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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a2piece89 wrote:
We lucked out, praise The Lord. I think Phillip and Chris Thompson are the two that will outshine their draft status the most. Keenan Allen or not I'm good. Hanky is abt to take off.

Sept 9th
"Can't wait!"
fantasy projections are this is Hanks year to take off. I hope so
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have material on all three DBs the redskins drafted and while all have limitations or room for improvement, their scouting reports are promising. Here's where the team was; these breakdowns on the back end were the result of poor recognition, poor scheme & blown assignments. When Haslett went to more man coverage, attempted to disguise their coverages better & blitzing with greater frequency there was considerable improvement. This first article is dated December '12:

Quote:
"We've started to see the Redskins transition to more man coverage schemes [and disguises], which allows them to send more exotic blitzes." http://www.hogshaven.com/2012/12/19/3785062/all-22-film-breakdown-rob-jacksons-interception


This next excerpt is from a preview of their playoff game vs Seattle:

Quote:
"To start the year, the Redskins played a lot of zone coverage, managed very little pass rush and got picked apart. During this seven-game win-streak, they've switched to more man coverage and run a few more creative blitzes with stunts and have seen much more success." http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/1/4/3837478/seahawks-vs-redskins-know-your-enemy


Even though the above material was found at different websites, the source for both may be the same. Meaning, the second source is a Seahawk site interviewing an insider from hogshaven.com. You can certainly find material that places in question, the cover skills of last year's group & I think that's an accurate assessment. My point is that they weren't nearly as bad as they appeared early on & the fact is, they did improve. Related is the team's cap situation. De' Hall was grossly overpaid and, as is the case with Santana Moss, London Fletcher, Reed Doughty, Rex Grossman & others, their market value was or would've been proven to be negligible!

Had the team swallowed that pill last year & finally gotten rid of this core group of leftovers from the former culture, they would've had the $18M to address the secondary or perhaps the pass rush during FA! The unit also has Richard Crawford, E.J. Biggers, Jordan BOOMstine & Chase Minnifield who collectively, also offer some promise. With respect to Fletcher, I was really surprised he wasn't pulled more in obvious pass situations in favor of Keenan Robinson. Here's a kid who could be their modern day Monte Coleman. A guy who can cover, blitz, mirror elusive QBs & give you excellent lateral pursuit. He's not a sift through the trash headbanger. Just doesn't possess the temperament & is more of a lasso, rodeo-type tackler. Although when I watched him there were times he'd bring it, mix it up & lower he boom! Still, if they drafted him to be that, I have no idea what they were seeing.

Again, even though it could be argued that the team didn't get an impact player, I think the team drafted well. Combining what they had & what they've added, this unit has people who can cover or as others have noted, guys who are good at tracking the football.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
I have material on all three DBs the redskins drafted and while all have limitations or room for improvement, their scouting reports are promising. Here's where the team was; these breakdowns on the back end were the result of poor recognition, poor scheme & blown assignments. When Haslett went to more man coverage, attempted to disguise their coverages better & blitzing with greater frequency there was considerable improvement. This first article is dated December '12:

Quote:
"We've started to see the Redskins transition to more man coverage schemes [and disguises], which allows them to send more exotic blitzes." http://www.hogshaven.com/2012/12/19/3785062/all-22-film-breakdown-rob-jacksons-interception


This next excerpt is from a preview of their playoff game vs Seattle:

Quote:
"To start the year, the Redskins played a lot of zone coverage, managed very little pass rush and got picked apart. During this seven-game win-streak, they've switched to more man coverage and run a few more creative blitzes with stunts and have seen much more success." http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/1/4/3837478/seahawks-vs-redskins-know-your-enemy


Even though the above material was found at different websites, the source for both may be the same. Meaning, the second source is a Seahawk site interviewing an insider from hogshaven.com. You can certainly find material that places in question, the cover skills of last year's group & I think that's an accurate assessment. My point is that they weren't nearly as bad as they appeared early on & the fact is, they did improve. Related is the team's cap situation. De' Hall was grossly overpaid and, as is the case with Santana Moss, London Fletcher, Reed Doughty, Rex Grossman & others, their market value was or would've been proven to be negligible!

Had the team swallowed that pill last year & finally gotten rid of this core group of leftovers from the former culture, they would've had the $18M to address the secondary or perhaps the pass rush during FA! The unit also has Richard Crawford, E.J. Biggers, Jordan BOOMstine & Chase Minnifield who collectively, also offer some promise. With respect to Fletcher, I was really surprised he wasn't pulled more in obvious pass situations in favor of Keenan Robinson. Here's a kid who could be their modern day Monte Coleman. A guy who can cover, blitz, mirror elusive QBs & give you excellent lateral pursuit. He's not a sift through the trash headbanger. Just doesn't possess the temperament & is more of a lasso, rodeo-type tackler. Although when I watched him there were times he'd bring it, mix it up & lower he boom! Still, if they drafted him to be that, I have no idea what they were seeing.

Again, even though it could be argued that the team didn't get an impact player, I think the team drafted well. Combining what they had & what they've added, this unit has people who can cover or as others have noted, guys who are good at tracking the football.
the problem with this theory is:

1. salary cap ramifications for releasing these vets too early

2. every position group needs a leader. You cut out these guys and it affects the new rookie qbs because they don't have the vet in Grossman last year who knows the offense like the coaches and has played in the offense for 4 years.

3. You get rid of Moss, not only are you taking away his team leading 7 touchdowns!! You are also taking away the leader of the wr group who's been on the team for 7 years but also knows the passing offense better than his 1st year wr coach.

4. London fletcher and Reed Doughty are coaches on the field, that's why they remain on the team. They are all team leaders and captains, you just can't replace that team leadership and leaders in the lockeroom that easily. If we don't have them, I don't think we make the playoffs last year and Moss took a significant pay cut to stay this year, as did DHall.

All those guys in the next paragraph are huge, huge question marks. We have enough with rg3.

Richard Crawford: had one good game all year. Needs a lot of development

E.J. Biggers: could be good, but has been inconsistent, can't be trusted to be a starter

Jordan BOOMstine & Chase Minnifield: neither have played a down of defense in a regular season nfl game. Both are coming as serious knee injuries, on in Bernstine's case a more serious knee injury than rg3

Keenan Robinson : tore his pec. Same injury that kept Rak out all year long. He's shown potential to be better vs the pass tat Fletch and Riley, but not against the Run. Also fletcher played on an ankle lat year that it was reported few other players in he nfl would have played on, that's why Fletch had offseason surgery. If Fletch is more healthy he will be better. The defense turned around after the bye week when we did the things you reported and Fletch/Hall got two weeks of rest on their ankles.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote: "The problem with this theory is:
[The] salary cap ramifications for releasing these vets too early...You get rid of Moss, not only are you taking away his team leading 7 touchdowns! You are also taking away the leader of the wr group... London fletcher and Reed Doughty are coaches on the field, that's why they remain on the team. They are all team leaders and captains, you just can't replace that team leadership and leaders in the lockeroom that easily. ... All those guys in the next paragraph are huge, huge question marks."


Last year I definitely thought Chris Cooley was being kept due to his contract, but my understanding was that both Moss & Hall could've been released last year with a net gain for cap space. I've emphasized the date in the urls so you can see when each article was written. These first four are listed in chronological order & pertain to Santana Moss:

Quote:
"Moss is at least moderately productive, and the team can release him in 2013 with only a $2.16 million cap hit (as opposed to his cap number of $6.3 million)." http://fanspeak.com/washingtonredskins/2012/01/19/where-the-redskins-stand-with-their-salary-cap/

Quote:
"Per Campbell, the Redskins would save $1.3 million if they released Moss before June 1, and $2.83 million if they released Moss with the post-June 1 designation." http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/14/santana-moss-might-want-to-start-packing-his-bags/

Quote:
"... both have detractors, who argue they are not worth their heavy cap numbers whether the Redskins [are] in Cap-a-geddon or not. ...The question being, is it worth holding on to a player like Moss at that large of a cap hit when wide receiver is arguably the deepest position group on the team?" http://sonofwashington.com/2013/03/05/is-santana-out-in-dc/

Quote:
"The Redskins could have saved $4.5 million in salary cap space [in '13] by releasing veteran receiver Santana Moss last week. Moss instead agreed to a paycut that saved the Redskins $2 million, according to two reports." http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/redskins-watch/2013/mar/20/santana-moss-production-conditioning-2012-prompted/#ixzz2T5UKIdnP


Unfortunately, the literature is all over the place. But what seems consistent here is that when you combine both 2012 & what Moss was originally scheduled to make this year, the team would've saved somewhere between $6-8M. Below is material pertaining to De' Hall:

Quote:
"DeAngelo Hall, $6.2 million-390k = $5.8 million net gain. [2012]" http://www.thewarpath.net/salary-cap-central/46261-redskins-2012-salary-cap-status-11.html

Quote:
"Hall has 3 years left on a terrible contract that the Redskins can get out of whenever they’d like, with a relatively miniscule cap hit.  By cutting him, they could have freed up money to go out and find themselves a new, better CB.  In short, the Redskins had an opportunity to upgrade the position while also shaving some money off the cap. They chose not to seize that opportunity." http://bloggingthebeast.com/2012/04/02/why-are-the-redskins-content-to-continue-to-overpay-deangelo-hall/

Quote:
"Hall is part of the reason the Redskins are in this mess, but the good news is cutting or trading Hall, will save the Redskins $6.2 million this year and $8 million next year." http://fanspeak.com/washingtonredskins/2012/03/13/how-the-redskins-can-add-talent-in-free-agency/


So accordingly, Hall is somebody they could've gotten rid of last year. That last article is incorrect or dated because Hall was cut & then resigned. You say that E.J. Biggers is a huge question mark, yet according to several sources the team is paying him more than they're paying De' Hall. This is interesting here, Hall & Moss rank among the team's worst "performance based value" players.

Quote:
"Hall is a high risk, high reward cornerback. He allowed 1,045 passing yards this year, the second-most for all cornerbacks, which is a huge concern. [2012 Cap Hit: $6.5m - Performance Based Value: $1.9m] Santana Moss, WR – Cap: $4.7m, PBV: $1.4m..." https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/03/01/performance-based-value-washington-redskins/


OMG, these two leftovers ended up grossly overpaid for 2012? I'm shocked! Here's what keeps reoccurring with these leftovers; when Cooley was forced to market his value proved to be zero! When London Fletcher was forced to market his value proved to be zero! When De' Hall was forced to market, his value proved to be zero! When Moss was unrestricted during the lockout in 2011, he expressed wanting to return to Washington & even stated what sort of terms he expected, which is exactly what he got. The day after the lockout ended on July 25th, he resigned with the Redskins. He had just come off a career year but had no interest whatsoever in determining his market value. One could attribute this to his commitment to the team. Odd that just a season later, in early 2012, Shanahan was telling both Moss & Cooley that they needed to come to camp in much better shape! Fact is, Moss could not have ever been the primary, Z-slot rec'r for any other team! Only on this team could he continue to be afforded such a privilege.

I'm sure you're aware of the countless articles written about the former, country club culture of failure under Snyder & Cerrato. Tell me, do you think the fish at the top of the food chain were the exception? They're not generally the players setting the tone, establishing the excepted level of accountability? You know, the players with the mega contracts & signing bonuses. It somehow makes sense that this culture permeated up from the guys at the bottom, the newbies, no big bonuses & nothing guaranteed? Disinterested or uncommitted players the organization in no way had to tolerate. Somehow, they were the ones poisoning the locker room? That is so not how things work. Were there any exceptions? I'd say Brian Orakpo for sure & perhaps Fred Davis.

I'm afraid I don't see Moss or any of the others, in the same in the same light as you do. You cite his numbers but every team's Z-slot rec'r is targeted with greater frequency & production naturally comes with that. Consider this, Pierre Garcon missed much of the first half of the season. At the bye week he had just 8 receptions. When he returned the team won seven straight! Of the games he played in, the team's record was 9-1. These guys you defend are not leaders, Fletcher & Doughty aren't even good players. Perhaps there is uncertainty with some of the younger players, but these two, in fact all four, are PROVEN question marks! As for an explanation as to why this group still remains, my guess is that these are guys Snyder wants kept.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a conspiracy theory you have to me... Wink

They couldn't be released last year, we couldn't do it financially. That's a fact and its better to hold onto the veterans you know than to go with the veterans you don't especially when brining in a rookie qb.

You are picking apart our first division winning team in 13 years buddy. Laughing umm yeah, I think we needed those veterans last year to win the division both on the field and in the lockeroom and I believe we need their presence this year, minus possibly Hall who doesn't seem much of a leader on the field.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I backed up everything I said with evidence, you chose to ignore it! The team did not have to keep those guys! Further, their near the TOP pay to production ratio was at the BOTTOM! On top of that, every other GM & coaching staff agrees with who, you? No, they in fact don't! None of these players that you consider worth their weight in gold are worth anything on the market to any other team! You place faith in whatever you want, that's fine. I'll go with facts & results!
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Geronimo


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
Fletcher & Doughty aren't even good players.


Fletcher is so bad that he played for weeks without practicing because of an injury and went to the Pro Bowl.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
No, I backed up everything I said with evidence, you chose to ignore it! The team did not have to keep those guys! Further, their near the TOP pay to production ratio was at the BOTTOM! On top of that, every other GM & coaching staff agrees with who, you? No, they in fact don't! None of these players that you consider worth their weight in gold are worth anything on the market to any other team! You place faith in whatever you want, that's fine. I'll go with facts & results!
you're still overlooking why those players were kept.

They are all team leaders in their position groups, not easily replaced. Fletcher is one of the best leaders in the entire NFL, you can't put a $$ sign on leadership and leaders who can control the locker room and who are good examples for the young players.

Santana Moss was re-signed after his 2nd or 3rd best season in the NFL when he was playing in his 1st year in the Shanahan offense and there weren't better options for his cost and veteran leadership provided for our young wrs. Releasing him last year and even this year cost money against the cap. Also, for his price he does have good production. In 2011 he got hurt. If he hadn't been hurt in 2011, I believe his stats would have been near doubled despite Rex and Beck being his qbs. He was kept last year because he was a veteran and with a new WR coach, all the young wrs and new wrs we brought in, we needed him to help teach the offense and he also led this team in td receptions with 8 last season.

Fletcher has been talked about at length and I agree with the post by Geronimo. Fletcher can do better if he stays healthy and he would have been better if healthy last year. Both he and Moss was a key cogs in our serge tot he playoffs last season. They made big plays.

You're way off base IMO on your thoughts here. Good veterans are not easily replaced on a young team. The veterans we have we're needed for last years 2013 division winning team.- And that's the final result that matters!
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.redskins.com/news-and-events/article-1/Banks-Phillip-Thomas-Can-Win-Starting-Job/0a893635-b2e4-4acd-a1c3-84e5a8928eda

Phillip Thomas can win the starting job

In his last mock draft Sports Illustrated's Don Banks had the Redskins selecting Phillip Thomas at No. 51, so when we got him two rounds later, like most of us, he believes Thomas was a steal at that point. He sees a Thomas as a definite starter in the future. Banks thinks Thomas will be playmaker immediately and can of find an immediate starting job in the Redskins' secondary.

Quote:
"I actually thought he was a second or at worst third-round guy," Banks told Redskins.com. "He’s a guy that could very easily surface as a starter at some point early in the season.

"I thought he was a solid second round type guy, and I saw a number of other people who kind of agreed."

"Interestingly enough, Amerson was also a guy I considered for the Redskins," Banks said after the draft. "He seemed to be rated in that neighborhood where their pick was going to happen at 51.

"I thought they went in with realistic expectations for this draft, obviously the secondary was priority number one. I went with Thomas just because I thought the safety position was a larger position of need."

"Yeah, I think thats in the realm of possibility and I think the front office is thinking the same thing," Banks said. "Now you never know how some guys are going to assimilate into the league. Some guys seem to never miss a beat, they seem to pick up the speed of the game and the increased mental responsibility level".

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Woz


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
Related is the team's cap situation. De' Hall was grossly overpaid and, as is the case with Santana Moss, London Fletcher, Reed Doughty, Rex Grossman & others, their market value was or would've been proven to be negligible!


I sort of got where you were going in the first part of your message, but I missed how you got to this part.

Reed Doughty - 3 years/$4.125M, no signing bonus, $500K roster bonus paid back in 2011 when he signed the new deal.
Rex Grossman - signed one year deal in both 2012 and 2013 for league minimum for a vet of his experience; per CBA, that translated into ~$550K cap hit

So, two of the guys you cite, were minor bit players in terms of the cap. Grossman wasn't part of the old regime either; he was brought in under Shanahan.

Quote:
Had the team swallowed that pill last year & finally gotten rid of this core group of leftovers from the former culture, they would've had the $18M to address the secondary or perhaps the pass rush during FA! The unit also has Richard Crawford, E.J. Biggers, Jordan BOOMstine & Chase Minnifield who collectively, also offer some promise.


I feel like you're arguing two things here: we should have terminated those contracts last year, because look who we have this year. Remember, Biggers wasn't signed until this past March. Minnifield was on IR, and Bernstine blew out his knee in Week One of last year.

Had we cut Hall prior to the start of last year, we would have had Josh Wilson and Cedric Griffin as our starting corners for most of last year with only Crawford and Jerome Murphy as backups. Okay, sure we could have pulled someone in off the street, but are you honestly saying that a street FA would be better than Hall?

Quote:
With respect to Fletcher, I was really surprised he wasn't pulled more in obvious pass situations in favor of Keenan Robinson. Here's a kid who could be their modern day Monte Coleman. A guy who can cover, blitz, mirror elusive QBs & give you excellent lateral pursuit. He's not a sift through the trash headbanger. Just doesn't possess the temperament & is more of a lasso, rodeo-type tackler. Although when I watched him there were times he'd bring it, mix it up & lower he boom! Still, if they drafted him to be that, I have no idea what they were seeing.


Ignoring the fact that Robinson got hurt, Fletcher brings a stability to the defense as the field general. He calls in the plays but also adjusts because he has that experience, something Robinson didn't have.

I like Robinson, but I'd rather my field general be someone who isn't wet behind the ears.

Did we overpay Fletcher? Perhaps. But I think his locker room presence (remember, he was sat down next to RG3 for guidance purposes) and his on field experience made up for it.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
Last year I definitely thought Chris Cooley was being kept due to his contract, but my understanding was that both Moss & Hall could've been released last year with a net gain for cap space. I've emphasized the date in the urls so you can see when each article was written. These first four are listed in chronological order & pertain to Santana Moss:


Hall, yes, Moss, would have been a slight cap hit.

Quote:
Quote:
"Moss is at least moderately productive, and the team can release him in 2013 with only a $2.16 million cap hit (as opposed to his cap number of $6.3 million)." http://fanspeak.com/washingtonredskins/2012/01/19/where-the-redskins-stand-with-their-salary-cap/

Quote:
"Per Campbell, the Redskins would save $1.3 million if they released Moss before June 1, and $2.83 million if they released Moss with the post-June 1 designation." http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/14/santana-moss-might-want-to-start-packing-his-bags/

Quote:
"... both have detractors, who argue they are not worth their heavy cap numbers whether the Redskins [are] in Cap-a-geddon or not. ...The question being, is it worth holding on to a player like Moss at that large of a cap hit when wide receiver is arguably the deepest position group on the team?" http://sonofwashington.com/2013/03/05/is-santana-out-in-dc/

Quote:
"The Redskins could have saved $4.5 million in salary cap space [in '13] by releasing veteran receiver Santana Moss last week. Moss instead agreed to a paycut that saved the Redskins $2 million, according to two reports." http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/redskins-watch/2013/mar/20/santana-moss-production-conditioning-2012-prompted/#ixzz2T5UKIdnP


Unfortunately, the literature is all over the place. But what seems consistent here is that when you combine both 2012 & what Moss was originally scheduled to make this year, the team would've saved somewhere between $6-8M.


Except you ignored the last linked article there where Moss cut $2M from his salary. He also took another $2M pay cut this year.

Again, let's say they did this: what would have happened when Garcon went down in week one? Would the passing game have really been effective with Banks, Briscoe, Hankerson, Morgan, and Robinson? Davis was mildly useful, but not spectacular.

Quote:
So accordingly, Hall is somebody they could've gotten rid of last year.


Yes, probably. But the team liked him enough to bring him back once his cap number was significantly smaller. So it's not like he didn't bring any value.

Quote:
You say that E.J. Biggers is a huge question mark, yet according to several sources the team is paying him more than they're paying De' Hall. This is interesting here, Hall & Moss rank among the team's worst "performance based value" players.

Quote:
"Hall is a high risk, high reward cornerback. He allowed 1,045 passing yards this year, the second-most for all cornerbacks, which is a huge concern. [2012 Cap Hit: $6.5m - Performance Based Value: $1.9m] Santana Moss, WR – Cap: $4.7m, PBV: $1.4m..." https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/03/01/performance-based-value-washington-redskins/


On DeAngelo Hall, that article is based on out of date data. He's now at a one year deal worth $1.25M so he's below his PBV.

You also didn't point out that Pierre Garcon was 8th on the overvalued list, or that the PBV is a Pro Football Focus metric that isn't explained in how they come up with the number beyond a very generalized description here: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/02/25/performance-based-value/

Quote:
OMG, these two leftovers ended up grossly overpaid for 2012? I'm shocked! Here's what keeps reoccurring with these leftovers; when Cooley was forced to market his value proved to be zero! When London Fletcher was forced to market his value proved to be zero! When De' Hall was forced to market, his value proved to be zero! When Moss was unrestricted during the lockout in 2011, he expressed wanting to return to Washington & even stated what sort of terms he expected, which is exactly what he got. The day after the lockout ended on July 25th, he resigned with the Redskins. He had just come off a career year but had no interest whatsoever in determining his market value. One could attribute this to his commitment to the team. Odd that just a season later, in early 2012, Shanahan was telling both Moss & Cooley that they needed to come to camp in much better shape! Fact is, Moss could not have ever been the primary, Z-slot rec'r for any other team! Only on this team could he continue to be afforded such a privilege.


Funny thing about the guys you describe: both Moss and Fletcher got new contracts from the current front office. They weren't holdovers but kept players. Hall's contract is why we got thwacked by the league, but they didn't release him until they thought his play necessitated it. They then re-signed him for cheap. Only Cooley was left untouched and then had his contract terminated when it was obvious he couldn't play any more.

Quote:
I'm sure you're aware of the countless articles written about the former, country club culture of failure under Snyder & Cerrato. Tell me, do you think the fish at the top of the food chain were the exception? They're not generally the players setting the tone, establishing the excepted level of accountability? You know, the players with the mega contracts & signing bonuses. It somehow makes sense that this culture permeated up from the guys at the bottom, the newbies, no big bonuses & nothing guaranteed? Disinterested or uncommitted players the organization in no way had to tolerate. Somehow, they were the ones poisoning the locker room? That is so not how things work. Were there any exceptions? I'd say Brian Orakpo for sure & perhaps Fred Davis.


There are many things we can blame Cerrato for. However, I would point out that Cerrato "resigned" on December 17, 2009. Bruce Allen was hired the same day. Allen was responsible for Hall's renegotiated contract. Allen was responsible for re-signing Fletcher and Moss. Davis was franchised under Allen (a mistake in my opinion because he is one of the cancers on the team, but you don't advocate terminating him Think).

Quote:
I'm afraid I don't see Moss or any of the others, in the same in the same light as you do. You cite his numbers but every team's Z-slot rec'r is targeted with greater frequency & production naturally comes with that. Consider this, Pierre Garcon missed much of the first half of the season. At the bye week he had just 8 receptions. When he returned the team won seven straight! Of the games he played in, the team's record was 9-1.


And yet, how many games would the Redskins won without both Garcon and Moss? Morgan's a possession guy, Hankerson was hit or miss, Robinson was an okay deep threat but not reliable, and Banks and Briscoe were pointless wastes of space.

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These guys you defend are not leaders, Fletcher & Doughty aren't even good players. Perhaps there is uncertainty with some of the younger players, but these two, in fact all four, are PROVEN question marks! As for an explanation as to why this group still remains, my guess is that these are guys Snyder wants kept.


Do you honestly think Snyder cares one whit about Reed Doughty? He's made the team year in and year out because he's a solid but unspectacular player. As for Fletcher, do you honestly think Mike Shanahan would put up with Snyder saying "yeah, you have to re-sign Fletcher?" Come on now. One thing I've seen is that just like under Gibbs, Snyder has disappeared into the shadows under Snyder. He's just signing the checks; Shanny's calling the shots.

As for them not being good players, that's a somewhat laughable assertion.
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turtle28


Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ I agree Woz and his line about them not being leaders is even more laughable!
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