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imani


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoS wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
No way does Thurmond make this team over Maxwell. Maxwell is a special teams stud and showed just as much upside at the corner spot as Thurmond.
He has not shown the upside Thurmond has, that's ridiculous.


I have to side with Tats here, I haven't seen anything to support that comment I remember Thurmond covering fitzgerald VERY well for a rookie two years ago. I remember him being pretty solid every time he touched the field healthy as a corner. Maxwell's impact on the field has been limited to ST to this point. I might agree that Maxwell would be better for this team as a #5, due to his ability in between possessions.....but i draw the line there


Maxwell was a top 15 rated metric CB in the multiple games he gave us this past season, which is something Walter Thurmond has NEVER done as a perimeter defender. Maxwell's special teams ability alone will give him the roster spot, but this forum seriously overrates Thurmond. Especially considering this is a player coming off yet another injury.
no. Really just no. Thurmond is a better CB. Injuries are a separate issue and obviously one that will be made in deciding who stays. However if Pete and John were to purely pick the best CB, it would be Thurmond.

Maxwell never even started except MAYBE the 49ers game


You don't need to start to show you can perform. Don't know how that line of logic works. Maxwell may not have started the Buffalo game (I don't remember to be honest) but I do remember finding that he had top 10 CB metrics for that week alone and that's the game that really put him on the map as a guy that could step up and perform in this league if called upon.

And sorry, but when we're talking about the 5th or 6th corner on the team, we're not just talking about "purely pick the best CB", you're looking for the guy that can do the most for your team. As of now, we know Maxwell can be a dynamite gunner on special teams whereas Thurmond offers little in the way of return help and essentially nothing on kickoff/punt duties from what I can remember.


this is essentially what i said earlier in the quote tree....

I'm just not gonna fall for the CB metrics in a small sample size as the end-all in this discussion. If we need a #2/#1 corner to be replaced in a pinch, you know who gets called from the bench first? A healthy thurmond.

Recall a CB with top 5 metrics in Derek Cox and the hype surrounding him by Jags fans. Where is he now, just a season removed? Point being, you can't deny that metrics showcase good CB play, but can also be flimsy in the long haul. That list can be noticeably different year in and out. The top 15 metrics isn't going to start Byron over browner now is it? It doesn't make him better than thurmond overall either. Just means he's played well in short stints and limited time
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoS wrote:
You don't need to start to show you can perform. Don't know how that line of logic works. Maxwell may not have started the Buffalo game (I don't remember to be honest) but I do remember finding that he had top 10 CB metrics for that week alone and that's the game that really put him on the map as a guy that could step up and perform in this league if called upon.

And sorry, but when we're talking about the 5th or 6th corner on the team, we're not just talking about "purely pick the best CB", you're looking for the guy that can do the most for your team. As of now, we know Maxwell can be a dynamite gunner on special teams whereas Thurmond offers little in the way of return help and essentially nothing on kickoff/punt duties from what I can remember.
So you're getting hyped up because Maxwell played well against Brad Smith, a poor man's version of Antwan Randel El? That seems smart. Especially considering we've seen Thurmond play very well against multiple opponents in a starting role.

Your 2nd point is an entirely separate issue. I have never had qualms with the idea of Maxwell making it over Thurmond because I understand the thought process of him being healthier and a better special teams player. What I've taking issue with is the BS claim that he's shown as much potential as a CB as Thurmond.
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SoS


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
No way does Thurmond make this team over Maxwell. Maxwell is a special teams stud and showed just as much upside at the corner spot as Thurmond.
He has not shown the upside Thurmond has, that's ridiculous.


I have to side with Tats here, I haven't seen anything to support that comment I remember Thurmond covering fitzgerald VERY well for a rookie two years ago. I remember him being pretty solid every time he touched the field healthy as a corner. Maxwell's impact on the field has been limited to ST to this point. I might agree that Maxwell would be better for this team as a #5, due to his ability in between possessions.....but i draw the line there


Maxwell was a top 15 rated metric CB in the multiple games he gave us this past season, which is something Walter Thurmond has NEVER done as a perimeter defender. Maxwell's special teams ability alone will give him the roster spot, but this forum seriously overrates Thurmond. Especially considering this is a player coming off yet another injury.
no. Really just no. Thurmond is a better CB. Injuries are a separate issue and obviously one that will be made in deciding who stays. However if Pete and John were to purely pick the best CB, it would be Thurmond.

Maxwell never even started except MAYBE the 49ers game


You don't need to start to show you can perform. Don't know how that line of logic works. Maxwell may not have started the Buffalo game (I don't remember to be honest) but I do remember finding that he had top 10 CB metrics for that week alone and that's the game that really put him on the map as a guy that could step up and perform in this league if called upon.

And sorry, but when we're talking about the 5th or 6th corner on the team, we're not just talking about "purely pick the best CB", you're looking for the guy that can do the most for your team. As of now, we know Maxwell can be a dynamite gunner on special teams whereas Thurmond offers little in the way of return help and essentially nothing on kickoff/punt duties from what I can remember.


this is essentially what i said earlier in the quote tree....

I'm just not gonna fall for the CB metrics in a small sample size as the end-all in this discussion. If we need a #2/#1 corner to be replaced in a pinch, you know who gets called from the bench first? A healthy thurmond.

Recall a CB with top 5 metrics in Derek Cox and the hype surrounding him by Jags fans. Where is he now, just a season removed? Point being, you can't deny that metrics showcase good CB play, but can also be flimsy in the long haul. That list can be noticeably different year in and out. The top 15 metrics isn't going to start Byron over browner now is it? It doesn't make him better than thurmond overall either. Just means he's played well in short stints and limited time


You won't taken CB metrics, something tangible and subjective, but you will try to use your own objective opinion on Thurmond's play as the barometer for this discussion. And guess what, if we have a #1 or #2 guy go down, Jeremy Lane and Tharold Simon are two OTHER candidates that could step in and bring a high level of play (presumably with Simon, just based off my judgment).

And as far as Derek Cox is concerned, I don't see your point. He actually was a very good CB for the Jaguars but injuries cost him a chance to be great, similar to Thurmond I suppose. And guess what....the Jags let him go. No coincidence there. Teams don't keep injury prone players just because they're talented. I think you just brought up a player that goes against what you're trying to say.
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SoS


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
So you're getting hyped up because Maxwell played well against Brad Smith, a poor man's version of Antwan Randel El? That seems smart. Especially considering we've seen Thurmond play very well against multiple opponents in a starting role.


Which was essentially Maxwell's only chance to prove himself with a large sample size of plays. From what we've seen of Maxwell when he's out there, he's been just as good as Thurmond if not better. I don't care who they're playing against to be honest, because I'm talking simply about how those players played in the games they had a chance to play in. That's all I can evaluate them by. I don't know how you can dismiss Maxwell's potential just because the level of competition (which he certainly didn't ONLY face Brad Smith).

Quote:
Your 2nd point is an entirely separate issue. I have never had qualms with the idea of Maxwell making it over Thurmond because I understand the thought process of him being healthier and a better special teams player. What I've taking issue with is the BS claim that he's shown as much potential as a CB as Thurmond.


So, in a thread about who will make the roster, we've essentially been arguing over the semantics of which CB has more potential? Laughing And this whole time I thought it was constructive toward the OP.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoS wrote:
Which was essentially Maxwell's only chance to prove himself with a large sample size of plays. From what we've seen of Maxwell when he's out there, he's been just as good as Thurmond if not better. I don't care who they're playing against to be honest, because I'm talking simply about how those players played in the games they had a chance to play in. That's all I can evaluate them by. I don't know how you can dismiss Maxwell's potential just because the level of competition (which he certainly didn't ONLY face Brad Smith).
Yes, he also faced some other crappy WR's. There's a reason why the Bills brought in 3 rookie WR's this year.

I don't even know how to argue this. It's one of the most clueless and stubborn things to ever be produced by your fingers Laughing He played inferior talent. You can't judge him the way you'd judge him if he'd done the same thing against Calvin Johnson. It makes no sense.

Quote:
So, in a thread about who will make the roster, we've essentially been arguing over the semantics of which CB has more potential? Laughing And this whole time I thought it was constructive toward the OP.
I responded to you. You made a statement. It's not my problem you chose to not actually read what I said.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
...13 Seahawks one spot over the 08 Steelers

ram29jackson wrote:
LO freaking L...Seahawks aren't repeating crap and you can book that
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SoS


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
Which was essentially Maxwell's only chance to prove himself with a large sample size of plays. From what we've seen of Maxwell when he's out there, he's been just as good as Thurmond if not better. I don't care who they're playing against to be honest, because I'm talking simply about how those players played in the games they had a chance to play in. That's all I can evaluate them by. I don't know how you can dismiss Maxwell's potential just because the level of competition (which he certainly didn't ONLY face Brad Smith).
Yes, he also faced some other crappy WR's. There's a reason why the Bills brought in 3 rookie WR's this year.

I don't even know how to argue this. It's one of the most clueless and stubborn things to ever be produced by your fingers Laughing He played inferior talent. You can't judge him the way you'd judge him if he'd done the same thing against Calvin Johnson. It makes no sense.


And Thurmond has done this against Calvin? The Thurmond love has really gone way too far and I'm not even sure where it came from. Dude is an alright player that is getting pimped up as a guy we HAVE to stash away because his talents as a corner are too good to pass up. That isn't the case at all. He's an above average corner at best at this point in his career and that's pretty much what Maxwell is bringing at the end of the day.

AS FAR AS THE OP IS CONCERNED, Maxwell makes a helluva lot more sense than Thurmond does to make this team. As a depth CB, Maxwell is almost ideal.

Quote:
Quote:
So, in a thread about who will make the roster, we've essentially been arguing over the semantics of which CB has more potential? Laughing And this whole time I thought it was constructive toward the OP.
I responded to you. You made a statement. It's not my problem you chose to not actually read what I said.


I had this presumption your statement was meant to stay on the topic at hand, not divert away from it. Sorry for my misinterpretation.
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Plush


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
SoS wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
imani wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
SoS wrote:
No way does Thurmond make this team over Maxwell. Maxwell is a special teams stud and showed just as much upside at the corner spot as Thurmond.
He has not shown the upside Thurmond has, that's ridiculous.


I have to side with Tats here, I haven't seen anything to support that comment I remember Thurmond covering fitzgerald VERY well for a rookie two years ago. I remember him being pretty solid every time he touched the field healthy as a corner. Maxwell's impact on the field has been limited to ST to this point. I might agree that Maxwell would be better for this team as a #5, due to his ability in between possessions.....but i draw the line there


Maxwell was a top 15 rated metric CB in the multiple games he gave us this past season, which is something Walter Thurmond has NEVER done as a perimeter defender. Maxwell's special teams ability alone will give him the roster spot, but this forum seriously overrates Thurmond. Especially considering this is a player coming off yet another injury.
no. Really just no. Thurmond is a better CB. Injuries are a separate issue and obviously one that will be made in deciding who stays. However if Pete and John were to purely pick the best CB, it would be Thurmond.

Maxwell never even started except MAYBE the 49ers game


You don't need to start to show you can perform. Don't know how that line of logic works. Maxwell may not have started the Buffalo game (I don't remember to be honest) but I do remember finding that he had top 10 CB metrics for that week alone and that's the game that really put him on the map as a guy that could step up and perform in this league if called upon.

And sorry, but when we're talking about the 5th or 6th corner on the team, we're not just talking about "purely pick the best CB", you're looking for the guy that can do the most for your team. As of now, we know Maxwell can be a dynamite gunner on special teams whereas Thurmond offers little in the way of return help and essentially nothing on kickoff/punt duties from what I can remember.


this is essentially what i said earlier in the quote tree....

I'm just not gonna fall for the CB metrics in a small sample size as the end-all in this discussion. If we need a #2/#1 corner to be replaced in a pinch, you know who gets called from the bench first? A healthy thurmond.

Recall a CB with top 5 metrics in Derek Cox and the hype surrounding him by Jags fans. Where is he now, just a season removed? Point being, you can't deny that metrics showcase good CB play, but can also be flimsy in the long haul. That list can be noticeably different year in and out. The top 15 metrics isn't going to start Byron over browner now is it? It doesn't make him better than thurmond overall either. Just means he's played well in short stints and limited time


You won't taken CB metrics, something tangible and subjective, but you will try to use your own objective opinion on Thurmond's play as the barometer for this discussion. And guess what, if we have a #1 or #2 guy go down, Jeremy Lane and Tharold Simon are two OTHER candidates that could step in and bring a high level of play (presumably with Simon, just based off my judgment).

And as far as Derek Cox is concerned, I don't see your point. He actually was a very good CB for the Jaguars but injuries cost him a chance to be great, similar to Thurmond I suppose. And guess what....the Jags let him go. No coincidence there. Teams don't keep injury prone players just because they're talented. I think you just brought up a player that goes against what you're trying to say.


Everyone seems to have agreed with you on the depth chart spot. But you're stressing the cb metrics a little much dude. I doubt it's something the coaches are really looking at when it comes to PT. We've seen better play out of Thurmond against better talent, not sure what the argument is here.

Seems like everyone is agreeing from different angles
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SoS


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As of right now any team in the NFL with both guys healthy would start Thurmond. In his limited time due to injury he's shown to be a starting caliber talent.

Byron has played well in even LESS playing time but being alot more special teams contribution with the potential to have starting upside.

Due to health and special teams I think Byron is kept over Thurmond. On CB ability alone, there isnt a team in the NFL that takes Byron over WT3
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirensong wrote:
As of right now any team in the NFL with both guys healthy would start Thurmond. In his limited time due to injury he's shown to be a starting caliber talent.

Byron has played well in even LESS playing time but being alot more special teams contribution with the potential to have starting upside.

Due to health and special teams I think Byron is kept over Thurmond. On CB ability alone, there isnt a team in the NFL that takes Byron over WT3


This.
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