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CJ or Staff? Whos more important to the success of the Lions
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Whos more important to the Lions success?
Matt Stafford
64%
 64%  [ 18 ]
Calvin Johnson
35%
 35%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 28

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Laimbrane


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3912
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The team without CJ would be a lot worse than the team would be without Stafford. If you're not taking backups into account, then yes, obviously Stafford is more important than CJ because the QB position is more important.

Stafford: more important position
CJ: more talented, marginal value over replacement much higher

I don't think those are disputable facts. Beyond that, this question is simply one of what each person means by "value," and that's subjective. (This whole debate sounds eerily familiar)
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detroitroar


Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think everyone would agree that at this point CJ is still the better overall player.

I wouldnt give the edge to Stafford just because he plays a more important position.

I do however see Stafford get balls to CJ that Shaun Hill would never even dream of trying.

On the flipside, there are throws, mainly of the touch variety, that Hill wouldnt miss, that Stafford does.

I hate using the GB game as an example of how our O looks without CJ due to the poor play of the offense as a whole that day.

Run game was terrible; guys were dropping balls.

Most important quality in a QB is him knowing when and where to go with the ball. Stafford in that regard cant get much better.

His decision making and reads of the defense is at an elite level.

His accuracy however is probably all in all about average, all though when is on, he is pin-point.

His leadership, and will to win is unquestioned.

At the end of it all, what are we trying to do?

Win a game?

Make the playoffs?

Win the division?

We're trying to win the whole frickin thing, thats what.

I think Stafford gives us that chance.

CJ does a lot, but even if he were out, I would still believe it was possible as long as Stafford was in there.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laimbrane wrote:
The team without CJ would be a lot worse than the team would be without Stafford. If you're not taking backups into account, then yes, obviously Stafford is more important than CJ because the QB position is more important.

Stafford: more important position
CJ: more talented, marginal value over replacement much higher

I don't think those are disputable facts. Beyond that, this question is simply one of what each person means by "value," and that's subjective. (This whole debate sounds eerily familiar)

Yep, well said.
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SuhPLEX


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read all the posts here, but the most important stat IMO is wins. I don't care how many stats you put up, if you don't put up W's then it's meaningless.

I also like to look at this discussion as who has more positive impact; not who has more negative impact if they sit out. If you look at it in the perspective of the latter, you're pretty much looking at the dropoff of talent from the starter to the backups. If we had, for instance, Luck being groomed behind Stafford, it'd be easy to say CJ is more valuable. Or if we have AJ Green as our #2, Stafford would be more valuable. I think that perspective is flawed (but of course, I'm looking at it as who is the more valuable player in general, not for this Lions team in particular)

I look at it in the sense of who is harder to prepare for (because that is what ultimately makes our offense more successful, and leads to more wins IMO). The QB position, by nature, is harder to prepare for because your battling against the QB's mind, whereas with a WR you pretty much add bodies and swing coverage.

Before I go further, I'd like to add that each of their value goes up when playing together. Staffords ability to make amazing throws and CJ's ability to make amazing catches when the ball is in the right spot are arguably both the best in the league.

It's a really complicated discussion to have. Staffords value is largely determined by having receivers that can be "thrown open," because that is his strength. We don't have many of those receivers. Stafford doesn't pick apart defenses like a Peyton Manning (or, at least, we haven't seen him do it, which could be a testament to having poor WR depth). Although, I believe he is smart enough to do it, and has shown ability to spread the ball around effectively.

CJ's value is in the fact that he makes the QB's job easier by rolling coverage, as well as having the knack of being "always open." One thing going for him is there isn't any apparent flaws in his game- he is undoubtedly the better player; but the topic is about value.

In terms of comparison, I think we should look at this as what do you trust more- Staffords ability to spread the ball around and find open receivers, or CJ's ability to consistently make great catches to win us games and draw coverage. Looking at this, one would probably say CJ is more valuable, but lets look a bit deeper in terms of offensive effectivness...

Many great receivers draw coverage. Heck, you only have to be fast to do that. That value is directly contingent to having a QB that can find holes in the defense left by swinging coverage. This, in it of itself, doesn't make an offense effective and doesn't win games; although still does hold value (but, like I said, that value is contingent on the QB so that makes the WR have less impact if you can't take advantage of the extra space). What does win games, however, is the ability to still make catches with this type of coverage on you. This is where CJ's true value lies, and he is the best in the game at this. Also, lets not forget that it is impossible for a WR to consistently make enough great catches to win 60 minute games, its just not practical. This is important.

A QB that can spread the ball around effectively is VARY hard to gameplan against. This has been a knock on Stafford at times- but lets not forget that he still puts up impressive stat lines in CJ's absence. He has shown the ability to take what the defense gives him- thing is you can't take away CJ, which is at the heart of the discussion.

Looking at it individually, what wins us games is Staffords ability to find the open receiver and CJ's ability to make amazing catches while being double/triple covered. Given how hard it is, even for a player of CJ's caliber, to make enough of those catches to consistently win games, give me Stafford in this discussion. His ability to find the open receiver (even if it's CJ triple covered) will generate more wins, IMO.



P.S. this is a very complicated thing, and I didn't even bother taking into account the run game. If someone wants to pose an argument of how the run game plays into this, it could potentially sway me (although, I'm a firm believer that you run to set up the pass. Very rarely does a good run game equate to wins in the absence of a good passing game)
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Cruz is one of best WR in the game


detfan782004 wrote:

(Eli) Manning has a new look offense and he has looked really good in it.


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diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuhPLEX wrote:
I haven't read all the posts here, but the most important stat IMO is wins. I don't care how many stats you put up, if you don't put up W's then it's meaningless.

I also like to look at this discussion as who has more positive impact; not who has more negative impact if they sit out. If you look at it in the perspective of the latter, you're pretty much looking at the dropoff of talent from the starter to the backups. If we had, for instance, Luck being groomed behind Stafford, it'd be easy to say CJ is more valuable. Or if we have AJ Green as our #2, Stafford would be more valuable. I think that perspective is flawed (but of course, I'm looking at it as who is the more valuable player in general, not for this Lions team in particular)

I look at it in the sense of who is harder to prepare for (because that is what ultimately makes our offense more successful, and leads to more wins IMO). The QB position, by nature, is harder to prepare for because your battling against the QB's mind, whereas with a WR you pretty much add bodies and swing coverage.

Before I go further, I'd like to add that each of their value goes up when playing together. Staffords ability to make amazing throws and CJ's ability to make amazing catches when the ball is in the right spot are arguably both the best in the league.

It's a really complicated discussion to have. Staffords value is largely determined by having receivers that can be "thrown open," because that is his strength. We don't have many of those receivers. Stafford doesn't pick apart defenses like a Peyton Manning (or, at least, we haven't seen him do it, which could be a testament to having poor WR depth). Although, I believe he is smart enough to do it, and has shown ability to spread the ball around effectively.

CJ's value is in the fact that he makes the QB's job easier by rolling coverage, as well as having the knack of being "always open." One thing going for him is there isn't any apparent flaws in his game- he is undoubtedly the better player; but the topic is about value.

In terms of comparison, I think we should look at this as what do you trust more- Staffords ability to spread the ball around and find open receivers, or CJ's ability to consistently make great catches to win us games and draw coverage. Looking at this, one would probably say CJ is more valuable, but lets look a bit deeper in terms of offensive effectivness...

Many great receivers draw coverage. Heck, you only have to be fast to do that. That value is directly contingent to having a QB that can find holes in the defense left by swinging coverage. This, in it of itself, doesn't make an offense effective and doesn't win games; although still does hold value (but, like I said, that value is contingent on the QB so that makes the WR have less impact if you can't take advantage of the extra space). What does win games, however, is the ability to still make catches with this type of coverage on you. This is where CJ's true value lies, and he is the best in the game at this. Also, lets not forget that it is impossible for a WR to consistently make enough great catches to win 60 minute games, its just not practical. This is important.

A QB that can spread the ball around effectively is VARY hard to gameplan against. This has been a knock on Stafford at times- but lets not forget that he still puts up impressive stat lines in CJ's absence. He has shown the ability to take what the defense gives him- thing is you can't take away CJ, which is at the heart of the discussion.

Looking at it individually, what wins us games is Staffords ability to find the open receiver and CJ's ability to make amazing catches while being double/triple covered. Given how hard it is, even for a player of CJ's caliber, to make enough of those catches to consistently win games, give me Stafford in this discussion. His ability to find the open receiver (even if it's CJ triple covered) will generate more wins, IMO.



P.S. this is a very complicated thing, and I didn't even bother taking into account the run game. If someone wants to pose an argument of how the run game plays into this, it could potentially sway me (although, I'm a firm believer that you run to set up the pass. Very rarely does a good run game equate to wins in the absence of a good passing game)


Very well thought out complete response. I also chose Stafford.

I ride Stafford when he's off his game just as I would any player. I would simply like to point out that it took Manning a number of years to be able to pick apart a defence. If we look back to Staffords early play and compare it to how he plays now I think he's shown significant improvement in picking apart a defence and understanding how a play will develop. There certainly aren't any guarantees but based on the improvement I've seen I think there's a good chance that three years down the road Staffords on field analytics will rival Mannngs.
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