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Ozzie's WR Comment
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the Vincent Jackson comparison for Kelvin Benjamin. It makes sense in a lot of ways. There others ones are pretty good too.

Like I've said before I'll be happy with any of the top guys this year and I think that includes Adams, Benjamin, Evans, Lee, Matthews, Robinson, and Watkins. Beckham, Coleman, Cooks, Landry, Moncrief, and Richardson are also intriguing and seemingly quality prospects too. It wouldn't be hard to justify most of them fitting the mold that Newsome was talking about in one way or another.

I'm not in favor of going with a tight end early. Not over a receiver at least. I don't like Ebron, Amaro, or Sefarian-Jenkins over any of the receivers I listed in that first seven or some of them in the second grouping. However, a lot depends on how they view Pitta's role going forward. There was some article or report recently that said that Pitta was used as a slot receiver for something like 75% of the snaps he played this season. If that's the role Pitta will have going forward (I'm assuming he's re-signed) then a "true" in-line TE is a need and maybe a receiver isn't. I don't think that will be the case though.
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dcfields


Joined: 28 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:

Sounds like our target is someone that's going to be
a) Big- WR or TE, listing TE tends to increase the frame size we'd be looking for.
b) Explosive- In the NFL the QB only has ~3s to get rid of the football, this player has to consistently make themselves a target for these opportunities.
c) Strong hands- Like you said, what's the point of having a guy who can get open but not make the play? This person needs to be strong at the catch point and be able to make plays in traffic.
d) Break tackles- This person isn't just getting to the sticks. He's running slants and seem routes and then breaking tackles for bigger gains.
e) Wide catch radius- Hands are a part of this, but he needs to be able to make plays on balls over the middle, make quick adjustments, and help to limit turnovers when targeting plays in between the hash marks.
f) Vertical ability- I think it's safe to assume a 3rd down option needs to be able to operate in the middle of the field- at least on occasion. A great vertical means a greater catch radius and a receiver that can make plays on balls that most defenders in coverage can't make a play on.


I'm with you, DB. BIG HANDS as well. DeAndre Hopkins and Keenan Allen's hands measured 10" at the Combine last year.

And to go along with FM's comment, short speed is a big factor as well. I'm a big proponent for the 10-yd. portion of the 40. How fast is someone getting off the line and getting into the holes in zone coverage (like on slant routes and drags). IMO, this is just as important as the 40 itself for RBs, WRs and CBs. You have to put an asterisk next to the guys that run a sub-1.5 in the first 10 yards. Of course that's not a "we have to have this guy" factor but it should be taken into consideration in addition to...well...skill.

And finally, body control. The ability to "box out" to coin a hoop phrase. I've seen a lot of 6'4'', 220 lbs. guys that played like they were 5'10'', 190 (the 2004 draft was full of them). I've also seen guys like Hakeem Nicks and Michael Irvin play about 3'' taller and 20 lbs. heavier because they knew how to "box out" effectively. You gotta be tough and fearless to turn your back on guys like Kam Chancellor or Polamalu.

If the Ravens could add a WR with these attributes, then Marlon Brown becomes more of threat to move chains as a #3 WR. Brown is a nice target for the Ravens. But neither he or Jacoby is a #2. And Torrey is a marginal #1. Bring in somebody that can push Torrey for touches and Torrey, Marlon and everybody else gets better (via competition).

That being said, a stud TE could open up a lot as well. I just wish Ebron (231 lbs.) weighed somewhere in the 250-260 range. Then I'd believe he could be on the field on 1st & 2nd down more often. 2nd rounders Sefarian-Jenkins and Amaro are bigger.

I like all of the receivers you mentioned, DB. I would throw Donte Moncrief in the mix too (late 2nd-early 4th rd). Reminds me a little of another Mississippi native, Eric Moulds.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of my overall rankings of the potential guys, here's how I'd likely have it at this point (excluding Watkins who is my #1)...

Evans
Matthews
Ebron
Benjamin
Amaro (if he declares)
Lee
Adams
ASJ
Robinson (admittedly I've seen very little of him so far so he defaults to the bottom).
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dcfields


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amaro declared. (Thumbs up)

I watched a little tape of Robinson. I like him. He's a playmaker.

There's something about Evans I can't "put my finger on" that makes me hesitant about him. One thing is for certain - He could easily put another 15 lbs. on his frame. I like him but I'm just not sold on him at #16/#17 right now.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BareYourTeeth wrote:
I'd put Davante Adams on that list of yours over Kelvin Benjamin, db. He reminds me of Michael Crabtree.

Edit: Nevermind, I didn't realize you were comparing them to those specific players. I thought you were just making a list of receivers from the draft who best ticked all those boxes.

Yeah, I could've been much more clear in what I was doing.

That list of NFL receivers was formed because those were some of the most effective big 3rd and 7+ receivers in the NFL in 2013. My premise supposes that Ozzie and Harbaugh were actually talking about a specific NFL receiver that inspires what they believe our offense could use. So using the information we gleaned from Ozzie along with some plausible assumptions of my own, I crafted a list of qualities. And then picked some of the most productive 3rd and >7 threats the NFL has to offer.

Beyond that, from that list, I tried to find a suitable comparison for each player... as you surmised. It wasn't a list of my favorite receivers in this class. Just trying to predict who might be the most likely receivers we could select, assuming my premise to be accurate.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcfields wrote:
Amaro declared. (Thumbs up)

I watched a little tape of Robinson. I like him. He's a playmaker.

There's something about Evans I can't "put my finger on" that makes me hesitant about him. One thing is for certain - He could easily put another 15 lbs. on his frame. I like him but I'm just not sold on him at #16/#17 right now.

Meh... I find it good only because the more talent in the draft, the more talent that should fall.

But I'm not a fan of Amaro. He's the size you look for in a prototypical TE option, but he's a pretty pathetic blocker when in-line. I don't see elite explosive ability nor elite deep speed. Which is nothing wrong with that, I suppose. But when the guy is mocked in the first round and in competition with special receivers... words like "good" and "quality" simply aren't good enough IMO. And if we're talking TE, I'd go:
1. Eric Ebron
2a. Troy Niklas
2b. Austin Sefarian Jenkins
4. CJ Fiedorowicz
5. Jace Amaro
6. Arthur Lynch
7. Marcel Jensen
8. Crockett Gilmore
(haven't watched the rest)
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dcfields


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
Meh... I find it good only because the more talent in the draft, the more talent that should fall.

But I'm not a fan of Amaro. He's the size you look for in a prototypical TE option, but he's a pretty pathetic blocker when in-line. I don't see elite explosive ability nor elite deep speed. Which is nothing wrong with that, I suppose. But when the guy is mocked in the first round and in competition with special receivers.


Yeah, Amaro doesn't give me the impression that he's exactly a "committed" blocker from what I've seen. The Ravens might be better off looking at a WR/OT on the first two days. Unless somebody really starts to turn it on from here until draft day.

Personally, I'd rather have rather have Benjamin than Ebron (And it's not a FSU thing). I know where everyone is projecting them to go but Benjamin's bigger, faster and more athletic. He presents a REAL matchup problem where Ebron... not so much. I big safety like Kam Chancellor covers Ebron. Does he cover Benjamin? Does a 6'0'' corner?
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dcfields


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pause! Ebron is actually two years younger than Benjamin. That, to me, is a factor too. I didn't know that.

I forgot mention that I agree with you about the "more talent" thing. The more, the merrier.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Amaro will be high on Baltimore's list unless Pitta isn't re-signed. Neither are real in-line guys and Amaro is pretty much a glorified slot receiver. In my opinion it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have two guys like that.

dcfields wrote:
Personally, I'd rather have rather have Benjamin than Ebron (And it's not a FSU thing). I know where everyone is projecting them to go but Benjamin's bigger, faster and more athletic. He presents a REAL matchup problem where Ebron... not so much. I big safety like Kam Chancellor covers Ebron. Does he cover Benjamin? Does a 6'0'' corner?


Uhh... what? Ebron is one of the biggest match-up problems as a tight end prospect in recent years. His athleticism is off the charts. Ebron is a fairly good blocker for his size too but that might be something he has trouble with in the NFL. Still, not being a match-up problem isn't anywhere near the case with him. Covering Ebron with a safety like Chancellor would result in multiple one-on-one toastings.

_________________________________

I went back and watched Ebron again this morning and I'm actually warming up to the prospect of taking him in the first round regardless of what happens with Pitta. In my opinion they could co-exist on the team with either one playing on the line or in the slot. Sefarian-Jenkins would fit as the in-line tight end but I'm not as high on him as most. He doesn't seem like an impact-maker to me and that's what a top two round pick at that position should be. Ebron was even flexed to the outside at North Carolina on multiple occasions and he shouldn't have any problem making plays. He would seem to fit the mold Newsome described too. I'd still prefer the likes of Watkins, Evans, Lee, Matthews, Robinson, Adams, and maybe Benjamin over him though.
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BareYourTeeth


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
I don't think Amaro will be high on Baltimore's list unless Pitta isn't re-signed. Neither are real in-line guys and Amaro is pretty much a glorified slot receiver. In my opinion it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have two guys like that.

dcfields wrote:
Personally, I'd rather have rather have Benjamin than Ebron (And it's not a FSU thing). I know where everyone is projecting them to go but Benjamin's bigger, faster and more athletic. He presents a REAL matchup problem where Ebron... not so much. I big safety like Kam Chancellor covers Ebron. Does he cover Benjamin? Does a 6'0'' corner?


Uhh... what? Ebron is one of the biggest match-up problems as a tight end prospect in recent years. His athleticism is off the charts. Ebron is a fairly good blocker for his size too but that might be something he has trouble with in the NFL. Still, not being a match-up problem isn't anywhere near the case with him. Covering Ebron with a safety like Chancellor would result in multiple one-on-one toastings.

_________________________________

I went back and watched Ebron again this morning and I'm actually warming up to the prospect of taking him in the first round regardless of what happens with Pitta. In my opinion they could co-exist on the team with either one playing on the line or in the slot. Sefarian-Jenkins would fit as the in-line tight end but I'm not as high on him as most. He doesn't seem like an impact-maker to me and that's what a top two round pick at that position should be. Ebron was even flexed to the outside at North Carolina on multiple occasions and he shouldn't have any problem making plays. He would seem to fit the mold Newsome described too. I'd still prefer the likes of Watkins, Evans, Lee, Matthews, Robinson, Adams, and maybe Benjamin over him though.


I agree. love Ebron and I'm torn between him and CK71 in the first round. You said you'd prefer any of those WRs over him... are you not in favor of taking two receivers with the first two picks and abandoning the OL or do you think no one will be left in the second?

I'm sure you're thinking the former because there will definitely still be a couple of those quality WRs left in the second if Ebron is taken in the first.

My hope is someone wants to trade up five or so spots and gives up a third or fourth round pick. Hopefully, Ebron will still be there, then get an Adams or Matthews in the second, and get James Hurst in the third or fourth.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm of the mindset that only one of them is a high round need. Pitta is a lock to be re-signed in my mind and if a tight end is taken in the first couple of rounds then wide receiver probably won't be addressed. Pitta and ____ would probably be on the field most of the time with one of them in the slot and one of them in the traditional alignment leaving Smith and Brown/whoever on the outside. If a wide receiver is taken in the first couple of rounds then tight end is still a need but I think it makes more sense to get one in the mid rounds. Pitta is a bona fide starter at the position. All the team really needs is a capable second option and hopefully one that's at least a solid blocker. That's the main reason I'm mostly against going with a tight end early in the draft. It might even be able to filled fairly cheaply in free agency.
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bmorecareful


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BareYourTeeth wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
I don't think Amaro will be high on Baltimore's list unless Pitta isn't re-signed. Neither are real in-line guys and Amaro is pretty much a glorified slot receiver. In my opinion it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have two guys like that.

dcfields wrote:
Personally, I'd rather have rather have Benjamin than Ebron (And it's not a FSU thing). I know where everyone is projecting them to go but Benjamin's bigger, faster and more athletic. He presents a REAL matchup problem where Ebron... not so much. I big safety like Kam Chancellor covers Ebron. Does he cover Benjamin? Does a 6'0'' corner?


Uhh... what? Ebron is one of the biggest match-up problems as a tight end prospect in recent years. His athleticism is off the charts. Ebron is a fairly good blocker for his size too but that might be something he has trouble with in the NFL. Still, not being a match-up problem isn't anywhere near the case with him. Covering Ebron with a safety like Chancellor would result in multiple one-on-one toastings.

_________________________________

I went back and watched Ebron again this morning and I'm actually warming up to the prospect of taking him in the first round regardless of what happens with Pitta. In my opinion they could co-exist on the team with either one playing on the line or in the slot. Sefarian-Jenkins would fit as the in-line tight end but I'm not as high on him as most. He doesn't seem like an impact-maker to me and that's what a top two round pick at that position should be. Ebron was even flexed to the outside at North Carolina on multiple occasions and he shouldn't have any problem making plays. He would seem to fit the mold Newsome described too. I'd still prefer the likes of Watkins, Evans, Lee, Matthews, Robinson, Adams, and maybe Benjamin over him though.


I agree. love Ebron and I'm torn between him and CK71 in the first round. You said you'd prefer any of those WRs over him... are you not in favor of taking two receivers with the first two picks and abandoning the OL or do you think no one will be left in the second?

I'm sure you're thinking the former because there will definitely still be a couple of those quality WRs left in the second if Ebron is taken in the first.

My hope is someone wants to trade up five or so spots and gives up a third or fourth round pick. Hopefully, Ebron will still be there, then get an Adams or Matthews in the second, and get James Hurst in the third or fourth.


I'm a huge Marquis Lee fan but the more I watch of them the more I like Mike Evans and Kelvin Benjamin. Mike Evans to me seems like he would be my favorite pick though. Watching the game tape he is a lot faster than I thought. He gains separation a lot better than i thought not mention he complements our other receivers very well. I like Benjamin too but I see him more as a late first early second round prospect due to his age and lack of game speed. He seems to compete for the ball the way you like a big physical guy but lacks the ability to gain separation consistently and will be 23 and a half when the season starts. Only thing about Benjamin is that he doesn't really compliment our other guys as well and being as though accuracy isn't one of Flacco's strongest attributes and he likes to see a player come open rather than throw it up, I think Benjamin would take a little longer to make an impact because he will have to earn that trust. I also like Marlon Brown and feel he could become a very good 3rd receiver if we land a guy who can compete with Torrey Smith for coverage from the opposite teams number 1 corner. To be honest I think we should go WR in the first TE in the second and draft a Guard with our third.
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