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D Hall: It ain't about the money, I got that from Oakland
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brandonb2005


Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 503
Location: Clinton
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Hall is one of the worst starting CBs in the league. I honestly do think we'd be better without him, because I believe the other cb who replaces him wouldn't gamble as much as Hall.

I most certainly would rather have Biggers or Amerson start because they'd be at worst equal to Hall in coverage immediately, and they will only improve over the next 4 or 5 years and Hall will be regressing as a player in that same timeframe.


I have to disagree

Biggers was awful and only progressed toward the end of the year and its asking a lot of a rookie corner who isnt used to the speed to go in and start. Amerson is good but he isn't a come out and start right away corner just yet...lets at least see what he does in minicamp and the preaseason.

Hall at this stage of his career has at least two more season before he starts to lose his speed/athleticism.

I know the hate for him is strong but we need him if not for his play at least for the veteran leadership he has in the secondary. I also said I believe we will see a lot of Amerson when D.Hall plays inside.
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markrc99


Joined: 02 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote: "Good post markrc99! I fully endorse it. I've been saying it for years but in most of redskins nation that message falls on deaf ears."

Thank God! You must've rec'd the check I sent you! e:

brandonb2005 wrote: "Hall can't change direction??? He is one of the most athletic corners in the league. He gets burnt a lot because he is often looking in the backfield or bites on double moves. Thats the first time I ever heard anything negative about his agility/athleticism."

These are breakdowns from last year's Tampa game & the Steeler game.

Quote:
Ron Jaworski: "Both of Washington’s starting CBs, DeAngelo Hall and Josh Wilson are average coverage CBs who struggle at times to change direction and stay with quick WRs out of their breaks, across the field – both Hall and Wilson’s man coverage issues were exploited at times last week vs. Tampa Bay." http://ronjaworski.com/jaws-bites-10412-week-5/

Quote:
"Hall lost his composure and was ejected for berating an official. He also received two 15-yard penalties for it. ... His scheduled base salary of $7.5 million next season is too much for the level of production the Redskins are getting. Twice on Sunday, Hall was beaten in man coverage twice because his change of direction wasn’t sharp enough to stay with a receiver." http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/redskins-watch/2012/oct/30/redskins-steelers-film-review-defense/

No, I don't sandbag, if you're wondering. I knew that was the case about Hall, but went and found supporting evidence after you rejected it. When Hall came out he did possess excellent speed & I don't mean just straight-line speed, he had real ability to close or recover & as everyone would agree, great hands! The aggressiveness, temperament & toughness are still there, will support & tackle the ball carrier. But you need to consider his market value and if not that, the fact that offenses are certainly not afraid to throw his way & do so with a favorable rate of success. I do agree however, that a lot of breakdowns we saw last year were easily correctable. But I have to agree with turtle28, even if Hall were to hold a slight advantage over, say, a Chase Minnifield at the end of camp, I'm opting for the upside of the younger player. But another side of me doesn't want Hall anywhere around these young cats they have now.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brandonb2005 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Hall is one of the worst starting CBs in the league. I honestly do think we'd be better without him, because I believe the other cb who replaces him wouldn't gamble as much as Hall.

I most certainly would rather have Biggers or Amerson start because they'd be at worst equal to Hall in coverage immediately, and they will only improve over the next 4 or 5 years and Hall will be regressing as a player in that same timeframe.


I have to disagree

Biggers was awful and only progressed toward the end of the year and its asking a lot of a rookie corner who isnt used to the speed to go in and start. Amerson is good but he isn't a come out and start right away corner just yet...lets at least see what he does in minicamp and the preaseason.

Hall at this stage of his career has at least two more season before he starts to lose his speed/athleticism.

I know the hate for him is strong but we need him if not for his play at least for the veteran leadership he has in the secondary. I also said I believe we will see a lot of Amerson when D.Hall plays inside.
That's why I like the Biggers signing. The more research I did on him the more I learned that he struggled early on in the year but towards the end of the year he started to play better and that means that's he's hitting his prime and progressing as a player. It's similar to why some think Hankerson will break out this year also. Both players showed flashes towards the end of last year and those are usually the players who make the jump to the next level the next year.
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brandonb2005


Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 503
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
brandonb2005 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
Hall is one of the worst starting CBs in the league. I honestly do think we'd be better without him, because I believe the other cb who replaces him wouldn't gamble as much as Hall.

I most certainly would rather have Biggers or Amerson start because they'd be at worst equal to Hall in coverage immediately, and they will only improve over the next 4 or 5 years and Hall will be regressing as a player in that same timeframe.


I have to disagree

Biggers was awful and only progressed toward the end of the year and its asking a lot of a rookie corner who isnt used to the speed to go in and start. Amerson is good but he isn't a come out and start right away corner just yet...lets at least see what he does in minicamp and the preaseason.

Hall at this stage of his career has at least two more season before he starts to lose his speed/athleticism.

I know the hate for him is strong but we need him if not for his play at least for the veteran leadership he has in the secondary. I also said I believe we will see a lot of Amerson when D.Hall plays inside.
That's why I like the Biggers signing. The more research I did on him the more I learned that he struggled early on in the year but towards the end of the year he started to play better and that means that's he's hitting his prime and progressing as a player. It's similar to why some think Hankerson will break out this year also. Both players showed flashes towards the end of last year and those are usually the players who make the jump to the next level the next year.


I hope you are right turtle for the sake of the team
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brandonb2005


Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: Clinton
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "Good post markrc99! I fully endorse it. I've been saying it for years but in most of redskins nation that message falls on deaf ears."

Thank God! You must've rec'd the check I sent you! e:

brandonb2005 wrote: "Hall can't change direction??? He is one of the most athletic corners in the league. He gets burnt a lot because he is often looking in the backfield or bites on double moves. Thats the first time I ever heard anything negative about his agility/athleticism."

These are breakdowns from last year's Tampa game & the Steeler game.

Quote:
Ron Jaworski: "Both of Washington’s starting CBs, DeAngelo Hall and Josh Wilson are average coverage CBs who struggle at times to change direction and stay with quick WRs out of their breaks, across the field – both Hall and Wilson’s man coverage issues were exploited at times last week vs. Tampa Bay." http://ronjaworski.com/jaws-bites-10412-week-5/

Quote:
"Hall lost his composure and was ejected for berating an official. He also received two 15-yard penalties for it. ... His scheduled base salary of $7.5 million next season is too much for the level of production the Redskins are getting. Twice on Sunday, Hall was beaten in man coverage twice because his change of direction wasn’t sharp enough to stay with a receiver." http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/redskins-watch/2012/oct/30/redskins-steelers-film-review-defense/

No, I don't sandbag, if you're wondering. I knew that was the case about Hall, but went and found supporting evidence after you rejected it. When Hall came out he did possess excellent speed & I don't mean just straight-line speed, he had real ability to close or recover & as everyone would agree, great hands! The aggressiveness, temperament & toughness are still there, will support & tackle the ball carrier. But you need to consider his market value and if not that, the fact that offenses are certainly not afraid to throw his way & do so with a favorable rate of success. I do agree however, that a lot of breakdowns we saw last year were easily correctable. But I have to agree with turtle28, even if Hall were to hold a slight advantage over, say, a Chase Minnifield at the end of camp, I'm opting for the upside of the younger player. But another side of me doesn't want Hall anywhere around these young cats they have now.


Because you quote Ron Jaworski that makes it right? A guy who played QB in the NFL and not DB, the same guy who said Tim Tebow should be starting in the NFL. Have a seat on that one my man...

Jaws is a ESPN analyst, so his comments are more opinionated...you cant say CB's have problems changing direction based off observations from one game. A lot can play into it; fatigue, injuries just to name a few. Last year during training camp Hass said "once" D.Hall loses some of his "great speed" he can see him playing safety.

I know a lot of skins fans dont agree on Hall, But once again me personally I believe we are a better secondary with him. Once you said you would rather a CB with chronic knee problems who hasnt played an NFL down, take the field rather then a veteran D.Hall. That's all I needed to know about your stance/hate for D.Hall.

No need to carry on the covo if we cant talk reasonable Laughing
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's no secret that we have a love-hate relationship with CB DeAngelo Hall here at Hog Heaven. We felt he was overpaid for the value he delivered, which was a product of ex-GM Vinny Cerrato and f...

http://www.redskinshogheaven.com/2013-articles/may/deangelo-hall-we-started-something-big-in-washington.html


Good interview from Hogs heaven with D Hall
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bowilson


Joined: 14 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a worthless argument. What difference does it make if he didn't get an offer better than the one he got from us. I'm just happy he's still playing for the Redskins. If he had left we would have had to start Wilson and Biggers at CB and probably a Rookie at one of the safety spots. Our secondary would have been lacking leadership and experience. You are talking about money, but even thought Hall get beat at times, he made some big plays for us last season also. Retaining Hall was a no-brainer to me. If you would too focus on an area where the FO dropped the ball it's at RT for me. They brought in two Has-Beens in FA and an UDFA with potential but bad work ethics. The money we spent on Biggers, Pachos, Trueblood and Polumbus in this off-season could have been spent to secure a quality RT. Protecting RGIII is a high priority in my opinion and I don't feel we did a good job addressing this area of need.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bowilson wrote:
This is a worthless argument. What difference does it make if he didn't get an offer better than the one he got from us. I'm just happy he's still playing for the Redskins. If he had left we would have had to start Wilson and Biggers at CB and probably a Rookie at one of the safety spots. Our secondary would have been lacking leadership and experience. You are talking about money, but even thought Hall get beat at times, he made some big plays for us last season also. Retaining Hall was a no-brainer to me. If you would too focus on an area where the FO dropped the ball it's at RT for me. They brought in two Has-Beens in FA and an UDFA with potential but bad work ethics. The money we spent on Biggers, Pachos, Trueblood and Polumbus in this off-season could have been spent to secure a quality RT. Protecting RGIII is a high priority in my opinion and I don't feel we did a good job addressing this area of need.
well at Rt, they had to bring is has-beens, just like they did with DHall because they didn't have money to go out and truly upgrade the position like they had hoped. If we had been able to sign Winfield, we wouldn't even be discussing Hall right now. That's how close he was to never being a redskin again. Hall brings little leadership, he's cost with cap gate, cost us with blown coverages and blames it on others, and cost us with bonehead penalties over the years which definitely out weighs the few good games he gives us a year and the handful of turnovers. All those players you mentioned I don't believe got any guaranteed $ and nothing over 2 million, which would have been needed for a qualitity Rt. The fact that we didn't splurge on a Rt also speaks to how much they like Tom Compton imo. i think he'll definitely be starting at Rt in 2014 and possibly this year. you can say the same thing about the safety position, we didn't have the money to get a high prices FS, Meriweather our best safety actually took a pay cut to stay.
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Last edited by turtle28 on Tue May 21, 2013 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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THESKINSFAN21


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
bowilson wrote:
This is a worthless argument. What difference does it make if he didn't get an offer better than the one he got from us. I'm just happy he's still playing for the Redskins. If he had left we would have had to start Wilson and Biggers at CB and probably a Rookie at one of the safety spots. Our secondary would have been lacking leadership and experience. You are talking about money, but even thought Hall get beat at times, he made some big plays for us last season also. Retaining Hall was a no-brainer to me. If you would too focus on an area where the FO dropped the ball it's at RT for me. They brought in two Has-Beens in FA and an UDFA with potential but bad work ethics. The money we spent on Biggers, Pachos, Trueblood and Polumbus in this off-season could have been spent to secure a quality RT. Protecting RGIII is a high priority in my opinion and I don't feel we did a good job addressing this area of need.
well at Rt, they had to being is has-beens, just like they did with DHall because they didn't have money to go out and truly upgrade the position like they had hoped. If we had been able to sign Winfield, we wouldn't even be discussing Hall right now. That's how close he was to never being a redskin again. All those players you mentioned I don't believe got any guaranteed $ and nothing over 2 million, which would have been needed for a qualitity Rt. The fact that we didnt aplurge on a Rt also speaks to how much they like Tom Compton imo. i think he'll definitely be starting at Rt in 2014 and possibly this year. you can say the same thing about the safety position, we didn't have the money to get a high prices FS, Meriweather our best safety actually took a pay cut to stay.

Winfield would have played slot,Biggers is a dime guy. We'd still need a number one,Wilson can barely cover number 2.WRs
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THESKINSFAN21 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
bowilson wrote:
This is a worthless argument. What difference does it make if he didn't get an offer better than the one he got from us. I'm just happy he's still playing for the Redskins. If he had left we would have had to start Wilson and Biggers at CB and probably a Rookie at one of the safety spots. Our secondary would have been lacking leadership and experience. You are talking about money, but even thought Hall get beat at times, he made some big plays for us last season also. Retaining Hall was a no-brainer to me. If you would too focus on an area where the FO dropped the ball it's at RT for me. They brought in two Has-Beens in FA and an UDFA with potential but bad work ethics. The money we spent on Biggers, Pachos, Trueblood and Polumbus in this off-season could have been spent to secure a quality RT. Protecting RGIII is a high priority in my opinion and I don't feel we did a good job addressing this area of need.
well at Rt, they had to being is has-beens, just like they did with DHall because they didn't have money to go out and truly upgrade the position like they had hoped. If we had been able to sign Winfield, we wouldn't even be discussing Hall right now. That's how close he was to never being a redskin again. All those players you mentioned I don't believe got any guaranteed $ and nothing over 2 million, which would have been needed for a qualitity Rt. The fact that we didnt aplurge on a Rt also speaks to how much they like Tom Compton imo. i think he'll definitely be starting at Rt in 2014 and possibly this year. you can say the same thing about the safety position, we didn't have the money to get a high prices FS, Meriweather our best safety actually took a pay cut to stay.

Winfield would have played slot,Biggers is a dime guy. We'd still need a number one,Wilson can barely cover number 2.WRs
well I'm sorry to break it to you but we still don't have a #1 cb. Hall hasn't ever lived up to that since he was drafted. In the past he's gotten paid like one, but I'm not sure why because his performance on the field never warranted that.

Biggers and Amerson do have upside on their side and fundamentally speaking Winfield and Wilson are better corners than Hall. They aren't as good at forcing turnovers but they are better at stoping receptions, first downs and touchdowns.

Winfield could have started for us while Biggers and Amerson developed more. It's quite possible that some point during the season Hall will be benched if he plays like he did since we re-signed him in 09 or acts like he did in getting stupid penalties because unlike in years past we have a few guys with talent behind him that our coaches like for our future.
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brandonb2005


Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bowilson wrote:
This is a worthless argument. What difference does it make if he didn't get an offer better than the one he got from us. I'm just happy he's still playing for the Redskins. If he had left we would have had to start Wilson and Biggers at CB and probably a Rookie at one of the safety spots. Our secondary would have been lacking leadership and experience. You are talking about money, but even thought Hall get beat at times, he made some big plays for us last season also. Retaining Hall was a no-brainer to me. If you would too focus on an area where the FO dropped the ball it's at RT for me. They brought in two Has-Beens in FA and an UDFA with potential but bad work ethics. The money we spent on Biggers, Pachos, Trueblood and Polumbus in this off-season could have been spent to secure a quality RT. Protecting RGIII is a high priority in my opinion and I don't feel we did a good job addressing this area of need.


BINGO!!!!

Thats what I'm trying to get them to realize. If you think the secondary was bad before. Having Biggers cover #1 or #2 WR will be worse then Hall starting. Its a difference between watching tape on someone and watching Highlights.

I quoted bowilson because he hit it on the nail. I know D.Hall isnt the answer at #1 for the future but right now he is all we can afford and he can still cover #1 and #2. ONCE AGAIN DHALL is not a shutdown corner and will never be he is a ball hawk who will take chances but he is also better statistically, then Biggers. He has experience in the system and familiarity with the rest of the D. Maybe if Amerson makes strides next year he will be our #1.

Im just not too comfortable with the assertion to start Wilson and Biggers with Merriweather and a rookie FS. The back-end would get torched but experienced veterans.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "Good post markrc99! I fully endorse it. I've been saying it for years but in most of redskins nation that message falls on deaf ears."

Thank God! You must've rec'd the check I sent you! e:

brandonb2005 wrote: "Hall can't change direction??? He is one of the most athletic corners in the league. He gets burnt a lot because he is often looking in the backfield or bites on double moves. Thats the first time I ever heard anything negative about his agility/athleticism."

These are breakdowns from last year's Tampa game & the Steeler game.

Quote:
Ron Jaworski: "Both of Washington’s starting CBs, DeAngelo Hall and Josh Wilson are average coverage CBs who struggle at times to change direction and stay with quick WRs out of their breaks, across the field – both Hall and Wilson’s man coverage issues were exploited at times last week vs. Tampa Bay." http://ronjaworski.com/jaws-bites-10412-week-5/

Quote:
"Hall lost his composure and was ejected for berating an official. He also received two 15-yard penalties for it. ... His scheduled base salary of $7.5 million next season is too much for the level of production the Redskins are getting. Twice on Sunday, Hall was beaten in man coverage twice because his change of direction wasn’t sharp enough to stay with a receiver." http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/redskins-watch/2012/oct/30/redskins-steelers-film-review-defense/

No, I don't sandbag, if you're wondering. I knew that was the case about Hall, but went and found supporting evidence after you rejected it. When Hall came out he did possess excellent speed & I don't mean just straight-line speed, he had real ability to close or recover & as everyone would agree, great hands! The aggressiveness, temperament & toughness are still there, will support & tackle the ball carrier. But you need to consider his market value and if not that, the fact that offenses are certainly not afraid to throw his way & do so with a favorable rate of success. I do agree however, that a lot of breakdowns we saw last year were easily correctable. But I have to agree with turtle28, even if Hall were to hold a slight advantage over, say, a Chase Minnifield at the end of camp, I'm opting for the upside of the younger player. But another side of me doesn't want Hall anywhere around these young cats they have now.
Don't get me wrong. I believe Hall makes this team, but unlike in years past, I think this year he on a short leash and outside of him doing something amazing like becoming a great cover cb all of a sudden after not being one for 10 seasons, I think this will be his last year in DC.

He was basically re-signed this year because we couldn't find a definite upgrade because of cap gate, partly resulting from what we did with his horrible 09 contract.

I believe the hope is that by the middle of this year either Amerson or Biggers emerge to be as good or better than Hall. They are part of this teams future, Hall is not. If they come close to reaching their potential by any part of this season or Hall has horrible penalties or blown assignments again that cost us games, then I think he may actually finally lose his starting job.

When we start the season though, I do believe that Hall will be our starter opposite Wilson. I'd actually be quite shocked if he wasn't. To end the season though, I wouldn't be shocked at all if Hall isn't even one of our top 3 cbs.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bowilson wrote:
If you would too focus on an area where the FO dropped the ball it's at RT for me. They brought in two Has-Beens in FA and an UDFA with potential but bad work ethics. The money we spent on Biggers, Pachos, Trueblood and Polumbus in this off-season could have been spent to secure a quality RT. Protecting RGIII is a high priority in my opinion and I don't feel we did a good job addressing this area of need.


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5427/ej-biggers
Quote:
3/20/2013: Signed a one-year, $1.5 million contract. The deal included a $365,000 signing bonus. 2013: $635,000 (+ $500,000 roster bonus), 2014: Free Agent


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/2190/tony-pashos
Quote:
3/11/2013: Signed a one-year, $840,000 contract. 2014: Free Agent


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3704/jeremy-trueblood
Quote:
3/14/2013: Signed a one-year, $905,000 contract. The deal included a $65,000 signing bonus. 2013: $840,000, 2014: Free Agent


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5034/tyler-polumbus
Quote:
3/18/2013: Signed a two-year, $2 million contract. The deal included a $200,000 signing bonus. 2013: $800,000, 2014: $1 million, 2015: Free Agent



SUM TOTAL OF 2013 MONEY SPENT ON THESE FOUR PLAYERS: $4.145M (only counting Polumbus' 2013 salary and 2013 signing bonus part)


They didn't spend that much because of the salary cap restrictions, but they did try to address both positions. What they probably didn't expect was for guys like Sebastian Vollmer to sign a 4 year/$17M deal a week later, or for Andre Smith to sign a 3 year/$18M a month later. Both deals are significantly below market value (well, what the predicted price would have been before free agency began).

Had they not been constrained, they likely would have made a play for one of these two gents. In all likelihood, they would have paid significantly more than this, so perhaps this isn't the worst thing in the world since it showed them (and future free agents) what the value of a RT is in the league.

It's a short term fix attempt with a long shot hope of being the long term solution. It is worrisome because it could very easily blow up in their face and thus put both Griffin and Morris in danger. However, given what was available and what their cap situation looked like, it is not surprising they went that route.
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