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3.23 (85th overall) - TE Jordan Reed, Florida
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Marcus21


Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 1138
Location: North Carolina
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rizzy wrote:
Quote:
I personally think the read/option is going away. Eric Mangini said it best on NFL 32. The way to stop all the read option is to punish the QB. Every time a team runs the read option make sure you hit the QB. Sure the back will pick up some nice yards, but how often are teams willing to get their QB punished for those nice gains. All the defensive caoches in the league are scheming ways to stop the read/option. The Falcons have sent all their coaches to Clemson to study the ins and outs of the R/O. The cheifs brought in the creater of the pistol formation. Adjustments will be made and R/O goes away IMO


What is your plan going to be when you start getting 15 yard penalties/ejections. The NFL isn't going to let you just tee off on their QB's. Most of the time Griffin would put his hands up and back away, if you hit him you are going to get a 15 yard penalty. If you keep doing it you will get ejected.
[/quote]

The only way the read/option works is if the QB sells the fake. I think DEs and OLB will forget the RB and play the QB. All it will take is picking you frachise QB up off the ground and picking grass out of their face mask and teams will stop putting their QB in harms way. I didnt come up with this idea.....Mangini did. When the QB sells the fake, he is a runner not a QB.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "I get that Reed is an athletic [TE/HB] but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen. I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much."

The material I have (3 publications) list Reed at 6'3". His speed is considered an asset, such that he can threaten the seam & create mismatches. Equally important, perhaps more so, is that he's quick & releases quick off the snap. From 2011, Lindy lists Niles Paul at 6'1" & PFW has him at 6'0⅞" suggesting he's a short 6'1". Paul is fast, but accordingly, he has "build-up" speed. He also has short arms & small hands. Conversely, scouts make note of Reed's agility & ability to elevate & make the spectacular catch. And the best part is he'll hold on to the thing! I don't know myself, but this all suggests that Reed's catching radius is superior to that of Paul. Does he have a similar advantage over Fred Davis? My guess is no & I agree, if Davis is healthy & dialed (he says he's keen to get it done), he's clearly the starter. There are guys that are bigger & guys that are faster, but Reed brings an excellent combination of the two attributes.

For me, it's imperative that the team fully commits to bringing Reed, Thompson & Jamison up to speed ASAP. These guys add or help to add a dimension to the offense that it currently lacks. I've said before that the read/option is totally dependent on two things, backside collapse and the ability of the QB to exploit it. A third requirement is that when the QB does keep it, those yards he gets are easy yards. It just seems naive to think that those yards are not going to become at least somewhat more difficult & tougher to get. Which is the last thing Robert Griffin needs.
Your publications are wrong. At the Nfl combine he was 6'2 and he ran a 4.72, about the same speed as Fred Davis who is two inches taller at 6'4 and weighs 15 lbs more than Reed.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/jordan-reed?id=2540160

Niles Paul is still 6'1, no matter how you want to nick pick an 1/8 of an inch, hes 6'1 on every site known to man. So Reed is an inch taller than him and around the same weight and Reed runs 2.5 tenths slower than him. My point had nothing to do with build up speed, just that he's not big, an inch taller than Paul, about the same weight and hea slower as far as the 40 times go.
Actually you seem to be nit-picking 1/8 of an inch

If you google Jordan Reed, 6'3" all 10 publications are reputable. When you google Jordan Reed 6,2 10 more come up but most of them list him as 6'2 1/2".

So he seems to be a Hair under 6'3, which really isn't worth arguing. Give him some cleats 1/8 higher and it evaporates lol

The important thing is how he creates the space by being Quick In space to separate. He will go for a contested ball but really he seems to be good at finding openings in the D, as Cooley was in his first couple of years

He also made some decent blocks so I can see that being improved, but his strength will be using him down the field where he makes it easy for the QB to find him all alone
I'm going by his official combine height. Period and that says 6'2. I also didn't bring up any of the 1/8's. I was saying 6'2 and have been saying that since we drafted him. Markrc99 brought up the 7/8 when talking about Paul, which I thought was nitpicking.

No doubt Reed is athletic and can create space because of that. I still wouldn't call him fast, big or a tall target. I'd call him a raw athletic tight end/h-back who needs to learn how to block, something all our other tight ends do well.

And how many packages are we going to run where we are going to be sending our rookie TE downfield instead of Fred Davis or a WR? It might happen some, but I wouldn't expect to see this multiple times a game all year long.

http://sonofwashington.com/2013/05/17/how-deep-are-the-redskins-tight-end/

Here is a good blog post explaining exactly how I feel about our tight end depth. I think Evan Redmon got in my mind and wrote this article. Laughing

1. We are deep at TE and we will keep 4.

2. Jordan Reed is the heir apparent to Fred Davis, but if Davis is back and can play its a question as to how much playing time he will see, but Reed will play.

3. This could be a break out year for Niles Paul.

Quote:
So Jordan Reed will eventually take Davis’ place, right? Not so fast. Don’t go to sleep on Niles Paul. Yes, that Niles Paul. Last season, he often looked like a trust fund baby in a bad neighborhood – not very comfortable and afraid of random acts of violence. But cut the man some slack. He was basically a rookie last year after being converted from WR to TE, the latter being a position he had never played before in his life. And we love him on special teams; hopefully he can fill the void left by Lorenzo Alexander’s departure.


Will this be Niles Paul’s breakout season?

Brian Tinsman, lead writer for Redskins.com, likes Paul as his breakout player of 2013. “He’s a matchup threat. He’s much faster than most of the TEs in the league”, Tinsman said. “Now that he’s in his 3rd year in the offense, 2nd season as a TE, he’s ready to take that next step. He really asserted himself on special teams last year, and moving forward, that will be a point of confidence for him and allow him to really blossom a little bit more in this offense.”
how do you like those quotes Mknight? Exactly what I've been saying about Paul for a few months since FFMDI Wink
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DCRED


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcus21 wrote:
rizzy wrote:
Quote:
I personally think the read/option is going away. Eric Mangini said it best on NFL 32. The way to stop all the read option is to punish the QB. Every time a team runs the read option make sure you hit the QB. Sure the back will pick up some nice yards, but how often are teams willing to get their QB punished for those nice gains. All the defensive caoches in the league are scheming ways to stop the read/option. The Falcons have sent all their coaches to Clemson to study the ins and outs of the R/O. The cheifs brought in the creater of the pistol formation. Adjustments will be made and R/O goes away IMO


What is your plan going to be when you start getting 15 yard penalties/ejections. The NFL isn't going to let you just tee off on their QB's. Most of the time Griffin would put his hands up and back away, if you hit him you are going to get a 15 yard penalty. If you keep doing it you will get ejected.


The only way the read/option works is if the QB sells the fake. I think DEs and OLB will forget the RB and play the QB. All it will take is picking you frachise QB up off the ground and picking grass out of their face mask and teams will stop putting their QB in harms way. I didnt come up with this idea.....Mangini did. When the QB sells the fake, he is a runner not a QB.


RG3 has the best fake in the NFL

BUT I agree with you that if Defenses just tee off on the QB that will put an end to this whole experiment. I'd rather see them opening up the Offense sooner than later

What Shanny did with Young in SF was magic, and with Elway he kept Defenses on their heels guessing by changing formations like water... From one game to the next you never knew what to expect.

That's what I hope he does with Griffin. Let him run on the bootlegs when it opens up, sure, but they need to be more creative with the Passing game and not rely on RG3's legs. RG3 can be every bit as good with his mind and arms as the other QB's that have done well with Shanahan
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://washingtonexaminer.com/redskins-mailbag-for-may-16-ask-john/article/2529831?utm_source=Washington%20Examiner:%20Redskins%20Newsletter%20-%2005/17/2013&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Washington%20Examiner:%20Reskins%20Newsletter

John Keim on our tight ends:

He doesn't see our first two tight ends on the depth chart changing. Fred Davis is the obvious No. 1 and Logan Paulsen is a good blocker and our offense requires at least one tight end to excel at blocking because the stretch zone play fails without a good blocking tight end.

As for the competition between rookie Jordan Reed and Niles Paul for playing time on our offense, it all depends on Niles Paul’s development in hid third year (second year as a tight end) and how Jordan Reed looks against NFL talent. Right now there is no way in knowing the answer to each question. Paul does have a year as a tight end and a year in our system so that should help him. He feels that think Reed has a role in our offense even if Paul does improve a lot. As we talked about before, Redd is more athletic than Paul. Paul has better straight-line speed, but Keim says quickness matters more. Reed also has shown he can be like a running back after the catch. Keim actually doesn't see Reed as a viable replacement for Davis if he’s unsigned after this season. Reed is a mismatch for LBs with his athleticism and for DBs with his size as a tight end.

Keim goes on to say that Reed has a looooong way to go as a blocker. A long way! Davis keeps improving as a blocker every year, but it even took him several seasons to become efficient enough as a blocker where coaches felt he was an every down tight end, just look back to Davis' first 3 seasons in the NFL where Cooley continuously beat him out mostly because of his blocking. Keim says Reed is entering the NFL even further behind as a blocker than Davis. Currently, Reed would have major issues if he's asked to block along the line of scrimmage right now. Keim did say that if Reed is asked to block on the move, he could help there just how they used Niles Paul last year most of the time.

Lastly, he does agree that is definitely a spot for Reed in this offense because of his versatility and that versatility is why people believe in time he can have Aaron Hernandez type production.
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markrc99


Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntiSuperstar wrote: "Good offense is about creating "breakdowns" on defense."

Earlier you had said that if it were so easy to defend the read/option, division rivals would've already done so. This comment only furthers my suspicion that your perspective is lop-sided toward the Redskins. The absolute over-pursuit of the defense, not subject to some element of surprise, but in fact something that keeps reoccurring out of the same formation, is attributable largely to the actions of the Redskins offense, simply isn't true. Tell me, all those breakdowns we saw in the Redskin secondary, those were mostly due to "good offense"? A good number of those big plays were broken down right here in this forum. While the execution of the offense was certainly a factor, many of them were totally uncontested! Here we follow the Packers too & we watched their playoff loss to San Francisco. It's lunacy for anyone to contend that Green Bay went into that with a specific game plan to address the threat posed by Colin Kaepernick. Here's a brief comment, in retrospect on that game:

Quote:
"... when the 49ers hosted Green Bay earlier this month, the Packers clearly were more concerned about the inside hand-off. Their defensive ends crashed, linebackers and safeties took steps toward the line of scrimmage, only to see Colin Kaepernick dart outside and down the field for huge chunks of yardage." http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/1/23/3907774/super-bowl-2013-49ers-vs-ravens-colin-kaepernick-read-option

See, this is definitely the mistake, everybody crashing, when in reality it isn't even necessary. I think DEs or OLBs will stop crashing to the extent they are, but even when they do, that FORCES the QB to keep the football. If Kaepernick hands the thing to Gore, he gets blown up! That crashing DE ALONE takes away the inside run. Defensively, you don't need the remaining defenders to that same side collapsing with him! Now, you've mentioned that the Redskins have Williams releasing into the 2nd tier & you're even dragging a TE or FB lead. Plus, you have the WR to that side as well. If everybody gets their block you still have something. Still, defensively what you have now is a lot more traffic! Now, instead of this huge swath of open field to exploit, easy, "untouched" yardage as you yourself acknowledge, Griffin has to get thru a hole. He needs blocks & they have to be executed!

Several of your following comments totally misrepresent the argument. Earlier you said things like this: "Neither the read/option or the Pistol contributed to Griffin's injuries." & this: "Most of Griffin's worst hits came on passing plays. As far as the read/option, he rarely took hits after the first few games." As I've said, I don't have an archive of games from last year. The examples I mentioned were only those that I recalled by memory. I specifically stated that the hits Griffin sustained in the Cincinnati game were out of a more traditional option set. I in no way, linked the hit he took playing WR in Pittsburgh to the read/option. The context of those & the others were meant to counter the argument that Griffin is built to take the punishment he endured. Indeed, him playing QB/RB got defenses treating him much like a ball carrier. That his injuries were due solely to his own recklessness or competitiveness while Mike Shanahan did everything to protect him. That's garbage! You yourself acknowledged that while Griffin was playing injured, hobbled, they still had him run that option vs Dallas. There's no getting out of him playing the QB position, which can be dangerous at times. But on top of that, there's the argument that he's actually safer running the football well over a 100 times for 800+ yds. He HAS to do the former, it's mandatory. Saying he's safer running the football to that extent is complete nonsense!

It's true that these option QBs exploited a lot of open field. That occurred play after play & week after week. The question is whether that's going to continue year after year. If history is any indication, defenses will catch up. And all that's required is better recognition, gap integrity, defenders staying at home and taking better angles. I agree with your point that out of the pistol, those are quick-hitters. My only point there is that it appears to me that Griffin uses both hands and sticks the ball right into Morris' chest, then, as Morris is actually passing him, he pulls it out. He's not just waving the football with one hand and immediately pulling it back. Meaning, it's not a cheesy fake, it's a very convincing one.

AntiSuperstar wrote: "Attacking downhill in the B gap is not threatening the read/option at all, the Quarterback can take the ball outside every single time."

If that player is Adam Carriker, I can agree. But if that DE or OLB is also a very good or great athlete, meaning he can get there, come under control and redirect wide, I'm sorry, he in fact is going to present a problem. A key weakness is that the free man, right there seeing it, controls the trigger! Recall that it appears that these outside contain players don't even seem to realize that Griffin is reading them. I'm sure there were times it was played well, but that was obviously the exception. Right now, recognition has been largely poor. Perhaps that will continue, I suspect it won't. If I understand you correctly, none of that will even matter.

AntiSuperstar wrote:"A great deal of their deep play action bombs have the Tackle ignoring the Defensive End and having the End blocked by usually a Tight End and running back double team. If you look at those types of plays they look very similar to a read/option play and that's part of the reason they're successful."

Interesting. At most, that's a three-rec'r pattern, where was the deep help? If the RB blocking is the FB, it's a two-rec'r pattern with Morris as a check down or releasing short. Those are run out of the pistol formation? I had noted previously, just as you state here, that one adjustment could be Williams passing off the DE & slipping into the 2nd tier on any number of other plays to help disguise. The problem I had with that was that by releasing the defense's premier pass rusher, that side would still anticipate something short. But you're saying they've done that & thrown the ball deep. I'm curious, are any of these plays you've described archived somewhere, i.e. at nfl.com? Even so, that doesn't change the fact that the defense's read, when the Redskins are in that pistol and they're trying to get the run stopped, begins with that freed up DE or OLB.

Again, you've said repeatedly that the freed up DE is essentially helpless to do anything. Do I have that right or not? If the DE or OLB triggers the option, he's out of position, nothing can ever be done. Here you go on to say that even with the OLB, S & CB to that same side all keying the OT & honoring Griffin on the option, none of that means anything either. Ha-ha. Unless the defense has a free man, they'll all be blocked successfully. Let me help you out with something, that's a gross assumption. Further down, you then put forth this example:

AntiSuperstar wrote:"The Redskins have a run play where Trent Williams pulls all the way across the formation to his right and the runner runs behind him, again that DE isn't going to get anywhere thinking that play is a read/option."

I agree, but that's really poor recognition. Again, defensively, the read isn't just Williams cutting the DE loose, but also penetrating into the 2nd tier. If he pulls and leads away, option to that side is off.

AntiSuperstar wrote:"Except you don't know it's a read/option. You're under this assumption that a Defensive Lineman has a perfect view of the field and that it's only on read/option plays that a DE is left unblocked, or initially seems to be left unblocked I should say."

Defensively, more often than not you don't know anything is anything, which is par for the course. Nor have I assumed otherwise. It's all situation, tendency, what you're struggling with to get stopped & how to exploit your opponent's weaknesses. I've only noted the obvious keys to the play in a narrow situation indicating what the play might be. But yes, I'm sure the free DE or OLB is in a position to clearly see whether there's run action & whether the QB is reading him. I mean, isn't the DE or OLB being deceived or forced to sit crucial to the decision made by the QB in read/option? Hello. This is interesting:
Quote:
"... 49ers left tackle Joe Staley ... noted [OC] Greg Roman has a gift for keeping opponents guessing. ... “There are a lot of different reads and it takes advantage of anybody that is out of position or not gap sound.” Staley said." http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/04/10/professor-saban-its-hard-to-get-read-on-49ers-read-option/

Quote:
"Stopping a running quarterback, especially in the read-option/pistol style, is about gap discipline. It is about not over pursuing off the perimeter. And while it sounds remedial, it most often comes down to ball awareness." http://www.chicagonow.com/da-bears-blog/2013/01/super-bowl-preview-i-kaepernick-versus-lewis/

Quote:
"Kelly has stressed above all else that he won't force anything -- there has to be the proper marriage between scheme and personnel..." http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/jason-la-canfora/21918410/critics-already-burying-readoption-packers-and-others-know-better

You see that the literature often says the same thing, it's not about how great a scheme the read/option is, it's all about the breakdown defensively. It's also dependent on a great athlete at the QB position.

AntiSuperstar wrote:"Sometimes the Redskins run zone plays where a receiver comes and cuts the DE who was otherwise unblocked. Heck, it's standard against a Wide 9 defense in outside zone to leave the non-playside DE unblocked because he isn't in position to stop a stretch going the other way (and besides, even trying to would be overpursuit and opens up the rollout). Or the numerous screen passes where the DE goes unblocked."

My understanding is that "wide-9" isn't a defensive scheme but rather a technique utilized by edge rushers. They kick out, maybe a gap or so & although they'll arrive a half-second later, they're coming with more momentum and at a sharper angle. Coupled with leverage this makes it more difficult for the OT to force them past the QB. I think Philly used it a lot, but it concedes run lanes up inside. A screen, where Williams releases into the 2nd tier is a different play, but the ball ends up in the same place. If he releases and defenders to that side anticipate the option, but it's a screen instead, they're still in position to defend it. I think a few disguises we'll see, if not deployed already, are things like Williams initially blocking the DE, routing him inside before releasing or having him block down on the DT and the LG kicking out.

AntiSuperstar wrote:"The reason the TE or FB passed off on blocking that DE has nothing do with over-pursuit! Whether that DE is crashing inside to attack Morris or staying out for Griffin, the blocker runs right at him and peels off to block someone else. That's the point of the play. You control his pursuit angle and make it harder for him to get a read on the play while having a lead blocker should Griffin carry the ball."

Well, if the DE stays at home Morris is suppose to get the football. Since he'd be running the ball somewhere inside of that contain defender, I would think in that situation the upback would block the DE or OLB. You then seem to be saying that even if the DE is providing contain & Griffin carries the ball, he still isn't blocked by anyone, yet the reason isn't because it isn't necessary. It's "because that's the design of the play". Ha-ha. I really wish you could post some archived video of these plays you describe. Guess why? Because I'd then show you just how [inappropriate/removed] a player that DE or OLB is! There's no way an unblocked Clay Matthews, playing contain, is going to let Robert Griffin get outside of him. And the reason the TE/FB would pass on him if he crashes down on Morris is because he in fact has taken himself out of the play!

AntiSuperstar wrote:"I don't know why you're thinking it takes long for the Tight End to get around to run at the DE?"

That's because he isn't positioned as a TE, he's an upback or HB in the backfield, just the same as San Francisco does. He isn't lined up on the LOS, outside of the RT and coming all the way across the formation to provide a lead for Griffin. He just has an 80-something number on his jersey. So saying the TE comes across the formation isn't accurate, unless of course, you can show that to be the case! The 49ers also run a variant of the wishbone. With Gore or the FB, they'll add LeMichael James & Michael Crabtree to backfield too. Am I saying the two teams run identical plays? No, but you had said that what was unique about the Redskins is that they run a TE or FB across the formation to provide Griffin a lead block.

Quote:
"But the 49ers have added some muscle to their zone-read scheme by using fullback Bruce Miller as a lead blocker. Miller also reads the defense before deciding whether to seal off the defensive end, creating a cutback lane for Gore, or whether to create a running lane for Kaepernick by seeking out the nearest linebacker and knocking him into the next electoral district. "The things they do with the fullback coming out as a lead blocker, I'd never seen that before," said Ross Tucker, a former NFL offensive lineman." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324610504578278120688061916.html


I'm still in the same place with read/option. I think it can still be effective, but only if utilized far less. I believe huge swaths of open field will ultimately end & the QB will be confronted with more traffic & tackled more. I'll respond to video evidence, but the last rhetorical post is yours.
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MikeT14


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt we would draft a 3rd rounder to cut him.
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
DCRED wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "I get that Reed is an athletic [TE/HB] but he's not tall. He is the same height as Hankerson and Briscoe, an inch taller than Niles Paul and Josh Morgan. He's 2 inches shorter than Fred Davis and 3 inches shorter than Logan Paulsen. I get it, he's a new toy who could possibly develop into a Hernandez type player but I think you guys are boosting him up a bit too much right now. He didnt have much production at Florida. He doesn't have great size, he doesn't have great speed we actually have wrs and tight ends with better size and speed, but Reed is definitely a great athlete. We'll see what happens, but I think right now he's being hyped up too much."

The material I have (3 publications) list Reed at 6'3". His speed is considered an asset, such that he can threaten the seam & create mismatches. Equally important, perhaps more so, is that he's quick & releases quick off the snap. From 2011, Lindy lists Niles Paul at 6'1" & PFW has him at 6'0⅞" suggesting he's a short 6'1". Paul is fast, but accordingly, he has "build-up" speed. He also has short arms & small hands. Conversely, scouts make note of Reed's agility & ability to elevate & make the spectacular catch. And the best part is he'll hold on to the thing! I don't know myself, but this all suggests that Reed's catching radius is superior to that of Paul. Does he have a similar advantage over Fred Davis? My guess is no & I agree, if Davis is healthy & dialed (he says he's keen to get it done), he's clearly the starter. There are guys that are bigger & guys that are faster, but Reed brings an excellent combination of the two attributes.

For me, it's imperative that the team fully commits to bringing Reed, Thompson & Jamison up to speed ASAP. These guys add or help to add a dimension to the offense that it currently lacks. I've said before that the read/option is totally dependent on two things, backside collapse and the ability of the QB to exploit it. A third requirement is that when the QB does keep it, those yards he gets are easy yards. It just seems naive to think that those yards are not going to become at least somewhat more difficult & tougher to get. Which is the last thing Robert Griffin needs.
Your publications are wrong. At the Nfl combine he was 6'2 and he ran a 4.72, about the same speed as Fred Davis who is two inches taller at 6'4 and weighs 15 lbs more than Reed.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/jordan-reed?id=2540160

Niles Paul is still 6'1, no matter how you want to nick pick an 1/8 of an inch, hes 6'1 on every site known to man. So Reed is an inch taller than him and around the same weight and Reed runs 2.5 tenths slower than him. My point had nothing to do with build up speed, just that he's not big, an inch taller than Paul, about the same weight and hea slower as far as the 40 times go.
Actually you seem to be nit-picking 1/8 of an inch

If you google Jordan Reed, 6'3" all 10 publications are reputable. When you google Jordan Reed 6,2 10 more come up but most of them list him as 6'2 1/2".

So he seems to be a Hair under 6'3, which really isn't worth arguing. Give him some cleats 1/8 higher and it evaporates lol

The important thing is how he creates the space by being Quick In space to separate. He will go for a contested ball but really he seems to be good at finding openings in the D, as Cooley was in his first couple of years

He also made some decent blocks so I can see that being improved, but his strength will be using him down the field where he makes it easy for the QB to find him all alone
I'm going by his official combine height. Period and that says 6'2. I also didn't bring up any of the 1/8's. I was saying 6'2 and have been saying that since we drafted him. Markrc99 brought up the 7/8 when talking about Paul, which I thought was nitpicking.

No doubt Reed is athletic and can create space because of that. I still wouldn't call him fast, big or a tall target. I'd call him a raw athletic tight end/h-back who needs to learn how to block, something all our other tight ends do well.

And how many packages are we going to run where we are going to be sending our rookie TE downfield instead of Fred Davis or a WR? It might happen some, but I wouldn't expect to see this multiple times a game all year long.

http://sonofwashington.com/2013/05/17/how-deep-are-the-redskins-tight-end/

Here is a good blog post explaining exactly how I feel about our tight end depth. I think Evan Redmon got in my mind and wrote this article. Laughing

1. We are deep at TE and we will keep 4.

2. Jordan Reed is the heir apparent to Fred Davis, but if Davis is back and can play its a question as to how much playing time he will see, but Reed will play.

3. This could be a break out year for Niles Paul.

Quote:
So Jordan Reed will eventually take Davis’ place, right? Not so fast. Don’t go to sleep on Niles Paul. Yes, that Niles Paul. Last season, he often looked like a trust fund baby in a bad neighborhood – not very comfortable and afraid of random acts of violence. But cut the man some slack. He was basically a rookie last year after being converted from WR to TE, the latter being a position he had never played before in his life. And we love him on special teams; hopefully he can fill the void left by Lorenzo Alexander’s departure.


Will this be Niles Paul’s breakout season?

Brian Tinsman, lead writer for Redskins.com, likes Paul as his breakout player of 2013. “He’s a matchup threat. He’s much faster than most of the TEs in the league”, Tinsman said. “Now that he’s in his 3rd year in the offense, 2nd season as a TE, he’s ready to take that next step. He really asserted himself on special teams last year, and moving forward, that will be a point of confidence for him and allow him to really blossom a little bit more in this offense.”
how do you like those quotes Mknight? Exactly what I've been saying about Paul for a few months since FFMDI Wink
You also said we didn't need a TE and would never draft one. I said that TE was a need and we should address the position in the draft, even early in the draft if the right prospect fell to us. The coaching staff apparently agreed with me.
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Marcus21


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also had us drafting a TE in the third round.....just not Reed. I had us taking Travis Kelce from Cincy but he was gone when we picked. I think this was a best player available pick. I think he was high on our board, and they were surprised to get him in that late in the 3ed......just a guess.
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mike23md


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didnt think that TE was that big of a need where a 3rd round prospect would have been drafted, but if he was the best available on the big board, then so be it.

I like our draft overall from pick 2 through 7. We did really well.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote: "I said that TE was a need and we should address the position in the draft, even early in the draft if the right prospect fell to us. The coaching staff apparently agreed with me."

I can't remember what my search key was but I came across an article quoting Shanahan as saying something to the effect that while the team had greater priorities, they felt Reed was too good a player for them to pass on. There was also some speculation (due to his experience at QB), as to whether he might be utilized in their read/option set. Pipe dream I know, but wouldn't that be great? Proponents of read/option could still have that, while Griffin can then fully commit to becoming a great QB! Even if people like myself were to concede everything about how "safe" read/option is & everything that occurred in 2012, it CANNOT be anything more than an assumption that it'll be that easy from this point forward. That 181-yd record-shattering performance by Colin Kaepernick, the vast majority of which was totally uncontested, I don't believe we'll see again anytime soon.

It's been argued that part of Griffin's problem was that he doesn't get down, doesn't slide, but that's exactly what he was attempting to do when he sustained a concussion in the Atlanta game. He was also near the sideline & if memory serves, it did not occur anywhere near the 1st down marker. The defender didn't even try to pull up. It is said he was hurt scrambling, but there's considerable research contending that concussions are usually not the result of a single event. Here are several quotes from the RG3 2.0 thread:

big44dog cited: "The added factor for Griffin is that he has a prior history of ACL reconstruction. For an athlete with no prior history of an ACL tear, the recovery is a daunting process to begin with and usually takes longer than for other knee ligaments. Studies show that while the risk of re-injury is about 5% among patients who have had ACL reconstruction, the risk for failure doubles after a second ACL repair, and this study didn't just look at athletes who endure the wear and tear that football players do."

turtle28 cited: "And that's something that I took pride in after I had the concussion at Atlanta and a few other injuries. So I'll do my part to make sure that I stay healthy and keep myself out of harm's way while at the same time making sure the coaches do the same.”

I believe that 1st quote was at the time Griffin's recovery was still being evaluated. But that 2nd quote, which is a statement made by Robert Griffin, what's that about? To me, that's clearly not about how the matter in the Seattle game was handled. That's about what he was subjected to. Here's another Griffin quote:

Quote:
"... tweets sent by RG3 to ESPN’s Trey Wingo in March. Griffin asserted that, “I know where my responsibility is within the dilemma that led to me having surgery to repair my knee, and all parties involved know their responsibilities as well.” Griffin clearly placed significant blame on Shanahan for the injury. Reid believes this is still a problem for the organization." http://riggosrag.com/2013/05/18/are-mike-shanahan-and-rg3-on-the-same-page/


This one seems to be specifically about the injury in the Seattle game. There's some question as to whether Griffin is blaming the coach or the team's doctor. It's suggested that Griffin blames Shanahan, but in what manner? Does he blame Shanahan for not puling him out of that game or is he saying: I went into that game hurt & they still had me running all over the field? Collectively, the statements seem to suggest that Griffin is saying; yeah, some of it is on me, but some of it lies with how I'm being utilized.
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://sonofwashington.com/2013/05/19/could-jordan-reed-start-week-one/

Will Davis be healthy Week 1?

If not, will we see Reed get some looks, maybe start?

I still say he'll have an impact this year, even with Davis on the field... and Can't wait to see some creativity with the TE's...
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
http://sonofwashington.com/2013/05/19/could-jordan-reed-start-week-one/

Will Davis be healthy Week 1?

If not, will we see Reed get some looks, maybe start?

I still say he'll have an impact this year, even with Davis on the field... and Can't wait to see some creativity with the TE's...
I read that article also. Its definitely a good question. I don't think we'll know the answer in Davis till camp. I think Logan Paulsen (who will be our #2 TE) will start, because he can block and our offense is predicated off the run game. Reed will definitely get more snaps if we are definitely throwing the ball, but its going to be a tell if he's in the game because the guys a worse blocker than Davis when we drafted Davis. I wrote an article for www.blogsohardsports.com on the training camp battles on every position group but Qb and LB so far.

You should check it out

http://blogsohardsports.com/redskins/redskins-training-camp-battles-tight-ends/#comments
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote: "Will Davis be healthy Week 1? If not, will we see Reed get some looks, maybe start? I still say he'll have an impact this year, even with Davis on the field... and can't wait to see some creativity with the TE's..."

He says he'll be ready, he's cleared to run by June & apparently already is. But I found this part of your article to be of interest:

"Fred Davis is coming off an Achilles injury that, more times than not, happens to bother players for the rest of their careers. While Fred Davis ... is one of the near-elite level tight ends in the league ... his injury raises major concerns."

We know he sprained the same ankle (left) in 2011, but this was something entirely different.
http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2011/fred-davis-in-walking-boot-as-washington-redskins-injury-woes-continue/

He went down on the 1st series of the game, so it certainly didn't have anything to do with fatigue.

Quote:
"Davis suffered the injury on the first offensive series of Washington’s 27-24 loss to the New York Giants. He hadn’t previously had any problems with his foot." http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/10/23/fred-davis-having-surgery-in-charlotte-today/


I searched until I found the play itself, which you can access via the url below. I looked at it quite a few times, afterwards Davis says that he felt something pop but it isn't anything you see any evidence of in the video. Apart from the fact that he goes down & shortly thereafter is hopping off the field. When a player sustains a leg or foot injury you can see it buckle or collapse, here he just falls down. Which is odd, given that Davis runs on the balls of his feet, similar to a track star. I froze the video on the step which he ruptures his achilles tendon and the step just prior to that one. There's some initial contact with Rolle (the defender) but he's free, totally untouched on both steps. The ball goes elsewhere, it's not something that you'd attribute to the rough nature of the game. If you look yourself, I'm sure you won't come back & say, OMG he's done! No, you're going to be like; I can't tell what he did to it.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-am/0ap2000000152874/Fred-Davis-on-NFL-AM

So, there are two ways to look at this. One is that it didn't take much for it to happen. Note that all he does is release wide of the defender and then looks for the football back inside. He isn't trying to cut hard, he isn't planting that foot, there's no extraordinary amount of stress applied there. So the concern may well be legitimate. Perhaps he can somehow change how he runs and use that heel. This is dated yesterday I believe:

Quote:
"Fred Davis is not in jersey/helmet, is catching passes & running routes from [RG3]. A few sharp pivot routes, looks better than I thought." https://twitter.com/Russellmania980/statuses/337582680893968384


The other things you said about Reed & Davis, I mean, what a dynamic pair! With these two potential change-of-pace backs they drafted along with Reed all factoring, plus staying healthy at the skill positions, OMG look out!
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DCRED


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
MKnight82 wrote: "I said that TE was a need and we should address the position in the draft, even early in the draft if the right prospect fell to us. The coaching staff apparently agreed with me."

Quote:


I can't remember what my search key was but I came across an article quoting Shanahan as saying something to the effect that while the team had greater priorities, they felt Reed was too good a player for them to pass on. There was also some speculation (due to his experience at QB), as to whether he might be utilized in their read/option set. Pipe dream I know, but wouldn't that be great? Proponents of read/option could still have that, while Griffin can then fully commit to becoming a great QB! Even if people like myself were to concede everything about how "safe" read/option is & everything that occurred in 2012, it CANNOT be anything more than an assumption that it'll be that easy from this point forward. That 181-yd record-shattering performance by Colin Kaepernick, the vast majority of which was totally uncontested, I don't believe we'll see again anytime soon.


Purely speculation I know but hmmm...


Good Call MKnight82, a huge Bonus to be able to get him in the third + the REST of our draft?!?

markrc99 Great posts as always... I agree that performances like Kaepernick's will be very difficult to duplicate: They COMPLETELY ignored him that game running and backed off... But your reasoning is part of why I want them to open things up so badly.

I don't think they are taking any chances with Davis, in any regard (injury,susp,contract) and I Love that. Reed fell to us right when we had some definite concerns there. Hopefully he can add a dimension we lacked.

Mike's knowledge of Offense + Kyle's ability to blend Offensive concepts and make an Offense Work is becoming a scary duo:
It's time to Unleash The Genius in FULL EFFECT MIKE SHANAHAN! Kyle will implement All your Mad Schemes!... Twisted Evil
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FosterTheSkins


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Highlites of JR. Reed is the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-frWs5UGg0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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