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Dimitroff and the neglecting the lines myth.
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terrell123


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 4627
Location: Atlanta
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonnyQuest wrote:
Just saw TG is open to a trade. So I'm now ok with him being traded. I just wanted TG's wishes to be respected, whatever they may be.
It was just a matter of time.............. Shame on you

Last edited by terrell123 on Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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terrell123


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonnyQuest wrote:
terrell123 wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
terrell123 wrote:
JonnyQuest wrote:
terrell123 wrote:
I wonder if we can get a 2nd for TG? And another 2nd or 3rd for Roddy? We need PICKS..Hell, we might as well throw Blalock, Babs and Samuels names out there too if anyone is interested. The more picks the better.


That is going a bit too far man. We are not at a point where rebuilding would be a good decision. Less injuries, development of our corners, and a good draft next year will catapult us into SB contention once again. Tony G came back for solely the Falcons. He doesn't want to have to go through learning a new offense and getting acclimated in a different lockeroom. This a business, but TG deserves and earned respect. Let him play out his career in ATL. We should be grateful to see the greatest TE in history finish out his career in a Falcons uniform.
Why keep Gonzo and Samuels around? Theyre more than likely gone away. Tony for sure. And Assante is almost done. Might as well try to get something for them. Not talking about rebuilding. Just getting more picks and getting BETTER. We need to rebuild the trenches and add to our depth. Period. Hell, Blalock has been just as bad as the rest of the oline imo. Well maybe not as bad, but he hasn't been that good... Btw, Roddy is 30+ yrs old. and is gonna want 1 more good payday(We'd be fine with Julio, Tolio, HD, and co. if we had a GOOD oline. Remember we were 11-5 with Roddy, Jenkins, and Hartsock) Think he's gonna take a hometown discount? Think again....... But hey if he does, fine.... Besides, we've already got our #1 rec. And HD, Davis and co can only improve. Hell Id like to keep Roddy and every long time Falcon around, but its just not realistic. This is a business , not Madden. If Joe freakin Montana, Jerry Rice, Warren Sapp, and Brett Favre can be traded, released, or whatever, what in the hell make yall think Roddy White cant? If its gonna get us a good draft pick, TO MAKE US A POTENTIAL SB CONTENDER FOR YEARS TO COME, IM ALL FOR IT. And one more thing, if you think TG would be upset about a trade to KC you must be on some good shizz...... worried about learning a new offense?? Um... ok.. His body language is already changing when being asked about it. "He came back solely to Atlanta" because he thought we were a SB contender. Wtf he wanna hang around here for now?? Its his final yr for crying out loud. He came back to try to win a ring remember?? But anyway.......


Blalock is a staple in our offensive line. He isn't amazing, but he gets the job done, and you can't just assume a pick we get for him will come and replace him at the same level of play, especially when we would only get around a 4th at best for him. Asante Samuel is a good mentor for the young corners and can still help this team. I'd be ok with trading Roddy in the offseason. TG is my favorite player, so I don't want him gone. If he DOES want a trade, then I'd say let him have his wish, but as far as we know, he still doesn't want to be traded.

We got Samuel for a 7th, what makes you think we will get anything significantly higher from a different team? All the players you mentioned are more valuable to us than what they would fetch on the market.
Im not assuming anything. Has nothing to do with a 4th rdr replacing Blalock. You accumulate picks so you can possibly move up, down, etc.... and take who you want. Its all about flexibility. Get it? You cant fix the entire oline in one offseason. Geesh....... Btw, you do know that this is your favorite players last year right? Seems like you'd want your favorite player in a position to get a ring this year? I guess youd rather watch him get double teamed all year long on a non playoff team?? Bu anyway......


I thought all the other posters were a bit biased against their disdain for you, but now I see their reasoning...

It's TG's last year, but he has come out and said he does not want to be traded. He has shifted his view a bit recently, but until he comes out and says I'd like to chase a ring somewhere else, let him do what he wants.

All the players you mentioned we get rid of are worth more than flexibility in the draft. You are still assuming whoever we move up to get can and will replace these guys at the same or better level of play. That is unrealistic and foolish.
You know whats unrealistic.. Players actually coming out and saying theyd like to be traded. Tony would never do that. Sometimes you have to read between the lines. TG didn't come back for this. He came back to try to win a ring. I knew after the Arizona loss that he wouldn't be opposed to it. Could see it in his demeanor when asked about it. Hell , he has more ties to KC anyway.... And I could care less if Im liked around here by the homers. Please..... Just speaking my mind. And its not just about flexibility in this yrs draft. But drafts on down the road. I thought we were going with the Patriot way?? Used to hear that shizz all the time. TD has clearly gone in another direction...... You don't give up picks. You accumulate them. Especially if guys are 30+(Roddy) or overpaid(Baker, Jackson) Guess he didn't watch how Belichek did it all of those years afterall.

Last edited by terrell123 on Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SpoonFed56


Joined: 11 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just read that Tony G is open to trade but team won't make a move...
smh the guy wants to win a RING we are a longshot to even make playoffs let alone the SB.... let the guy go to a contender instead of being so damn hard headed. We could use the pick in the draft anyway. Tony G is 100% done after this season so why not ship him out and let him chase that ring.... oh well.. 3 minutes to the deadline it ain't happening. Enjoy being double teamed and held like a mofo for the rest of your career Tony... such a shame because you gave so much to this franchise
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terrell123


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SpoonFed56 wrote:
Just read that Tony G is open to trade but team won't make a move...
smh the guy wants to win a RING we are a longshot to even make playoffs let alone the SB.... let the guy go to a contender instead of being so damn hard headed. We could use the pick in the draft anyway. Tony G is 100% done after this season so why not ship him out and let him chase that ring.... oh well.. 3 minutes to the deadline it ain't happening. Enjoy being double teamed and held like a mofo for the rest of your career Tony... such a shame because you gave so much to this franchise
But "he's our favorite player"......... "He already said he didn't want to be traded". "Let him retire a Falcon". "He came back solely to be a Falcon". "He's worth more to us than some lousy draft pick." Tony would never leave Atlanta This cant be true..........
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JonnyQuest


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The FO may not have given up on the season and believe that we will still make the playoffs. 9-7 may get us in, and we have a chance at that record. It is highly unlikely we end up with that record with the way we are playing, but nobody really tanks in the NFL.
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BeeperKing


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonnyQuest wrote:
The FO may not have given up on the season and believe that we will still make the playoffs. 9-7 may get us in, and we have a chance at that record. It is highly unlikely we end up with that record with the way we are playing, but nobody really tanks in the NFL.


This so much. I'd be pissed if our team tanked at this point. There's still a chance, especially with more and more guys coming back. The NFC sucks, 9-7 could be good for the #6 seed. The Redskins started 3-5 last year and made it, so there's absolutely a chance for us. As Falcons fans, even if that chance is 1%, we should be rooting for the 1%.
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Without those elite targets, [Matt Ryan] is in the same tier as Matt Cassell.
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SpoonFed56


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Carolina - L
Seattle - L
@ TB - W
NO - L
@ Buff - W
@ GB - L
Wash - W
@ SF - L
Car - W

That's how I see it shaking out.... 6-10. We shall see though.
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terrell123


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SpoonFed56 wrote:
@ Carolina - L
Seattle - L
@ TB - W
NO - L
@ Buff - W
@ GB - L
Wash - W
@ SF - L
Car - W

That's how I see it shaking out.... 6-10. We shall see though.
If we're lucky. I cant see us winning in Buffalo. Mario and Darius vs our oline? And RG3 and Cam Newton are gonna run wild on our defense. I say 4-12 at best. Hope Im wrong. Btw, I don't think 9-7 will be enough anyway.... Gotta worry about San Fran(6-2), Detroit(5-3)
Carolina(4-3), and Chicago(4-3). Who should all have at least that many wins. But hey, stranger things have happened. Perhaps we can pulloff another 8 game winning streak? If so, both Smitty and TD should get a lifetime extension. Wink
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tech2186


Joined: 01 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SpoonFed56 wrote:
@ Carolina - L
Seattle - L
@ TB - W
NO - L
@ Buff - W
@ GB - L
Wash - W
@ SF - L
Car - W

That's how I see it shaking out.... 6-10. We shall see though.


That's a fair assessment. The biggest worry is the health of Matt Ryan at this point. Taking all these hits can't be good for him and throwing the ball 60 plus times a game only will put him in harms way even more.
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scar988


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tech2186 wrote:
SpoonFed56 wrote:
@ Carolina - L
Seattle - L
@ TB - W
NO - L
@ Buff - W
@ GB - L
Wash - W
@ SF - L
Car - W

That's how I see it shaking out.... 6-10. We shall see though.


That's a fair assessment. The biggest worry is the health of Matt Ryan at this point. Taking all these hits can't be good for him and throwing the ball 60 plus times a game only will put him in harms way even more.
he on pace to take less hits this year than he did last year...

took 26 sacks and 46 hits last year.

is at 10 sacks and 20 hits this year through 7 games. on pace for:
23 sacks and 46 hits...
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tech2186


Joined: 01 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scar988 wrote:
tech2186 wrote:
SpoonFed56 wrote:
@ Carolina - L
Seattle - L
@ TB - W
NO - L
@ Buff - W
@ GB - L
Wash - W
@ SF - L
Car - W

That's how I see it shaking out.... 6-10. We shall see though.


That's a fair assessment. The biggest worry is the health of Matt Ryan at this point. Taking all these hits can't be good for him and throwing the ball 60 plus times a game only will put him in harms way even more.
he on pace to take less hits this year than he did last year...

took 26 sacks and 46 hits last year.

is at 10 sacks and 20 hits this year through 7 games. on pace for:
23 sacks and 46 hits...


Seems like he has taken more. I wonder if pressures are counted in that as hits even if he isn't knocked down. Anyway...not being balanced is not good for a 100 mil QB. THis team has to find some kind of run game if they are going to be competitive from here on out. If not this team is going to lose most of their next matchups because teams are going to tee off on Ryan all the time.
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scar988


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's been pressured a lot more for sure. 92 in 7 games compared to 122 all last year. However, he gets the ball out quickly to avoid it.
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terrell123


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 4627
Location: Atlanta
PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scar988 wrote:
tech2186 wrote:
SpoonFed56 wrote:
@ Carolina - L
Seattle - L
@ TB - W
NO - L
@ Buff - W
@ GB - L
Wash - W
@ SF - L
Car - W

That's how I see it shaking out.... 6-10. We shall see though.


That's a fair assessment. The biggest worry is the health of Matt Ryan at this point. Taking all these hits can't be good for him and throwing the ball 60 plus times a game only will put him in harms way even more.
he on pace to take less hits this year than he did last year...

took 26 sacks and 46 hits last year.

is at 10 sacks and 20 hits this year through 7 games. on pace for:
23 sacks and 46 hits...
Yeah I think hes 2nd in the league in terms of not being sacked. Go figure......
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CoachFunk7


Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 755
PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't really read any of the responses, but I don't think anybody believes he's actually neglecting the lines(if they do, I think they're misguided), but rather when he does bring in players they often end up playing below expectations. Although I will say I'm furious we never took a DE higher than round 4 and he's not even on the team anymore. I have no godly idea what to think of Baker. He's decent when not injured, but how long are we going to wait and see if he can get fully healthy before making a decision to bring in his replacement? I know we just signed him but that really shouldn't matter when our line is playing the way it is, rookies don't cost much. We also should have picked up a Guard, at least for competition because Reynolds is terrible. One thing I think needs to change is the strength and conditioning coach. From what I've read he's more of a high-weight-low-reps guy which is not how Fish ran it; and now we have a rash of injuries. Just a thought. Also I'm convinced our line coaches need to go, especially Hamilton. We have a fairly healthy DL and he can't get anything out of them.
Also, I don't know how likely a 9-7 turn around is. We face some good DL's throughout the season(Car x2, SF, SEA, even NO) and I don't have a lot of confidence in our line holding up well against them. I hope on the defensive side of the ball that Nolan keeps blitzing from different positions because that seems to be working.
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Deadeye


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok scar988, I think your going to like what I've dredged up here because it supports your assertion that the lines have not been neglected by Dimitrov.

I decided to compare TD's 6 Falcon drafts to the six drafts leading up to the previous 5 Super Bowl champions. My logic was that you don't want to compare yourself to the league average, but rather the teams winning the Lombardi trophy. Furthermore it greatly reduces the amount of work needed to make a meaningful comparison. Here is the methodology:

1) The round of the pick is subtracted from 8 to assign a weighted value. So a 1st is worth 7, a 2nd is worth 6, and so on.
2) I did not count LBs, which might be fair to add to this. I focused solely on the o-line and d-line.
3) For each team I totaled the points, got an average, a high, and a low.
4) The format of each pick is round-position-lastname=points

Here are the results:

2013 Falcons
2013 = 7 points, 4th-DE-Goodman=4, 5th-DE-Maponga=3
2012 = 15 points, 2nd-C-Konz=6, 3rd-OT-Holmes=5, 5th-DE-Massaquoi=3, 7th-DT-Robertson=1
2011 = 2 points, 7th-G-Jackson=1, 7th-DE-Matthews=1
2010 = 14 points, 3rd-DT-Peters=5, 3rd-G-Johnson=5, 4th-G-Hawley=4
2009 = 15 points, 1st-DT-Jerry=7, 4th-DE-Sidbury=4, 5th-OT-Reynolds=3, 7th-DT-Walker=1
2008 = 10 points, 1st-OT-Baker=7, 5th-DE-Biermann=3
Total = 63 points, Average = 10.5, High = 15, Low = 2

-----------------------------------------

2012 Ravens
2012 = 11 points, 2nd-G-Osemele=6, 4th-G-Gradkowski=4, 7th-DT-Tyson=1,
2011 = 8 points, 3rd-OT-Reid=5, 5th-DE-McPhee=3
2010 = 17 points, 2nd-DE-Kindle=6, 2nd-DT-Cody=6, 5th-DT-Jones=3, 6th-OT-Harewood=2
2009 = 13 points, 1st-OT-Oher=7, 2nd-DE-Kruger=6
2008 = 9 points, 3rd-OT-Cousins=5, 4th-OT-Hale=4
2007 = 15 points, 1st-G-Grubbs=7, 3rd-OT-Yanda=5, 5th-OT-Gaither=3
Total = 73 points, Average = 12.17, High = 17, Low = 8

-----------------------------------------

2011 Giants
2011 = 10 points, 2nd-DT-Austin=6, 4th-OT-Brewer=4
2010 = 16 points, 1st-DE-Paul=7, 2nd-DT-Joseph=6, 5th-G-Petrus=3
2009 = 6 points, 2nd-OT-Beatty=6
2008 = 2 points, 6th-DE-Henderson=2
2007 = 7 points, 3rd-DT-Alford=5, 6th-OT-Koets=2
2006 = 15 points, 1st-DE-Kiwanuka=7, 4th-DT-Cofield=4, 4th-OT-Whimper=4
Total = 56 points, Average = 9.33, High = 16, Low = 2

-----------------------------------------

2010 Packers
2010 = 17 points, 1st-OT-Bulaga=7, 2nd-DT-Neal=6, 5th-OT-Newhouse=3, 7th-DE-Wilson=1
2009 = 16 points, 1st-DT-Raji=7, 4th-OT-Lang=4, 5th-OT-Meredith=3, 6th-DE-Wynn=2
2008 = 11 points, 4th-DE-Thompson=4, 4th-OT-Sitton=4, 5th-OT-Giacomini=3
2007 = 11 points, 1st-DT-Harrell-7, 4th-OT-Barbre=4
2006 = 17 points, 2nd-OT-Colledge=6, 3rd-C-Spitz=5, 5th-OT-Moll=3, 6th-DT-Jolly=2, 7th-DE-Tollefson=1
2005 = 6 points, 5th-C-Coston=3, 6th-DE-Montgomery=2, 7th-G-Whitticker=1
Total = 78 points, Average = 13, High = 17, Low = 6

-----------------------------------------

2009 Saints
2009 = 0 points
2008 = 13 points, 1st-DT-Ellis=7, 5th-DT-Pressley=3, 5th-OT-Nicks=3
2007 = 9 points, 3rd-G-Alleman=5, 4th-OT-Bushrod=4
2006 = 8 points, 4th-OT-Evans=4, 5th-DE-Ninkovich=3, 7th-OT-Strief=1
2005 = 10 points, 1st-OT-Brown=7, 6th-DT-Jefferson=2, 7th-DE-Verdon=1
2004 = 10 points, 1st-DE-Smith=7, 5th-DT-Leisle=3
Total = 50 points, Average = 8.33, High = 13, Low = 0

-----------------------------------------

2008 Steelers
2008 = 9 points, 3rd-DE-Davis=5, 4th-OT-Hills=4
2007 = 13 points, 2nd-DE-Woodley=6, 4th-DT-McBean=4, 5th-G-Stephenson=3
2006 = 10 points, 4th-G-Colon=4, 4th-DT-Harris=4, 6th-C-Philip=2
2005 = 8 points, 3rd-G-Essex=5, 6th-G-Kemoeatu=2, 7th-DE-Nua=1
2004 = 10 points, 3rd-OT-Starks=5, 6th-OT-Lacy=2, 6th-C-Caylor=2, 7th-DE-Taylor=1
2003 = 0 points
Total = 50 points, Average = 8.33, High = 13, Low = 0

-----------------------------------------

Conclusion - It looks to me like Dimitrov has not neglected the lines after all. However, as noted before the Falcons have not spent high picks on the DE position which is a major problem due to the weak pass rush. But overall he is pretty much in line with what the last 5 SB champs have done with their lines. I think the Falcons poor line play is either a result of bad scouting, or bad player development. At this point it's hard to tell which it is.
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