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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Jarvis Jenkins improved pass rush Reply with quote

Quote:
1. Jarvis Jenkins knew at season’s end that he needed to improve his pass rush. The film told him that; so did the coaches. So he spent the offseason training at a facility in Florida, working with Denver defensive end Derek Wolfe among others, and against the Pouncey twins — Maurkice (Pittsburgh’s Pro Bowl center) and Mike (Miami’s starting center).

2. Jenkins worked on taking a bigger step off the snap. “A big part of the defensive line is getting upfield with that first step,” he said. “You can’t stutter at the line. That’s an advantage for the offensive player.” It’s evident from watching last year’s games, the Seattle game for example, that Jenkins did not have an explosive first step, especially compared to teammate Stephen Bowen. In the few times he rushed in the nickel package vs. Seattle, Jenkins did not get upfield fast. On a Bowen sack, by his second step, he was across the line of scrimmage and into the backfield. On a Jenkins rush later in the game, it took him three steps to reach that point. Of course, on the Jenkins rush, it was from the base defense, and the linemen have different responsibilities — covering two gaps — than when aligned in the nickel. But again later in the game, Jenkins definitely stutter-steps on a rush and needs about four steps to cross the line. No pressure.

“Just taking a big step, getting that foot cocked back and taking a huge step and getting in the backfield in one full step,” Jenkins said. “It’s an advantage, instead of stutter feet and sitting at the line. I’ve seen myself doing that last year and other players like Stephen Bowen, they were already up field. I’m still stuck on the line.”
I got this from a weekly email from John Keim, so there really isn't a link
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Dashing


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMH. This means nothing Ive herd articles of Jason Campbell improving and Devin Thomas hanging with Chad Johnson to improve his routes etc.I also remember how suppose our DL was gonna destroy every one in 09 .


Jenkins has potential but sadly with Shannys history on D it will forever ever not be that good. heres hoping im wrong.

Cheers bru's. Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember how in 2011 training camp Jarvis received high praise almost every day as a future difference maker along that defensive line. It seems such a shame about his injury during that summer that so far seems to have derailed this potential.

Hopefully working with the Pouncey twins helps him progress, but as Dashing said this can be a bit hit and miss.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dashing wrote:
SMH. This means nothing Ive herd articles of Jason Campbell improving and Devin Thomas hanging with Chad Johnson to improve his routes etc.I also remember how suppose our DL was gonna destroy every one in 09 .


Jenkins has potential but sadly with Shannys history on D it will forever ever not be that good. heres hoping im wrong.

Cheers bru's. Crying or Very sad
he was good last year coming off an acl injury which always takes a year + to get back to where you were on explosion.

He's a 3-4 DE, they don't dominate with sacks, they're more monsters against the run and play like a DT who sometimes can get good pass rush in passing situations.

He'll be much improved on his pass rush this year.

He's already stout vs the run.

Our 09 DL did dominate. We had two pass rushers with 11 sacks and a NT with 4 sacks. (Although he rarely gave max effort) We were stout against the run mainly because of Phillip Daniels and Golston.

The problem we had in 09 was the FS, we've had since Sean Taylor died. We didn't and don't have a pure free safety with good range and with a gambler like DHall at cb you need a FS who can cover up his mistakes.

Hopefully one of the two rookies we drafted (Thomas and Rambo) eventually develop into a good FS but I don't think it will happen immediately and we shouldn't expect them to.
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Last edited by turtle28 on Sat May 25, 2013 12:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcshiny wrote:
I remember how in 2011 training camp Jarvis received high praise almost every day as a future difference maker along that defensive line. It seems such a shame about his injury during that summer that so far seems to have derailed this potential.

Hopefully working with the Pouncey twins helps him progress, but as Dashing said this can be a bit hit and miss.
yeah. I look for him to get back that explosion this year it takes a year for that to happen coming off an acl. I have a feeling he's going to break out on defense and be dominant like we thought he would be his rookie year. We need it to because of Adam Carriker's set backs with his injury.
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BuckleyBoy


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcshiny wrote:
I remember how in 2011 training camp Jarvis received high praise almost every day as a future difference maker along that defensive line. It seems such a shame about his injury during that summer that so far seems to have derailed this potential.

Hopefully working with the Pouncey twins helps him progress, but as Dashing said this can be a bit hit and miss.


If he gets back to where he was that 2011 TC, he's going to be very good. Watched him just dominate guys all day out there in 1 v 1's
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dashing wrote: "This means nothing... Jenkins has potential but sadly with Shannys history on D it will forever not be that good."

I suppose he did disappoint, I was really hoping he was going to win that position, but he didn't. I didn't study his '12 season, so whether it was simply a matter of him unable to beat single blocks, I can't say. I did see his injury from the year prior & sometimes players are more tentative when they return from a season-ending injury. I do know that DL coach Jacob Burney has spoken highly of his commitment, solid character, was Clemson's team captain. This article is from Dec. '12:
Quote:
"As he nears the end of his first NFL regular season, the game finally has started to slow down for Redskins defensive end Jarvis Jenkins. ... [He] has spent much of this year acclimating to the NFL and the [DE] position. ... Jenkins is coming off four of his best games, according to defensive coordinator Jim Haslett. Of Jenkins’s 22 tackles this season, 10 have come in the past four weeks. The 6-foot-4, 315-pound lineman recorded a season-high five tackles (three solo) in Washington’s Week 14 win over Baltimore. Last week against Philadelphia, [he] was more disruptive than he had been much of the year, pressuring the quarterback, clogging running lanes and recording a tackle for a loss." http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-12-27/sports/36030610_1_adam-carriker-london-fletcher-defensive-end

I was unaware he was far more productive near the end of last year, so perhaps there is some hope. This quote from Jenkins is from turtle28's OP:

“Just taking a big step, getting that foot cocked back and taking a huge step and getting in the backfield in one full step,” Jenkins said. “It’s an advantage, instead of stutter feet and sitting at the line."

The thing about this though is that it makes it seem like establishing an initial burst is something Jenkins needs to develop, when in fact it was one of his better attributes when he came out:
Quote:
"Jenkins showed flashes of potential early in his career ... emerging as a quality backup in 2008... Starting all 14 games in 2009, however, Jenkins proved to be much more than just another part-time contributor. He led all Clemson defensive linemen with 69 tackles, including 11 tackles for loss and one sack. Despite offensive linemen focusing on him in 2010, Jenkins was again quite productive.... Jenkins' unique blend of size, strength and surprising athleticism makes him one of the most position and scheme-versatile defensive linemen in the draft.

Pass rush: Provides minimal pass rush despite good burst off the snap and impressive upper-body strength for the bull rush. Lacks the agility and extended quickness to collapse the pocket. Can apply pressure, but needs a clear lane to close. Only had two total sacks over the past two seasons. Has long arms, but doesn't always play with the awareness to affect passing lanes.

Run defense: Wide-bodied defensive tackle with very good upper- and lower-body strength. Moved between the two defensive tackle positions and is often asked to shade over the guard. Has a surprising initial burst off the snap. Explodes into the blocker. Buries his feet to anchor against single-team drive blocks. Shows very good strength to hold up at the point of attack, even flashing the ability to split double-teams. Stacks and sheds blockers with relative ease, but doesn't have the balance or lateral agility to consistently make plays outside of the tackle box. Willing to hustle laterally and even downfield, but tires quickly.

Explosion: Has a legitimate explosive burst off the snap rare for a man of his size. Can rock the offensive lineman back onto his heels with his burst and very good upper body strength. Flashes big hitting ability, though he typically needs to gather some momentum. Has four blocked kicks over his career, setting the Clemson all-time record.
Strength: Possesses very good upper- and lower-body strength to anchor and would be even tougher to move if he played with better pad level. Has a tendency to come off the snap a bit high, slowing his ability to disengage from blocks. Has the stout frame and strength to consider in a two-gap scheme. ... Strong enough to pull down some runners with only one arm while being occupied by a blocker."
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/historical/1262942

Quote:
"Positives: Excellent size. Runs well and has good movement skills. Carries his weight well. Flattens down the line and ranges outside the box to track down ballcarriers. Good functional strength to neutralize blockers. Has strong hands and features an effective six-inch punch. Strong tackler.

Negatives: Needs to get stronger - bench-pressed only 17 reps of 225 pounds, which tied for the lowest total amongst defensive linemen at the Combine. Takes time to digest what he sees and is not an instant reactor. Can be slow to disengage and too often stays parked on the line of scrimmage. Needs to generate more power from his lower body. Plays tall against the double-team. Limited sack prowess - straight-linish, monotone rusher who just tries to push the pocket. The sum is not as great as the parts. Has only three career sacks.

Summary: Very athletic big man who flashed in one-on-one drills at the Senior Bowl and has the length, quickness and run-stopping ability to play the nose in a one-gap, 4-3 defense. Will have to get stronger and play with more consistent leverage to become a factor but has starting-caliber athletic traits."
http://tennesseepreps.rivals.com/cviewplayer.asp?Player=384752#scouting

Apart from a high motor, Jarvis Jenkins has all the tools necessary to factor up inside in their pass rush. Like turtle28 says, he needs to get back to using that burst he has & start finishing! The 1st source was a scout for Lindy's & the latter scouting report is from PFW. Both sources note that when he came out, he had to play with better pad level. The part about his downside as a pass rusher is that he seemed content to just push the pocket some, which is much different from a guy who sells out to get to the QB & fails anyway. Which is not unlike his comment pertaining to last year. It's like he didn't get after the QB, rather than he simply isn't able. Note that he drew a lot of attention, doubles while at Clemson. Momentum, leverage & hand placement are huge at this level. He has the length, quickness & the strength to come off the snap, stay flat & aggressively reach to get into the chest of the man in front of him. All I know is that this DL really needs a guy to factor big. If he can't penetrate, with his size, at the very least he should be batting down more balls thrown to his side.
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't see it happening. He wasn't a pass rusher in college I don't expect him to all of a sudden become one. I've always thought he'd be more effective bulking up and playing the nose. He's a rough stuffing Dlineman, nothing wrong with that. We shouldn't try to force him away from his strengths.
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote:
I just don't see it happening. He wasn't a pass rusher in college I don't expect him to all of a sudden become one. I've always thought he'd be more effective bulking up and playing the nose. He's a rough stuffing Dlineman, nothing wrong with that. We shouldn't try to force him away from his strengths.
arent most 3-4 DE's this? That's exactly what they're asked to be. They're the size of defensive tackles, rarely do you see a 3-4 de get 5+ sacks. They are more run stoppers, they occupy blockers so the OLBs can be freed up and make plays vs the run, pass and rush the passer
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote: "Aren't most 3-4 DE's this? That's exactly what they're asked to be. They're the size of [DTs], rarely do you see a 3-4 DE get 5+ sacks. They are more run stoppers, they occupy blockers so the OLBs can be freed up and make plays vs the run, pass and rush the passer."

For someone like myself, I've always read this sort of perception as undermining the importance of the DL. Oh, DL, they're just guys who take up space. Yeah, well don't tell J.J. Watt that! When the Patriots were real strong guys like Ty Warren & Richard Seymour were big for them. In the '80s, that Giant defense wasn't just about Lawrence Taylor. Leonard Marshall & Jim Burt were wrecking machines, not space eaters. As was Ravens Haloti Ngata more recently. Do you really think that when Buffalo drafted Marcell Dareus in the 1st RD of 2011 they sat him down & told him that he just needed make sure someone was blocking him? But I can constantly disrupt & wreak havoc in the backfield! Oh, that's all well & good, but don't bother yourself with all that. We have other guys who'll do all the tackling and sacking. What's really, really, really important is that someone is blocking you.

After what happened to Green Bay in San Francisco, do you really think they drafted Datone Jones to make sure somebody is blocking him? An UDFA can be just another body out there, no need to waste your 1st RD draft choice on a premier 3-4 DE! If my understanding is correct, they want him opposite Clay Matthews, but not to chase around after the TE. When they come out of their base, he'll be the edge rusher & contain. The Redskins base is all that your comment accounts for. Anytime the opponent has a multi-rec'r set on the field, has to pass or are in their 2-minute offense, what good are space eaters then? You seem to have bought into this notion that you can get pushed around every which way up front and somehow win on the back end. As if magically, the front seven will be very good simply with the return of Brian Orakpo, who went down in the Cincinnati game, week three of last year.

You've often argued that the defense in 2011 was far better with Orakpo & statistically I suppose, that's true. Yet, the Redskin defense gave up 33 pts or more in four of their last five games of that year. They began 2012 giving up over 30 pts to both New Orleans & St. Louis. All WITH Brian Orakpo on the field. You either haven't considered or also deem it irrelevant that in 2011 the Redskin offense really stunk! Opposing offenses didn't have to score 30 pts to beat this team then. You don't run up the score in this league. Does it happen? Of course, but most games are close. When it's 30-0, the stadium & sports bars all empty fast & TV viewers change the channel. With often adverse affects on upcoming games. Just FYI, the home team, broadcasters, local affiliates, advertisers, nobody wants that! The official explanation is parity, but it's really about more money.
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jarvis came on strong the end of last year when he was seemingly more confident in his knee. I don't think it's unrealistic that he could come on strong with a full offseason being healthy.
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "Aren't most 3-4 DE's this? That's exactly what they're asked to be. They're the size of [DTs], rarely do you see a 3-4 DE get 5+ sacks. They are more run stoppers, they occupy blockers so the OLBs can be freed up and make plays vs the run, pass and rush the passer."

For someone like myself, I've always read this sort of perception as undermining the importance of the DL. Oh, DL, they're just guys who take up space. Yeah, well don't tell J.J. Watt that! When the Patriots were real strong guys like Ty Warren & Richard Seymour were big for them. In the '80s, that Giant defense wasn't just about Lawrence Taylor. Leonard Marshall & Jim Burt were wrecking machines, not space eaters. As was Ravens Haloti Ngata more recently. Do you really think that when Buffalo drafted Marcell Dareus in the 1st RD of 2011 they sat him down & told him that he just needed make sure someone was blocking him? But I can constantly disrupt & wreak havoc in the backfield! Oh, that's all well & good, but don't bother yourself with all that. We have other guys who'll do all the tackling and sacking. What's really, really, really important is that someone is blocking you.

After what happened to Green Bay in San Francisco, do you really think they drafted Datone Jones to make sure somebody is blocking him? An UDFA can be just another body out there, no need to waste your 1st RD draft choice on a premier 3-4 DE! If my understanding is correct, they want him opposite Clay Matthews, but not to chase around after the TE. When they come out of their base, he'll be the edge rusher & contain. The Redskins base is all that your comment accounts for. Anytime the opponent has a multi-rec'r set on the field, has to pass or are in their 2-minute offense, what good are space eaters then? You seem to have bought into this notion that you can get pushed around every which way up front and somehow win on the back end. As if magically, the front seven will be very good simply with the return of Brian Orakpo, who went down in the Cincinnati game, week three of last year.

You've often argued that the defense in 2011 was far better with Orakpo & statistically I suppose, that's true. Yet, the Redskin defense gave up 33 pts or more in four of their last five games of that year. They began 2012 giving up over 30 pts to both New Orleans & St. Louis. All WITH Brian Orakpo on the field. You either haven't considered or also deem it irrelevant that in 2011 the Redskin offense really stunk! Opposing offenses didn't have to score 30 pts to beat this team then. You don't run up the score in this league. Does it happen? Of course, but most games are close. When it's 30-0, the stadium & sports bars all empty fast & TV viewers change the channel. With often adverse affects on upcoming games. Just FYI, the home team, broadcasters, local affiliates, advertisers, nobody wants that! The official explanation is parity, but it's really about more money.
dude. I said "most 3-4 DEs" Don't get 5+ Sacks. You're naming a handful of guys in a 25 year span... Wink And most of those you named didn't have too many 5 sacks seasons

JJ Watt is a freak of nature, an exception to the rule with all this athleticism for a man his size. Same with Marshall, Seymour and Ngata.

1. In 12 years, Marshall had some great ones but a few where he did little.
2. In a 10 year career, Burt had 20 sacks. He had One season with 7 in '84
3. In 12 years, Seymour had some dominant years like Marshall but a few where he wasn't 1/2 over 5 sacks, 1/2 under

4. Ngata. Last 3 seasons over 5 sacks. Previous 4, under 5.

Got any more names?


As far as you're point about Rak/Carriker and the two games they played in, it's not a fair sample size as it is comparing the 2011 D with them both healthy all year and the 2012 D w/o them for 14 games. You're comparing 14 games to 2 games last year. That's not a great sample size.

Game 1 vs the saints we played one of the best offenses in NFL history and it was week 1, defense is always behind offense then. Especially an offense like the saints which has mostly been together for the past 5-7 years.

Game 2 vs the Rams. Orakpo and Carriker got hurt! So I'd lump that in with the other 14 where they didn't play actually because there back ups saw significant time in that game.
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "Aren't most 3-4 DE's this? That's exactly what they're asked to be. They're the size of [DTs], rarely do you see a 3-4 DE get 5+ sacks. They are more run stoppers, they occupy blockers so the OLBs can be freed up and make plays vs the run, pass and rush the passer."

For someone like myself, I've always read this sort of perception as undermining the importance of the DL. Oh, DL, they're just guys who take up space. Yeah, well don't tell J.J. Watt that! When the Patriots were real strong guys like Ty Warren & Richard Seymour were big for them. In the '80s, that Giant defense wasn't just about Lawrence Taylor. Leonard Marshall & Jim Burt were wrecking machines, not space eaters. As was Ravens Haloti Ngata more recently. Do you really think that when Buffalo drafted Marcell Dareus in the 1st RD of 2011 they sat him down & told him that he just needed make sure someone was blocking him? But I can constantly disrupt & wreak havoc in the backfield! Oh, that's all well & good, but don't bother yourself with all that. We have other guys who'll do all the tackling and sacking. What's really, really, really important is that someone is blocking you.

After what happened to Green Bay in San Francisco, do you really think they drafted Datone Jones to make sure somebody is blocking him? An UDFA can be just another body out there, no need to waste your 1st RD draft choice on a premier 3-4 DE! If my understanding is correct, they want him opposite Clay Matthews, but not to chase around after the TE. When they come out of their base, he'll be the edge rusher & contain. The Redskins base is all that your comment accounts for. Anytime the opponent has a multi-rec'r set on the field, has to pass or are in their 2-minute offense, what good are space eaters then? You seem to have bought into this notion that you can get pushed around every which way up front and somehow win on the back end. As if magically, the front seven will be very good simply with the return of Brian Orakpo, who went down in the Cincinnati game, week three of last year.

You've often argued that the defense in 2011 was far better with Orakpo & statistically I suppose, that's true. Yet, the Redskin defense gave up 33 pts or more in four of their last five games of that year. They began 2012 giving up over 30 pts to both New Orleans & St. Louis. All WITH Brian Orakpo on the field. You either haven't considered or also deem it irrelevant that in 2011 the Redskin offense really stunk! Opposing offenses didn't have to score 30 pts to beat this team then. You don't run up the score in this league. Does it happen? Of course, but most games are close. When it's 30-0, the stadium & sports bars all empty fast & TV viewers change the channel. With often adverse affects on upcoming games. Just FYI, the home team, broadcasters, local affiliates, advertisers, nobody wants that! The official explanation is parity, but it's really about more money.
dude. I said "most 3-4 DEs" Don't get 5+ Sacks. You're naming a handful of guys in a 25 year span... Wink And most of those you named didn't have too many 5 sacks seasons

JJ Watt is a freak of nature, an exception to the rule with all this athleticism for a man his size. Same with Marshall, Seymour and Ngata.

1. In 12 years, Marshall had some great ones but a few where he did little.
2. In a 10 year career, Burt had 20 sacks. He had One season with 7 in '84
3. In 12 years, Seymour had some dominant years like Marshall but a few where he wasn't 1/2 over 5 sacks, 1/2 under

4. Ngata. Last 3 seasons over 5 sacks. Previous 4, under 5.

Got any more names?


As far as you're point about Rak/Carriker and the two games they played in, it's not a fair sample size as it is comparing the 2011 D with them both healthy all year and the 2012 D w/o them for 14 games. You're comparing 14 games to 2 games last year. That's not a great sample size.

Game 1 vs the saints we played one of the best offenses in NFL history and it was week 1, defense is always behind offense then. Especially an offense like the saints which has mostly been together for the past 5-7 years.

Game 2 vs the Rams. Orakpo and Carriker got hurt! So I'd lump that in with the other 14 where they didn't play actually because there back ups saw significant time in that game.


That is not exactly true. The offense is always behind the defense in terms of progression towards the season. Offensive players have more packages and assignments to learn on different plays than defensive players. QB and new WR's have to get their timing down, along with TE's. RB's need to learn the running scheme and be able to read defenses.

Defenses are usually way ahead of the offense by the start of the season.
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "Aren't most 3-4 DE's this? That's exactly what they're asked to be. They're the size of [DTs], rarely do you see a 3-4 DE get 5+ sacks. They are more run stoppers, they occupy blockers so the OLBs can be freed up and make plays vs the run, pass and rush the passer."

For someone like myself, I've always read this sort of perception as undermining the importance of the DL. Oh, DL, they're just guys who take up space. Yeah, well don't tell J.J. Watt that! When the Patriots were real strong guys like Ty Warren & Richard Seymour were big for them. In the '80s, that Giant defense wasn't just about Lawrence Taylor. Leonard Marshall & Jim Burt were wrecking machines, not space eaters. As was Ravens Haloti Ngata more recently. Do you really think that when Buffalo drafted Marcell Dareus in the 1st RD of 2011 they sat him down & told him that he just needed make sure someone was blocking him? But I can constantly disrupt & wreak havoc in the backfield! Oh, that's all well & good, but don't bother yourself with all that. We have other guys who'll do all the tackling and sacking. What's really, really, really important is that someone is blocking you.

After what happened to Green Bay in San Francisco, do you really think they drafted Datone Jones to make sure somebody is blocking him? An UDFA can be just another body out there, no need to waste your 1st RD draft choice on a premier 3-4 DE! If my understanding is correct, they want him opposite Clay Matthews, but not to chase around after the TE. When they come out of their base, he'll be the edge rusher & contain. The Redskins base is all that your comment accounts for. Anytime the opponent has a multi-rec'r set on the field, has to pass or are in their 2-minute offense, what good are space eaters then? You seem to have bought into this notion that you can get pushed around every which way up front and somehow win on the back end. As if magically, the front seven will be very good simply with the return of Brian Orakpo, who went down in the Cincinnati game, week three of last year.

You've often argued that the defense in 2011 was far better with Orakpo & statistically I suppose, that's true. Yet, the Redskin defense gave up 33 pts or more in four of their last five games of that year. They began 2012 giving up over 30 pts to both New Orleans & St. Louis. All WITH Brian Orakpo on the field. You either haven't considered or also deem it irrelevant that in 2011 the Redskin offense really stunk! Opposing offenses didn't have to score 30 pts to beat this team then. You don't run up the score in this league. Does it happen? Of course, but most games are close. When it's 30-0, the stadium & sports bars all empty fast & TV viewers change the channel. With often adverse affects on upcoming games. Just FYI, the home team, broadcasters, local affiliates, advertisers, nobody wants that! The official explanation is parity, but it's really about more money.
dude. I said "most 3-4 DEs" Don't get 5+ Sacks. You're naming a handful of guys in a 25 year span... Wink And most of those you named didn't have too many 5 sacks seasons

JJ Watt is a freak of nature, an exception to the rule with all this athleticism for a man his size. Same with Marshall, Seymour and Ngata.

1. In 12 years, Marshall had some great ones but a few where he did little.
2. In a 10 year career, Burt had 20 sacks. He had One season with 7 in '84
3. In 12 years, Seymour had some dominant years like Marshall but a few where he wasn't 1/2 over 5 sacks, 1/2 under

4. Ngata. Last 3 seasons over 5 sacks. Previous 4, under 5.

Got any more names?


As far as you're point about Rak/Carriker and the two games they played in, it's not a fair sample size as it is comparing the 2011 D with them both healthy all year and the 2012 D w/o them for 14 games. You're comparing 14 games to 2 games last year. That's not a great sample size.

Game 1 vs the saints we played one of the best offenses in NFL history and it was week 1, defense is always behind offense then. Especially an offense like the saints which has mostly been together for the past 5-7 years.

Game 2 vs the Rams. Orakpo and Carriker got hurt! So I'd lump that in with the other 14 where they didn't play actually because there back ups saw significant time in that game.


That is not exactly true. The offense is always behind the defense in terms of progression towards the season. Offensive players have more packages and assignments to learn on different plays than defensive players. QB and new WR's have to get their timing down, along with TE's. RB's need to learn the running scheme and be able to read defenses.

Defenses are usually way ahead of the offense by the start of the season.
I spoke wrong. I meant our defense would be behind the saints offense which has had most of the same personnel the past 5 years.
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MKnight82


Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "Aren't most 3-4 DE's this? That's exactly what they're asked to be. They're the size of [DTs], rarely do you see a 3-4 DE get 5+ sacks. They are more run stoppers, they occupy blockers so the OLBs can be freed up and make plays vs the run, pass and rush the passer."

For someone like myself, I've always read this sort of perception as undermining the importance of the DL. Oh, DL, they're just guys who take up space. Yeah, well don't tell J.J. Watt that! When the Patriots were real strong guys like Ty Warren & Richard Seymour were big for them. In the '80s, that Giant defense wasn't just about Lawrence Taylor. Leonard Marshall & Jim Burt were wrecking machines, not space eaters. As was Ravens Haloti Ngata more recently. Do you really think that when Buffalo drafted Marcell Dareus in the 1st RD of 2011 they sat him down & told him that he just needed make sure someone was blocking him? But I can constantly disrupt & wreak havoc in the backfield! Oh, that's all well & good, but don't bother yourself with all that. We have other guys who'll do all the tackling and sacking. What's really, really, really important is that someone is blocking you.

After what happened to Green Bay in San Francisco, do you really think they drafted Datone Jones to make sure somebody is blocking him? An UDFA can be just another body out there, no need to waste your 1st RD draft choice on a premier 3-4 DE! If my understanding is correct, they want him opposite Clay Matthews, but not to chase around after the TE. When they come out of their base, he'll be the edge rusher & contain. The Redskins base is all that your comment accounts for. Anytime the opponent has a multi-rec'r set on the field, has to pass or are in their 2-minute offense, what good are space eaters then? You seem to have bought into this notion that you can get pushed around every which way up front and somehow win on the back end. As if magically, the front seven will be very good simply with the return of Brian Orakpo, who went down in the Cincinnati game, week three of last year.

You've often argued that the defense in 2011 was far better with Orakpo & statistically I suppose, that's true. Yet, the Redskin defense gave up 33 pts or more in four of their last five games of that year. They began 2012 giving up over 30 pts to both New Orleans & St. Louis. All WITH Brian Orakpo on the field. You either haven't considered or also deem it irrelevant that in 2011 the Redskin offense really stunk! Opposing offenses didn't have to score 30 pts to beat this team then. You don't run up the score in this league. Does it happen? Of course, but most games are close. When it's 30-0, the stadium & sports bars all empty fast & TV viewers change the channel. With often adverse affects on upcoming games. Just FYI, the home team, broadcasters, local affiliates, advertisers, nobody wants that! The official explanation is parity, but it's really about more money.
dude. I said "most 3-4 DEs" Don't get 5+ Sacks. You're naming a handful of guys in a 25 year span... Wink And most of those you named didn't have too many 5 sacks seasons

JJ Watt is a freak of nature, an exception to the rule with all this athleticism for a man his size. Same with Marshall, Seymour and Ngata.

1. In 12 years, Marshall had some great ones but a few where he did little.
2. In a 10 year career, Burt had 20 sacks. He had One season with 7 in '84
3. In 12 years, Seymour had some dominant years like Marshall but a few where he wasn't 1/2 over 5 sacks, 1/2 under

4. Ngata. Last 3 seasons over 5 sacks. Previous 4, under 5.

Got any more names?


As far as you're point about Rak/Carriker and the two games they played in, it's not a fair sample size as it is comparing the 2011 D with them both healthy all year and the 2012 D w/o them for 14 games. You're comparing 14 games to 2 games last year. That's not a great sample size.

Game 1 vs the saints we played one of the best offenses in NFL history and it was week 1, defense is always behind offense then. Especially an offense like the saints which has mostly been together for the past 5-7 years.

Game 2 vs the Rams. Orakpo and Carriker got hurt! So I'd lump that in with the other 14 where they didn't play actually because there back ups saw significant time in that game.
But there are 3-4 DEs who do generate pass rush. Isn't that the whole point of you posting this thread? You start a thread about our 3-4 DE trying to improve his pass rush then you say 3-4 DEs don't pass rush.

Don't get me wrong, I like Jenkins too, and I think he's got some talent I just think we're playing him out of position. I'd like to see us take a DE in the draft next year, someone who can get after the QB. Maybe we could move Jenkins to NT somewhere in the future where I still think would be his best position.
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