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Is Frazier the worst coach this franchise has ever had?
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ktarinze


Joined: 08 Oct 2010
Posts: 1358
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.


At this point him yelling might help out Laughing. I do like to see some emotion from a coach though because if you are animated you give off the message that you will not tolerate people playing bad football.

If he was winning and being a good coach I doubt it would matter what he was doing though.
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Robb_K


Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ktarinze wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.


At this point him yelling might help out Laughing. I do like to see some emotion from a coach though because if you are animated you give off the message that you will not tolerate people playing bad football.

If he was winning and being a good coach I doubt it would matter what he was doing though.


If you think Frazier has "lost" the team, and is falling on deaf ears, you didn't watch The Vikings during Les Steckel's reign as HC (1-13 record). He never had them from the first practise. Steckel was the least prepared NFL head "coach' I ever saw operate. What a disaster it was, choosing him for a head coach. After his year, the reeling Vikings had to coax Bud Grant back out of retirement just to bring some stability and respect back to the franchise. Grant got an 8-8 record out of virtually the same team as Steckel managed only 1 win.
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El Raymundo


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 5406
Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ktarinze wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.


At this point him yelling might help out Laughing. I do like to see some emotion from a coach though because if you are animated you give off the message that you will not tolerate people playing bad football.

If he was winning and being a good coach I doubt it would matter what he was doing though.

Bud Grant was more stoic than Frazier and no one complained about it. Just sayin'. Smile
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil Savage ‏@SeniorBowlPhil 2m
Speaking from experience, if GM decides to "ride it out" with HC, rather than cutting cord mid-season, both can end up walking the plank.


Something to look for.
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ktarinze


Joined: 08 Oct 2010
Posts: 1358
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robb_K wrote:
ktarinze wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.


At this point him yelling might help out Laughing. I do like to see some emotion from a coach though because if you are animated you give off the message that you will not tolerate people playing bad football.

If he was winning and being a good coach I doubt it would matter what he was doing though.


If you think Frazier has "lost" the team, and is falling on deaf ears, you didn't watch The Vikings during Les Steckel's reign as HC (1-13 record). He never had them from the first practise. Steckel was the least prepared NFL head "coach' I ever saw operate. What a disaster it was, choosing him for a head coach. After his year, the reeling Vikings had to coax Bud Grant back out of retirement just to bring some stability and respect back to the franchise. Grant got an 8-8 record out of virtually the same team as Steckel managed only 1 win.


Not saying frazier is the worst coach, I'm sure there are others. Childress was worst then him, but still think he is a bad coach.
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milanb


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an article from John McMullen of The Sports Network that was printed in the Victoria Times-Colonist.

http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/extra-points-vikings-need-to-start-over-1.669296

I think it's a little harsh, but in general I think McMullen is right in principle. This organization is dysfunctional and needs to be gutted.
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since72


Joined: 16 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Here's an article from John McMullen of The Sports Network that was printed in the Victoria Times-Colonist.

http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/extra-points-vikings-need-to-start-over-1.669296

I think it's a little harsh, but in general I think McMullen is right in principle. This organization is dysfunctional and needs to be gutted.


Awesome article. Black belt quotable.

Quote:
Left to his own devices, general manager Rick Spielman would probably pick Cooper to play quarterback at the Manning family reunion
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Bodysuit Man


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 739
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
Phil Savage ‏@SeniorBowlPhil 2m
Speaking from experience, if GM decides to "ride it out" with HC, rather than cutting cord mid-season, both can end up walking the plank.


Something to look for.


I don't think Spielman is the worst GM in the world, and I don't think he's the best. But when things are this bad I also don't think we're going to be any worse off if we wipe the slate clean completely. Having someone left over from the failed regime just promotes a sense that it needs "tweaking" as Frazier would say. And it's a little more desperate than that. Wilf would be smart if he got a GM who has overseen some sort of rebuilding in the past; one who will get a solid coaching staff together and turn it around before he dies.

Is Frazier the worst Vikings coach ever? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know much about the guys before Denny Green. But he's definitely one of the worst, and one of the worst in the NFL now. Might be the nicest guy ever but he does field a lousy football team most of the time--and doesn't seem to even recognize that.
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El Raymundo


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Here's an article from John McMullen of The Sports Network that was printed in the Victoria Times-Colonist.

http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/extra-points-vikings-need-to-start-over-1.669296

I think it's a little harsh, but in general I think McMullen is right in principle. This organization is dysfunctional and needs to be gutted.

Wow. Scathing.
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disaacs


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That writer has been out on that island for too long, apparently. He's gotten a little bitter.
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El Raymundo


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long ago, I came to terms with the fact that I'm going to be that old toothless man in the Alan Page jersey, smacking his gums together and trying to see through my cataracts, that some hot young news gal is going to drag in front of the news cameras when the Vikings finally win the Super Bowl. I'll be incontinent and drooling and happy and will probably pinch her butt. Hey, YOLO, right?
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Uncle Buck


Joined: 10 Apr 2007
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Location: Viking Country
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Raymundo wrote:
Going from memory - I don't think I missed anyone here - these are the names of the men who have been head coaches for the Vikings, listed in chronological order (leaving out Bud Grant's second tenure):

Norm Van Brocklin
Bud Grant
Les Steckel
Jerry Burns
Dennis Greene
Mike Tice
Brad Childress
Leslie Frazier

From that group, Van Brocklin, Steckel, and Frazier have not fared well at all. (I'm of the opinion that the team vastly over-achieved last year and didn't really deserve to be in the playoffs.) So I would put those guys in the bottom tier.

Childress and Tice I consider about the same - with neither being as bad as the preceding three but neither being as good as the next two either. Tice has nothing to work with, staff-wise, and all sorts of off-the-field issue to handle. Childress created problems. Both had some success, but mostly not.

Dennis Greene and Jerry Burns go in another group. Then, to top them all, we have Bud.

So we have this, in my humble opinion:

Tier I - Bud Grant
Tier II - Jerry Burns, Dennis Greene
Tier III - Mike Tice, Brad Childress
Tier IV - Norm Van Brocklin, Les Steckel, Leslie Frazier

Thoughts?


I'd put Denny a little higher than Burnsie. Although he didn't have a clue when it came to defense, Denny was, IMHO, an offensive genius, and this team had a lot of success under his leadership. He also stars in the greatest head coach meltdown of all time "The Bears are who we thought they were!" Laughing

Jerry Burns was a good coach, but he really blew it with Herschel Walker. How do you get a player of that caliber and get almost nothing out of him? Burnsie did have some great defenses in his day though.

Finally, as nice a guy as Leslie Frazier is, you are probably justified in putting him down on Level 4.
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incognito_man


Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Raymundo wrote:
The Gnat wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.


Yeah, the issue with Frazier has nothing to do with emotionless, it has everything to do with "Tubby Smithing" the players where he can't get any development nor does he adjust to the skills of the players but instead just does the same thing over and over again.

Help me out here. What's "Tubby Smithing?" It sounds dark and frightening, like a sinister, bad apple on the family tree in a Stephen King novel. One's ankles are not smashed against the bedposts when one is Tubby Smithed, I hope?


Laughing

I was reading through this and paused at the Tubby Smithing post and debated posting something, I chose not too and then I read your post.

When I first read "Tubby Smithing" someone it sounded like something that might be illegal or at least unfortunate for the recipient at best Very Happy
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perrynoid


Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Raymundo wrote:
Long ago, I came to terms with the fact that I'm going to be that old toothless man in the Alan Page jersey, smacking his gums together and trying to see through my cataracts, that some hot young news gal is going to drag in front of the news cameras when the Vikings finally win the Super Bowl. I'll be incontinent and drooling and happy and will probably pinch her butt. Hey, YOLO, right?


Well, at least you'll know what some of us feel like already! At least we can give you advice about adult undergarments...
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El Raymundo


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perrynoid wrote:
El Raymundo wrote:
Long ago, I came to terms with the fact that I'm going to be that old toothless man in the Alan Page jersey, smacking his gums together and trying to see through my cataracts, that some hot young news gal is going to drag in front of the news cameras when the Vikings finally win the Super Bowl. I'll be incontinent and drooling and happy and will probably pinch her butt. Hey, YOLO, right?


Well, at least you'll know what some of us feel like already! At least we can give you advice about adult undergarments...

What advice can you give me now? I go in for a fitting next weekend.
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