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Week 13: Jacksonville Jaguars @ Cleveland Browns
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vino wrote:
I didn't say that's the reason he's NFL ready, it's just an advantage he has.

Yeah and I'm just saying it isn't an advantage.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
Vino wrote:
DjBuddaH wrote:
I think the coaching job Gus is doing is great. We were the worst team in the NFL for the first 8 weeks of the season....now we can say that even though we lack talent on both sides, we will be competitive. I'm a firm believer in building every single position up equally.

If Henne is getting wins with this squad, it could be even better down the road with a younger QB. That being said, I also like to sit younger QBs a year or so to develop them. The only exception would be if you were drafting a Teddy Bridgewater who is termed "NFL ready". Outside of that let them sit behind a veteran. Henne isn't a great veteran, but a veteran none-the-less.
I think Carr is just as NFL ready as Bridgewater if not a little more so since he's been growing up around the culture since he was 10 year old.

I don't think that has any relevance.
Correct. Archie and Peyton was a far better environment for Eli than anything Carr has had and he wasn't even close to NFL ready to start his career, whereas that same year Ben came from no pedigree and a small school and was NFL ready.


Yeah, i really don't think that makes Carr 'NFL Ready'.

I think the system he's coming out of, some of the bizarre footwork and throwing off the back foot mechanics, the inconsistent ball placement, and the fact that if you parachute Carr in behind a terrible O-Line he may end up just like his older bro, are all things that could potentially make him very NOT 'NFL ready'.

If we're not getting Teddy, i honestly think bringing Henne back would be a good idea at this point, based on who else we'd be able to target in the draft.
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.Buzz


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tugboat wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
Vino wrote:
DjBuddaH wrote:
I think the coaching job Gus is doing is great. We were the worst team in the NFL for the first 8 weeks of the season....now we can say that even though we lack talent on both sides, we will be competitive. I'm a firm believer in building every single position up equally.

If Henne is getting wins with this squad, it could be even better down the road with a younger QB. That being said, I also like to sit younger QBs a year or so to develop them. The only exception would be if you were drafting a Teddy Bridgewater who is termed "NFL ready". Outside of that let them sit behind a veteran. Henne isn't a great veteran, but a veteran none-the-less.
I think Carr is just as NFL ready as Bridgewater if not a little more so since he's been growing up around the culture since he was 10 year old.

I don't think that has any relevance.
Correct. Archie and Peyton was a far better environment for Eli than anything Carr has had and he wasn't even close to NFL ready to start his career, whereas that same year Ben came from no pedigree and a small school and was NFL ready.


Yeah, i really don't think that makes Carr 'NFL Ready'.

I think the system he's coming out of, some of the bizarre footwork and throwing off the back foot mechanics, the inconsistent ball placement, and the fact that if you parachute Carr in behind a terrible O-Line he may end up just like his older bro, are all things that could potentially make him very NOT 'NFL ready'.

If we're not getting Teddy, i honestly think bringing Henne back would be a good idea at this point, based on who else we'd be able to target in the draft.


Most young QB's coming out that get thrown into a situation that David Carr had with his offensive line aren't going to do too well. We will have Joeckel, Pasztor, and hopefully a solid FA or two to go along with a couple picks. Uche is decent as well but we need to get some better interior guys beside him.

Carr has his problems, but most qb's coming out are going to have some things that they need to seriously work on. That's why you have to depend on some good coaching, I really think we have that on this team. Whether the good coaching can develop a young QB is up in the air though. I'm feeling pretty confident about what we do in FA and the draft though with Caldwell, even if he's only had one offseason.
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Vino


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tugboat wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
Vino wrote:
DjBuddaH wrote:
I think the coaching job Gus is doing is great. We were the worst team in the NFL for the first 8 weeks of the season....now we can say that even though we lack talent on both sides, we will be competitive. I'm a firm believer in building every single position up equally.

If Henne is getting wins with this squad, it could be even better down the road with a younger QB. That being said, I also like to sit younger QBs a year or so to develop them. The only exception would be if you were drafting a Teddy Bridgewater who is termed "NFL ready". Outside of that let them sit behind a veteran. Henne isn't a great veteran, but a veteran none-the-less.
I think Carr is just as NFL ready as Bridgewater if not a little more so since he's been growing up around the culture since he was 10 year old.

I don't think that has any relevance.
Correct. Archie and Peyton was a far better environment for Eli than anything Carr has had and he wasn't even close to NFL ready to start his career, whereas that same year Ben came from no pedigree and a small school and was NFL ready.


Yeah, i really don't think that makes Carr 'NFL Ready'.

I think the system he's coming out of, some of the bizarre footwork and throwing off the back foot mechanics, the inconsistent ball placement, and the fact that if you parachute Carr in behind a terrible O-Line he may end up just like his older bro, are all things that could potentially make him very NOT 'NFL ready'.

If we're not getting Teddy, i honestly think bringing Henne back would be a good idea at this point, based on who else we'd be able to target in the draft.
Carr played in a prostyle offense his first two seasons and shifted to a spread when the new coach was brought in. And I have no idea where you're getting inconsistent ball placement and bad footwork from, maybe you haven't watched him play this year. But that's made up stuff as of 2013. He gets the ball out super quick, so if his O-Line sucked he'd be able to make the passes regardless and he's not like his brother as far as being "scared" in the pocket goes.

And again, I didn't say that makes him NFL ready I said it's an advantage, which it is.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.Buzz wrote:
Tugboat wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
Vino wrote:
DjBuddaH wrote:
I think the coaching job Gus is doing is great. We were the worst team in the NFL for the first 8 weeks of the season....now we can say that even though we lack talent on both sides, we will be competitive. I'm a firm believer in building every single position up equally.

If Henne is getting wins with this squad, it could be even better down the road with a younger QB. That being said, I also like to sit younger QBs a year or so to develop them. The only exception would be if you were drafting a Teddy Bridgewater who is termed "NFL ready". Outside of that let them sit behind a veteran. Henne isn't a great veteran, but a veteran none-the-less.
I think Carr is just as NFL ready as Bridgewater if not a little more so since he's been growing up around the culture since he was 10 year old.

I don't think that has any relevance.
Correct. Archie and Peyton was a far better environment for Eli than anything Carr has had and he wasn't even close to NFL ready to start his career, whereas that same year Ben came from no pedigree and a small school and was NFL ready.


Yeah, i really don't think that makes Carr 'NFL Ready'.

I think the system he's coming out of, some of the bizarre footwork and throwing off the back foot mechanics, the inconsistent ball placement, and the fact that if you parachute Carr in behind a terrible O-Line he may end up just like his older bro, are all things that could potentially make him very NOT 'NFL ready'.

If we're not getting Teddy, i honestly think bringing Henne back would be a good idea at this point, based on who else we'd be able to target in the draft.


Most young QB's coming out that get thrown into a situation that David Carr had with his offensive line aren't going to do too well. We will have Joeckel, Pasztor, and hopefully a solid FA or two to go along with a couple picks. Uche is decent as well but we need to get some better interior guys beside him.

Carr has his problems, but most qb's coming out are going to have some things that they need to seriously work on. That's why you have to depend on some good coaching, I really think we have that on this team. Whether the good coaching can develop a young QB is up in the air though. I'm feeling pretty confident about what we do in FA and the draft though with Caldwell, even if he's only had one offseason.


I'm not saying there aren't things to like about Carr as a prospect, there definitely are nice qualities there and tons of upside. But i have a hard time seeing an 'NFL Ready' day1 starter there. He has issues, like a lot of QBs coming out, and it's going to need to be handled carefully in the NFL. There's nothing inherently wrong with having to sit a year and learn...but if we're talking top-5 picks like Carr would likely be, that's not a 'sitting' scenario. Maybe if Henne were to return, they'd be able to sell it...but doubtful.

Vino wrote:
Tugboat wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
Vino wrote:
DjBuddaH wrote:
I think the coaching job Gus is doing is great. We were the worst team in the NFL for the first 8 weeks of the season....now we can say that even though we lack talent on both sides, we will be competitive. I'm a firm believer in building every single position up equally.

If Henne is getting wins with this squad, it could be even better down the road with a younger QB. That being said, I also like to sit younger QBs a year or so to develop them. The only exception would be if you were drafting a Teddy Bridgewater who is termed "NFL ready". Outside of that let them sit behind a veteran. Henne isn't a great veteran, but a veteran none-the-less.
I think Carr is just as NFL ready as Bridgewater if not a little more so since he's been growing up around the culture since he was 10 year old.

I don't think that has any relevance.
Correct. Archie and Peyton was a far better environment for Eli than anything Carr has had and he wasn't even close to NFL ready to start his career, whereas that same year Ben came from no pedigree and a small school and was NFL ready.


Yeah, i really don't think that makes Carr 'NFL Ready'.

I think the system he's coming out of, some of the bizarre footwork and throwing off the back foot mechanics, the inconsistent ball placement, and the fact that if you parachute Carr in behind a terrible O-Line he may end up just like his older bro, are all things that could potentially make him very NOT 'NFL ready'.

If we're not getting Teddy, i honestly think bringing Henne back would be a good idea at this point, based on who else we'd be able to target in the draft.
Carr played in a prostyle offense his first two seasons and shifted to a spread when the new coach was brought in. And I have no idea where you're getting inconsistent ball placement and bad footwork from, maybe you haven't watched him play this year. But that's made up stuff as of 2013. He gets the ball out super quick, so if his O-Line sucked he'd be able to make the passes regardless and he's not like his brother as far as being "scared" in the pocket goes.

And again, I didn't say that makes him NFL ready I said it's an advantage, which it is.


It doesn't strike you as at all concerning that Derek Carr (perhaps unfairly because of who his brother is) had people scrutinizing his pocket presence from an early stage and earned a bit of a 'skittish' label...only to lose that label when he transitioned to a wide open spread system where he consistently makes quick throws, gets the ball out before the rush can close, and often throws off his back foot, fading away, weird mechanics just to 'get it out quick'?

Again, i'm not saying i completely dislike Carr as a prospect, there are a ton of things to like...but i have a hard time seeing 'NFL ready' there, and a quality day 1 starter. And leaning heavily on his 'brother's wisdom' really doesn't make him NFL-ready either. He's going to need everything going his way if he's going to succeed in that sort of situation. And as a potential high first round pick...he's probably going to find himself in that scenario, wherever he lands. You don't see high pick QBs sitting very often these days.
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DjBuddaH


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So from the views and opinions on Carr, he seems exactly like our 2nd string QB right now. Why should I be estatic for him?
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DjBuddaH wrote:
So from the views and opinions on Carr, he seems exactly like our 2nd string QB right now. Why should I be estatic for him?

In what ways is he exactly like Gabby?
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.Buzz


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
DjBuddaH wrote:
So from the views and opinions on Carr, he seems exactly like our 2nd string QB right now. Why should I be estatic for him?

In what ways is he exactly like Gabby?

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FootballProdiG


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With Zach Mettenberger and Aaron Murray out with torn ACL's most likely for a good year, Mariota returning and most likely Hundley returning I've got



1.Bridgewater

2.Carr

3.Bortles(if he declares)

4.Manziel




Once Bridgewater is off the board if you choose any of the 2-4 that should be an improvement over Henne. God help this franchise though. This QB class went from pretty deep to pretty shallow in about two good seconds.



Edit: I'm actually thinking you should just draft talent this year and tank for Jameis next year. Get a nasty WR like Mike Evans or a top OL in the top 5(potentially Clowney if he falls to 3) and then keep filling some holes and just tank for Jameis.
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Vino


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess no one has actually watched Derek Carr this season. :/

He's not that far behind Bridgewater, and if you consider his arm and athleticism he has more upside.
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FootballProdiG


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vino wrote:
I guess no one has actually watched Derek Carr this season. :/

He's not that far behind Bridgewater, and if you consider his arm and athleticism he has more upside.



Definitely wouldn't say he has more upside(Bridgewater is going to be a top 8 guy eventually, Matty Ice type potential in the right offense), but he definitely isn't that far behind your right. He doesn't have the touch that Bridgewater has doing over the edge of the hash's with those back shoulder throws and a few other routes, but he's as ready as anybody. You don't get on my #2 spot for nothing. He's slowly creeped up my board all season.
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.Buzz


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballProdiG wrote:
With Zach Mettenberger and Aaron Murray out with torn ACL's most likely for a good year, Mariota returning and most likely Hundley returning I've got



1.Bridgewater

2.Carr

3.Bortles(if he declares)

4.Manziel




Once Bridgewater is off the board if you choose any of the 2-4 that should be an improvement over Henne. God help this franchise though. This QB class went from pretty deep to pretty shallow in about two good seconds.



Edit: I'm actually thinking you should just draft talent this year and tank for Jameis next year. Get a nasty WR like Mike Evans or a top OL in the top 5(potentially Clowney if he falls to 3) and then keep filling some holes and just tank for Jameis.


There is no way this team is in the top 5 next year with adding a Clowney/Barr/Mack+all of our other draft picks to go along with having to spend in FA. I just don't see how we don't draft a QB, although Hundley and/or Bortles will probably need to declare if we finish with 5+ wins. I'm honestly on board with any one of those 2 too go with Carr with our pick. If we feel confident we could trade back a couple picks and they'll still be there i'd be fine, but we need a QB. If they think they could be "the guy", we have to do it. Last years draft/FA is showing that another offseason with even close to as much success is only going to keep piling up more wins. This team without drafting a QB and going with skilled positions is just going to get more and more into that position where we are in that 10-15 range or so in the draft imo.
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DuvalsKing


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone would be mad if they would have been competitive all year… you pissed away the first half of the season and now they want to show up and play ball its too late for all that. I've been disappointed for the last five seasons and we have a legit chance in a year where there is a legit QB and you want to come on the last five games of the season why? For what a moral victory I can endure losing out the rest of the season because the reward 3 seasons down the road with a young franchise guy we can watch grow will be just fine with me.
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.Buzz


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DuvalsKing wrote:
I don't think anyone would be mad if they would have been competitive all year… you pissed away the first half of the season and now they want to show up and play ball its too late for all that. I've been disappointed for the last five seasons and we have a legit chance in a year where there is a legit QB and you want to come on the last five games of the season why? For what a moral victory I can endure losing out the rest of the season because the reward 3 seasons down the road with a young franchise guy we can watch grow will be just fine with me.


Like what has been said by IPwn, who did you expect us to beat? The Chiefs? Seahawks? Colts? Rams with Bradford? Broncos? Chargers? 49ers? The only game that we had a good chance in was the Raiders, but that was before anyone was comfortable in either side of the ball. Our defense was rough and still learning the complicated system that is Gus Bradley's defense.

We didn't [inappropriate/removed] away anything, we had a ridiculously hard 1st half schedule that was likely leading us to a 1-7 to 2-8 record as a best case scenario. We are showing this team has a very good coach and some pieces that most of us likely didn't think were anything more than a stopgap in guys like Ball, Marks, Hayes, Blackmon, and even Roy Miller has been stepping up in recent weeks although i'm not going to count him in the group yet. All of our rookies are making plays besides Joeckel, who was looking like a guy that we can put in at LT for the next 12 years and he'll play at an elite level.

This is the most hope i've had in the Jaguars in a long, long time. We have a competent GM that I know will find the right guy to lead this franchise, whether that be this year or next. If it's not this year, I know for a fact that he'll bring in some better talent to reinforce where this team is going, including the 50M we have to spend in the offseason. Enjoy it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that Raiders game was a possible win. We're a young team with a new coach, just getting pieces together who had to travel to the west coast to play the game. I had that as a loss before the season even started and didn't even consider the possibility that we could win.

I saw one game we could have won in the first 8 before the season started and that was the Colts game. I expected the Colts to be basically what the Titans were with Locker. Had you told me the division would shake out as it had, I would have, without question, predicted an 0-8 start. And I'm really not sure how anyone could have expected anything much different.
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