted most had we not gotten Shanahan. Honestly I'm just glad the Air Coryell is gone.


Well look who's back...
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
So happy Kubiak got chosen and not Hostler! Kubiak brings a balanced offense, a PROVEN offense and a great play action game.

Honestly I think he was the best candidate of all of them and the guy I wanted most had we not gotten Shanahan. Honestly I'm just glad the Air Coryell is gone.


Well look who's back...


Back in black. Cool
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spiritoftruth


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was this Ozzie going over John Harbaugh and saying, "no, we do need a different approach" when John was maybe ready to hire within the organization again?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiritoftruth wrote:
Was this Ozzie going over John Harbaugh and saying, "no, we do need a different approach" when John was maybe ready to hire within the organization again?


So Harbs interviewed thirty candidates, only to then decide to give it to the first guy he spoke to (presumably, given he works with Hostler every day), and then Ozzie said, 'nope' and forced him to hire Kubiak?

Doesn't sound too likely to me.

I read a couple of the articles that suggested this is what happened, and they offered pretty much no evidence to support their claims. Got to love that sort of 'reporting'. Furthermore, the idea that Ozzie would allow Harbs to issue a 'final four' list, in the knowledge that the guy he wanted wasn't on it, then force Harbs to take that guy? Doesn't sound like Ozzie at all.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiritoftruth wrote:
Was this Ozzie going over John Harbaugh and saying, "no, we do need a different approach" when John was maybe ready to hire within the organization again?

I HIGHLY doubt it. Seems much more like Harbaugh was going to go with Kyle Shanahan and only kept Hostler in the running so as to keep his feelings tame enough so that we didn't also lose our WRs coach.

... only we probably lost him now because we not only brought in Kubiak, but also Dennison as a proven playcaller. One has to think Hostler will see the lack of career mobility under this change of guard.

Under Shanahan, there was still a great chance that Hostler was a Shanahan HC hiring away from being the top dog on campus and rising to OC (and potentially HC at some later point). But this move firmly places him as just another wolf in the pack.

And it seems much more likely that Kubiak didn't actually consider this job until now because he was still in the process of looking for HC opportunities. Heck, I'd almost be willing to bet that Kubiak was our first choice as our new OC once this process started.

I mean, from the beginning it seemed like this process was overdrawn. We were interviewing collegiate positional coaches for the OC position, yet thought highly of Hostler? Shanahan was the first guy we interviewed, thought highly enough of him to interview him a 2nd time, yet it took us two weeks to figure that we regarded him that highly? The whole process seemed like we were biding time tbqh. Hoping that Kubiak would become a possibility.

It's just my speculation and reading in between the lines, but it's just quite coincidental that once the Browns finally decided on their HC... our OC process went from two "finalists" to a third finalist that would quickly win the job without the same two interviews from the other candidates. The process sure wrapped up quickly.

If Ozzie and Steve were so wrapped up on this hiring as some nonsensical media claims would speculate, then why wait until the final hour? They knew Hostler was a candidate from the start. Why not simply say from the beginning, "we don't want Hostler as a candidate."? Why would Ozzie call Hostler a "good coach" during the State of the Ravens address? He could've simply stayed quiet and behind the scenes pointed Harbaugh away from him as a candidate. And if Harbaugh is such a pawn as speculated, this process should have definitely been much more simplistic. Should have been as simple as Ozzie/Steve saying, "we want Norv Turner or Kyle Shanahan" and Harbaugh adding one of those guys to be the OC from the onset. But no, this "process" was much more methodical than that. It seemed almost purposeful in how it was drawn out... and once Kubiak became a candidate, the pieces for WHY it was drawn out seems to make complete sense.

But through this process, you've got to sort of feel bad for Kyle Shanahan because he was the one we jerked around the longest to be our backup plan. And he probably was content in believing he was our first option... and because he had his family in the area, his first choice probably was to keep them in the area and not have to up and move, if at all possible.

But it looks like he might get a chance to get back at us, since he's interviewing for the Browns OC spot now.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the shock jock radio guys in Baltimore and Mike Preston are pushing those rumors out there because they're paid to stir up the drama and sensationalize but it just doesn't really add up.

Even leaving everything else aside, neither Ozzie nor Bisciotti are bad enough executives to believe that forcing an OC on the head coach and creating essentially a shadow head coaching staff is a good idea - that would just be asking for a power struggle and a toxic working relationship among the staff. I'm sure Bisciotti and Ozzie had input into the decision and Harbaugh doesn't hide the fact that he uses both of them as sounding boards, but I think the truth is probably just pretty boring - the HC interviewed a ton of guys and ended up rolling with the guy and system he had the most confidence in.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:

Even leaving everything else aside, neither Ozzie nor Bisciotti are bad enough executives to believe that forcing an OC on the head coach and creating essentially a shadow head coaching staff is a good idea - that would just be asking for a power struggle and a toxic working relationship among the staff. I'm sure Bisciotti and Ozzie had input into the decision and Harbaugh doesn't hide the fact that he uses both of them as sounding boards, but I think the truth is probably just pretty boring - the HC interviewed a ton of guys and ended up rolling with the guy and system he had the most confidence in.


And based on Harbs' choice of words regarding Kubiak, that they didn't think it was something that could work until this last week, suggests to me that Harbs assumed Kubiak wasn't currently interested in coaching in 2014.

His health might have been something he was considering before making any decisions like that, and perhaps when the feelers were put out to him, Kubiak was less than encouraging. But after thinking things over, he decided that a job with less stress might be a good fit, and Harbs then heard that through Dennison.

Or that Kubiak had gone in the other direction, and was looking at HC jobs at the college level for a change of pace, and only decided to stick with the NFL in the last week or so.

Either of those seem far more likely scenarios to me than Ozzie sneaking around behind Harbs' back and then telling him that he had to hire Kubiak.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, I hate Harbaugh and even when I think more about this - it doesn't make sense that Harbaugh was "forced" to hire Kubiak.

If he was "forced" to hire this guy, he probably wouldn't have had dinner with the guy the night before at his home, nor would he have interviewed 30 potential candidates.

As much as I would love to say that Harbaugh wanted to continue to promote mediocre coaches to promote a mediocre philosophy within the organization, I just can't. The guy did a tremendous job throughout this entire process and I believe he 100% hired the right guy here.
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dcfields


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
The ZBS is mostly going to be of the same importance for the OTs no matter if it's more reliant on a power focus or a more finesse/technical focus.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning Gabe Jackson. He's an interior OL. That's where the distinction between the two systems is at its grandest, with the interior blockers. Monroe is truly not going to offer us anymore value as a run blocker in this particular scheme. And if it relies too heavily on backside cut blocks during runs.. then he could be a liability... as that is why he struggled in his last season in Jacksonville... he struggled to adapt to that particular blocking focus.

The difference is that Castillo has been more of a power ZBS type guy utilizing big guys and walling off in the interior. So if the Ravens change this focus to smaller athletic options... that would effect who we look for at center and LG (if we move KO back out to RT). That said, we still have no idea how we'll be treating the interior of the OL. Dennison and Kubiak have the way they've always done things in that regard, but Castillo has been an even more noted OL guru over the course of his coaching career... and he's "Harbaugh's guy". So the scheme might look to incorporate Castillo's concepts into the Texans offense more than simply changing everything to how the Texans/Broncos did it.

We probably won't know exactly how the Ravens feel about this until we get closer to the draft and see which OL prospects they're looking more into at the combine and bringing in for visits.

Pursued interest in Gabe Jackson likely means we're looking to give Castillo's system another go... a guy like Xavier Su'a-Filo in the 2nd might be a better fit for Kubiak's run system.


I think it’s safe to say that we agree to disagree on this one, old friend.

I think Monroe offers great value due to the fact that he has the agility and feet to effectively seal the corner on the stretch and the athleticism to get to the second level. Often, the only time tackles fail on the back side cut block is because they don’t have the quick feet to get in position to make the cut properly (typical of overweight tackles). I can’t comment on Monroe’s failures in Jacksonville because I simply don’t know. I was always led to believe that he was one of their better players. I believe that when you’re running outside zone blocking plays that require a tackle to block “far shoulder to far shoulder” on a 5-technique end, having a tackle with exceptional athleticism, agility and good footwork is definitely a bonus.

I brought up Gabe Jackson because I don’t see him as a guy that can get to the second level effectively. Most 340 pounders don’t but I could be completely wrong about Jackson. I agree with you that it is probably more important to have athletic, agile linemen from guard-to-guard in a ZBS than it is to have athletic tackles as the interior linemen are often required to make combination blocks and/or get to the second level immediately when uncovered. Most west coast teams of old like Denver, San Francisco and Houston had linemen that were smaller, athletic types. But Houston’s starting RG last year (if I’m not mistaken) was 343 lb. Brandon Brooks. So there goes that theory.

It’s hard to tell at this point if Osemele will stay at LG or move to RT. If he’s healthy, I think he’ll be effective either way.

I would personally give the “OL guru edge” to Kubiak and Dennison as they both worked directly with Alex Gibbs, the ZBS master. Castillo acquired the knowledge through degrees of separation. That said, I would think that Castillo will be subservient to their knowledge. I’m confident that even though Castillo is Harbaugh’s guy, Kubiak is not going to be working under Castillo (from the mental aspect of the ZBS). I would think that the offensive line techniques will be equally influenced by the three coaches (one third Kubiak, one third Dennison, one third Castillo) just as you stated. We shouldn’t underestimate Dennison’s value. He’s brilliant (Masters in Civil Engineering)!

Alex Gibbs used to say he’d always choose “feet over fat”. A reference to his preference for athletic linemen. Brian Billick used to say, “Man blocking, good players. Zone blocking, good coaches.” Whoever the Ravens decide to draft will have to be somewhat intelligent because they are going to get a lot of coaching and they’ll be thrown directly into the fire. Regardless of their build. We’ll have to collectively do our research and find out which draft-eligible linemen have played in a ZBS in college.
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dcfields


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
Neither Ozzie nor Bisciotti are bad enough executives to believe that forcing an OC on the head coach and creating essentially a shadow head coaching staff is a good idea - that would just be asking for a power struggle and a toxic working relationship among the staff. I'm sure Bisciotti and Ozzie had input into the decision and Harbaugh doesn't hide the fact that he uses both of them as sounding boards, but I think the truth is probably just pretty boring - the HC interviewed a ton of guys and ended up rolling with the guy and system he had the most confidence in.


Very well said.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcfields wrote:

I think it’s safe to say that we agree to disagree on this one, old friend.

I think Monroe offers great value due to the fact that he has the agility and feet to effectively seal the corner on the stretch and the athleticism to get to the second level. Often, the only time tackles fail on the back side cut block is because they don’t have the quick feet to get in position to make the cut properly (typical of overweight tackles). I can’t comment on Monroe’s failures in Jacksonville because I simply don’t know. I was always led to believe that he was one of their better players. I believe that when you’re running outside zone blocking plays that require a tackle to block “far shoulder to far shoulder” on a 5-technique end, having a tackle with exceptional athleticism, agility and good footwork is definitely a bonus.

I brought up Gabe Jackson because I don’t see him as a guy that can get to the second level effectively. Most 340 pounders don’t but I could be completely wrong about Jackson. I agree with you that it is probably more important to have athletic, agile linemen from guard-to-guard in a ZBS than it is to have athletic tackles as the interior linemen are often required to make combination blocks and/or get to the second level immediately when uncovered. Most west coast teams of old like Denver, San Francisco and Houston had linemen that were smaller, athletic types. But Houston’s starting RG last year (if I’m not mistaken) was 343 lb. Brandon Brooks. So there goes that theory.

It’s hard to tell at this point if Osemele will stay at LG or move to RT. If he’s healthy, I think he’ll be effective either way.

I would personally give the “OL guru edge” to Kubiak and Dennison as they both worked directly with Alex Gibbs, the ZBS master. Castillo acquired the knowledge through degrees of separation. That said, I would think that Castillo will be subservient to their knowledge. I’m confident that even though Castillo is Harbaugh’s guy, Kubiak is not going to be working under Castillo (from the mental aspect of the ZBS). I would think that the offensive line techniques will be equally influenced by the three coaches (one third Kubiak, one third Dennison, one third Castillo) just as you stated. We shouldn’t underestimate Dennison’s value. He’s brilliant (Masters in Civil Engineering)!

Alex Gibbs used to say he’d always choose “feet over fat”. A reference to his preference for athletic linemen. Brian Billick used to say, “Man blocking, good players. Zone blocking, good coaches.” Whoever the Ravens decide to draft will have to be somewhat intelligent because they are going to get a lot of coaching and they’ll be thrown directly into the fire. Regardless of their build. We’ll have to collectively do our research and find out which draft-eligible linemen have played in a ZBS in college.

1. Jacksonville ran a ZBS that was overly reliant on cutting the backside of the play. That type of ZBS is effective because if properly executed, you've got clearer cutback lanes for the RB to exploit. However, if you don't have an OT that excels in that technique, then those backside ends and DTs will stay on their feet and shut down the run. Monroe, as stated by Jax fans... struggled under that particular schematic change. Thus I was simply saying, if we used such a zone blocking scheme, he could struggle.

3. I think this is the disconnect. I am not distinguishing the difference between a zone blocking scheme and a power man blocking scheme. It's sort of the same thing every season with fans believing we're "changing" to a ZBS from a MBS. The Ravens have been running a ZBS since at least 2011 when Andy Moeller was promoted... and I'm pretty sure since before that. But since, I can't recall if Matsko ran a MBS through his entire tenure or if he was MBS initially and then transitioned in 09' or 10' to a ZBS. Point is:

2011- Moeller runs ZBS
2012- Moeller runs ZBS
2013- Castillo switches to power ZBS

Castillo's variation of the zone blocking scheme has called upon utilizing big interior OL to wall off in the interior and the backside OT to usually seal a backside crease. Some ZBS would have the LT and LG cutting their zone instead to create that cutback. Some variations might simply have the backside OG cut and the backside OT attempt to seal most of the time.

This is my point. Kubiak/Dennison have traditionally had extremely athletic interior blockers for their zone stretch system. However, I'm not familiar with how they play the backside of plays... how often they're cutting vs sealing... and throw in a guard like Brandon Brooks... were they adjusting their ZBS to more of power version, like what Castillo employs, in the first place? Because the weakness of the zone stretch has generally been attacking defenses playing downhill affecting power running plays.

This was Moeller's biggest criticism in his tenure. Rice could effectively run well, but in 3rd and short/goalline situations... we struggled to get any push against an aggressive/attacking defense.

Castillo's scheme doesn't traditionally have that weakness. So my point is, we are going to be running a ZBS for sure. But are we going to be more of a traditional finesse ZBS or a power ZBS? This is a question that we likely won't have answered until we see the type of personnel we're targeting come draft day. A guy like Zack Martin (who reminds of Marshall Yanda) could fit well in both schemes... but he's also now likely to be a top 25 selection. Sua-Filo from UCLA would probably be a better fit within that finesse scheme. While Gabe Jackson would fit moreso into a power scheme. We might just look to fill our OL with the best talent and adjust the system accordingly though... so it's very much influx. We might not know the direction of the OL until the games start rolling in the preseason.

3. Again, I just want to clarify that this is not about the difference between a finesse ZBS and a power MBS... it's about the difference between a finesse ZBS and a power ZBS. So the quotes from Brian Billick aren't relevant to this case is my main point.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiritoftruth wrote:
Was this Ozzie going over John Harbaugh and saying, "no, we do need a different approach" when John was maybe ready to hire within the organization again?


Don't listen to Preston or WNST.
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dcfields


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
1. Jacksonville ran a ZBS that was overly reliant on cutting the backside of the play. That type of ZBS is effective because if properly executed, you've got clearer cutback lanes for the RB to exploit. However, if you don't have an OT that excels in that technique, then those backside ends and DTs will stay on their feet and shut down the run.

2. I think this is the disconnect. I am not distinguishing the difference between a zone blocking scheme and a power man blocking scheme. It's sort of the same thing every season with fans believing we're "changing" to a ZBS from a MBS. The Ravens have been running a ZBS since at least 2011 when Andy Moeller was promoted... and I'm pretty sure since before that. But since, I can't recall if Matsko ran a MBS through his entire tenure or if he was MBS initially and then transitioned in 09' or 10' to a ZBS. Point is:

2011- Moeller runs ZBS
2012- Moeller runs ZBS
2013- Castillo switches to power ZBS

Castillo's variation of the zone blocking scheme has called upon utilizing big interior OL to wall off in the interior and the backside OT to usually seal a backside crease. Some ZBS would have the LT and LG cutting their zone instead to create that cutback. Some variations might simply have the backside OG cut and the backside OT attempt to seal most of the time.

This is my point. Kubiak/Dennison have traditionally had extremely athletic interior blockers for their zone stretch system. However, I'm not familiar with how they play the backside of plays... how often they're cutting vs sealing... and throw in a guard like Brandon Brooks... were they adjusting their ZBS to more of power version, like what Castillo employs, in the first place? Because the weakness of the zone stretch has generally been attacking defenses playing downhill affecting power running plays.

This was Moeller's biggest criticism in his tenure. Rice could effectively run well, but in 3rd and short/goalline situations... we struggled to get any push against an aggressive/attacking defense.

Castillo's scheme doesn't traditionally have that weakness. So my point is, we are going to be running a ZBS for sure. But are we going to be more of a traditional finesse ZBS or a power ZBS? This is a question that we likely won't have answered until we see the type of personnel we're targeting come draft day. A guy like Zack Martin (who reminds of Marshall Yanda) could fit well in both schemes... but he's also now likely to be a top 25 selection. Sua-Filo from UCLA would probably be a better fit within that finesse scheme. While Gabe Jackson would fit moreso into a power scheme. We might just look to fill our OL with the best talent and adjust the system accordingly though... so it's very much influx. We might not know the direction of the OL until the games start rolling in the preseason.

3. Again, I just want to clarify that this is not about the difference between a finesse ZBS and a power MBS... it's about the difference between a finesse ZBS and a power ZBS. So the quotes from Brian Billick aren't relevant to this case is my main point.


1) 100% with you here. I don't think Jacksonville had the coaching or all of the pieces on the O-line to effectively run the ZBS. I've become somewhat biased towards Monroe now. I love what that guy is about on and off the field. So IMHO, it was everybody else's fault. ;)

2) Every team in the league has incorporated some elements of the ZBS into their offense ever since they watched a 6th round pick run for 2,008 yards in Denver.

This was the point I was trying to make (unsuccessfully). No two coaches have been more successful running the ZBS than Mike Shanahan and Gary Kubiak.

I love the ZBS and I'm excited that it will be fully implemented now in Baltimore. My favorite thing about the system is the vertical rushing lanes it creates (Cut Ups/Cut Backs). Every defensive player is taught (since childhood) to force the play back inside. This system takes advantage of a defender's natural instincts. ... (Caught myself here writing for about a half hour on the topic. I cut it out to save your eyes).

I'll leave it at this. Oversimplified, I know. I could talk about the benefits of this system for hours. I've taught it in youth tackle football. (Entire detailed and tedious paragraph completely cut out here) ...this play (Stretch Left/Stretch Right) was 5 or 6 yards every time.

In a nutshell, Ray Rice is more talented than Clinton Portis ever was and you can argue that Bernard Pierce had talents similar to those or Arian Foster (already stated by Kubiak and Dennison). THIS IS WHAT OUR RUNNING GAME IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE!!! Portis and Foster in their primes. If you can't get excited about that, people, you better check for a pulse!

I love Zack Martin in this system. Intelligent, athletic and great technician. Furthermore, I'd like to see Martin at LG with Osemele at RT. I think Martin goes somewhere between our first and second round picks though (unfortunately).

3) I wish I had a dollar for every time Billick said, "Dynamic!".
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