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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree that it took Revis time to really acclimate. I'm pretty sure in his rookie season he was already locking guys down. It just wasn't until Rex got there and started talking Revis up that Revis island was born and his play got as much hype IMO. I could be wrong, but living in NY at the time and having watched some of the games and heard about the rest, that Revis was shutting WRs down even at that point. But it wasn't until two years later, when Rex arrived, that he got the media attention for it.

In terms of the corner needing to play at a top 10 level to move Webb, I still disagree with that notion.

I think as long as the corner proves that in camp he's outplaying the "stop-gap FS" while playing at a high level that he should be given the opportunity to see the field as a starter.

As a backup corner, it's very unlikely that this rookie would ever prove to be a "top 10 cover corner" and thus would sit on the bench for two seasons until one of Jimmy Smith or Lardarius Webb have moved on to another team.

I think the best players should play. And it's not like Webb should have forgotten how to play safety by now. He came to Baltimore idolizing Ed Reed and patenting his game after him at safety. I'm sure that's not something he's soon forgotten. Honestly, I think we could shift Webb to safety right now and he'd still play the position at a high level. He knows the the secondary like the back of his hand with his experience, so he'll know where everyone is supposed to be on a given play. And he knows how to play safety. The only adjustment would be playing safety at the NFL level... but his role would be similar to his role playing cover 2 or cover 3 looks, and he excels as a zone corner... so I see no reason he wouldn't excel as a FS.

It probably seems disloyal to move Webb to "FS" while letting a rookie "take" his position. But I'd bet Webb wouldn't see it that way. He'd more easily be able to lead the secondary and most rookies usually struggle with giving up plays behind them... which is where Webb comes in.

If this is any other CB, like a Bradley Roby, sure... I say, let him develop in a smaller role... heck maybe even transition him to FS (which is another thought I had a few weeks ago, with his size, athleticism, and physicality... thought he could fit the bill)... but Darquez Dennard has been compared by some to Revis coming from Pitt. The coaches get to see the guy in training camp play and compete.

I'm simply saying that if he is playing at a high level... they would be fools to not try and get him onto the field as much as possible. And if he's much better than your FS stop-gap, why not explore moving Webb there to sure up two spots? Seems like a win-win to me.
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coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
I disagree that it took Revis time to really acclimate. I'm pretty sure in his rookie season he was already locking guys down. It just wasn't until Rex got there and started talking Revis up that Revis island was born and his play got as much hype IMO. I could be wrong, but living in NY at the time and having watched some of the games and heard about the rest, that Revis was shutting WRs down even at that point. But it wasn't until two years later, when Rex arrived, that he got the media attention for it.

In terms of the corner needing to play at a top 10 level to move Webb, I still disagree with that notion.

I think as long as the corner proves that in camp he's outplaying the "stop-gap FS" while playing at a high level that he should be given the opportunity to see the field as a starter.


I'm maintaining my stance on Revis. He wasn't terrible in his first couple of years but he wasn't great either.

And I would still bet against a rookie corner coming in and playing at a high level. It doesn't have to be top 10 quality of play (nor did I ever say it had to be) for a guy to replace Webb so he can move back to FS, but I think it's far more likely that a veteran safety would come in and play better right away than almost any rookie corner.

Quote:
As a backup corner, it's very unlikely that this rookie would ever prove to be a "top 10 cover corner" and thus would sit on the bench for two seasons until one of Jimmy Smith or Lardarius Webb have moved on to another team.

I think the best players should play. And it's not like Webb should have forgotten how to play safety by now. He came to Baltimore idolizing Ed Reed and patenting his game after him at safety. I'm sure that's not something he's soon forgotten. Honestly, I think we could shift Webb to safety right now and he'd still play the position at a high level. He knows the the secondary like the back of his hand with his experience, so he'll know where everyone is supposed to be on a given play. And he knows how to play safety. The only adjustment would be playing safety at the NFL level... but his role would be similar to his role playing cover 2 or cover 3 looks, and he excels as a zone corner... so I see no reason he wouldn't excel as a FS.

It probably seems disloyal to move Webb to "FS" while letting a rookie "take" his position. But I'd bet Webb wouldn't see it that way. He'd more easily be able to lead the secondary and most rookies usually struggle with giving up plays behind them... which is where Webb comes in.


Backup is getting a bad connotation here, especially if we're talking about the 3rd CB like we are right now. Those guys play a ton these days. If he's playing well or even exceedingly so it would definitely be noticeable.

If Webb is moving to FS then it's something that you commit a whole offseason to. I wholeheartedly disagree that that it wouldn't take much for him to transition there and play at a high level. Especially the role he'd have as a FS. If it was something like how Vaccaro is used in New Orleans as you mentioned before or even Tyvon Branch in Oakland it might be a bit different but that's not how I'd envision the FS being used with Elam at SS. Elam would be the guy up near the LOS and moving all over, and if he's put back in that position I think he'd making far more plays and is far more suited for that instead of what he's doing now. The FS would be playing the back-end more often than not and that kind of role is pretty much the opposite of what Webb has been doing for the past few years as a man-cover corner. It would take some time.

Quote:
If this is any other CB, like a Bradley Roby, sure... I say, let him develop in a smaller role... heck maybe even transition him to FS (which is another thought I had a few weeks ago, with his size, athleticism, and physicality... thought he could fit the bill)... but Darquez Dennard has been compared by some to Revis coming from Pitt. The coaches get to see the guy in training camp play and compete.

I'm simply saying that if he is playing at a high level... they would be fools to not try and get him onto the field as much as possible. And if he's much better than your FS stop-gap, why not explore moving Webb there to sure up two spots? Seems like a win-win to me.


Dennard isn't Revis. As big of a Michigan State homer as I am I can admit that. Dennard isn't as big or fast as Revis when he came out. The aggressiveness and attitude are there but his physical tools are on a lower level. I'd guess Dennard is somewhere in the area of 5-10 195 and will run a high 4.4 to low 4.5 forty. Pretty close to what Morris Claiborne's numbers actually, but probably not rated as highly since Claiborne played in the SEC and Dennard in the "weak" Big 10. Dennard probably isn't quite as explosive an athlete either, but I wouldn't say it's a weakness of his. I mean I'm still pushing for him to be a Raven regardless of what happens at the combine/postseason activities or what it means for the other players on the team. That's where my homerism shows through. Cool

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on this topic once again.
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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:

In terms of the corner needing to play at a top 10 level to move Webb, I still disagree with that notion.


We'll agree to disagree then. I'm not willing to move a top 10 CB in Webb to FS, a position we're unsure of how he'll truly play at, in favor of a rookie unless that rookie has shown he can replicate Webb's play or at least very close to it. If we have a bad FS, moving Webb to FS and then a rookie CB who is playing at a lesser level than Webb just spins our tires. We may be getting a boost at FS but lesser play at CB. IMO, if the FS struggles, then you find another safety who can take over and move Elam back to FS if we need to.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@c0 I was sort of quoting both you and Flaccomania in that post. Which is why some things were referenced to your response and some to his. Both your opinions were close enough together that I didn't think I needed to quote you both. But I suppose I should have mentioned that prior, to quell any confusion.

I understand that the nickel isn't exactly a "backup" but I still don't see how getting your best 4 DBs out there on say, 33% more downs (made up number) is a bad thing. Webb playing base safety shouldn't be that difficult a role. It would essentially utilize him in the same role Reed was used in. Nuclear deterrent for PA pass until you're sure its a run, then attack. Elam would play closer to the line in the rover role.

By mentioning Vaccaro I meant just as a dual safety/nickel corner guy. Not as a literal comparison of roles. I was just mentioning him to basically say, "this isn't the first time we've seen this type of creativity used on defense". I also disagree that "any" veteran will be superior to Dennard.

The best cheap FS option we could afford this offseason was Michael Huff and he busted incredibly so. Obviously not every investment will follow that trend, but my scenario states if Dennard proves to be the 3rd/4th best defensive back by a solid margin, moving Webb to FS should be explored.

And for example, we have Dennard this season, but no Ihedigbo... Huff gets beat like a drum run or pass against Denver game one. Would it not make sense to have experimented with Webb playing some FS in training camp and thus play around with him at FS to get Dennard on the field over Huff? I think it would. But yes, we'll probably have to agree to disagree... though in the grand scheme of things, I know the likelihood of Harbaugh utilizing a rookie early, let alone in such a manner would likely never happen. He seems to be pretty against starting rookies in the first place. Forcing them to have to earn their jobs. So shifting Webb for a rookie, is probably like -100 on a scale of likely possibility.

In terms of speed. Coming out of Pitt, one of the knocks on Revis was actually his speed. Most thought he would run a 4.5 forty because he didn't look 'fast' on tape. Then when he ran his 4.38 forty at the combine, many analysts picked it apart as track speed vs tape speed. I vividly remember most analysts thinking he was at best a high 4.4 speed guy. That his time didn't fit the tape. I'm only mentioning this in this instance because it's always possible for an athlete to surprise everyone on occasion... and Revis, the guy some have compared to Revis, the prospect, could also surprise.

Now if he doesn't put forth that sub 4.4 forty, then that increases his chances of falling to the Ravens. So I'm down either way, I was just mentioning the Revis story as a slight aside as to expecting the unexpected.
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