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Torrey Smith drew more penalties than all Steelers combined
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wwhickok


Joined: 27 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
This wasn't just last year, but for years. At least once a season the Steelers get a huge DPI call when playing the Ravens that sets up a key Ravens score when their offense had generally been doing -. People keep talking about Flacco's great arm strength...dude throws up a prayers and hopes for a flag or his WR to make a hell of a play for the ball.

The Steelers don't get any because they have smaller WR's who don't go up and fight for footballs. I could also throw in some league conspiracy [inappropriate/removed], but I'll stick with the first part. Wallace doesn't usually have a DB draped on him for his deep attempts, either. He is pretty good at outrunning people.



This is truth. Frankly, if you REALLY look at the game films, the Ravens get more calls in their favor generally speaking than not, especially in 2012. The irony of that is that...it's some of the dirtiest football I've seen yet. Multiple Helmet to Helmets, some of which that came with no flag or fines. The "Non-Ejection/Non-Penalty Heard 'Round the World" ...Yea Cary Williams you know what I'm talking about.

But more than that, they are a very physical team, it's what they do, it's their game, what they lack in skill they make up for in physicality.
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Dracula58


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:

It is one of the raven's plays. Throw it deep and hope for a PI. That being said, the Steelers need to look at the Referee crew they are facing for how they call PI. If you get generous calls then throw it deep more often.

I say BS... They plays are called to succeed as designed not a prayer that PI is called. If they get a call so what don't interfere if your the DB.... Steeler fans laugh at this but would be happy if it were them.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracula58 wrote:
jebrick wrote:

It is one of the raven's plays. Throw it deep and hope for a PI. That being said, the Steelers need to look at the Referee crew they are facing for how they call PI. If you get generous calls then throw it deep more often.

I say BS... They plays are called to succeed as designed not a prayer that PI is called. If they get a call so what don't interfere if your the DB.... Steeler fans laugh at this but would be happy if it were them.


Sure we'd be happy and I'm not saying the Ravens shouldn't be, but give me a break. Several times in the playoffs and the Super Bowl Flacco threw it deep and hopes that Torrey would catch it. Granted, he did, primarily imo, because of poor coverage. IMO if he had been covered properly, Flacco wouldn't have looked so spectacular in the playoffs. There were a lot of hopes and dreams fluttering with those passes thrown.
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Dcash4


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
Dracula58 wrote:
jebrick wrote:

It is one of the raven's plays. Throw it deep and hope for a PI. That being said, the Steelers need to look at the Referee crew they are facing for how they call PI. If you get generous calls then throw it deep more often.

I say BS... They plays are called to succeed as designed not a prayer that PI is called. If they get a call so what don't interfere if your the DB.... Steeler fans laugh at this but would be happy if it were them.


Sure we'd be happy and I'm not saying the Ravens shouldn't be, but give me a break. Several times in the playoffs and the Super Bowl Flacco threw it deep and hopes that Torrey would catch it. Granted, he did, primarily imo, because of poor coverage. IMO if he had been covered properly, Flacco wouldn't have looked so spectacular in the playoffs. There were a lot of hopes and dreams fluttering with those passes thrown.


As asposed to calling a play in the huddle to throw it deep and Torrey NOT catch it?

This is what i dont get about this discussion. Like the Ravens or not, they are more likely to get these calls because of how they run their offense, and the guys they have in that offense. If you believe it is some sort of conspiracy, then fine - but im out of this thread then because that's just hating on the Ravens for being the Ravens instead of actually looking at logic and reasons for why the stats would be that way.

Do people really think their play calls are "Hey guys everyone run deep and ill chuck it up! We are bound to get a call!"

This is the NFL, not your local rec flag football league. Hell, even there people usually have a plan.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash4 wrote:
wwhickok wrote:
Dracula58 wrote:
jebrick wrote:

It is one of the raven's plays. Throw it deep and hope for a PI. That being said, the Steelers need to look at the Referee crew they are facing for how they call PI. If you get generous calls then throw it deep more often.

I say BS... They plays are called to succeed as designed not a prayer that PI is called. If they get a call so what don't interfere if your the DB.... Steeler fans laugh at this but would be happy if it were them.


Sure we'd be happy and I'm not saying the Ravens shouldn't be, but give me a break. Several times in the playoffs and the Super Bowl Flacco threw it deep and hopes that Torrey would catch it. Granted, he did, primarily imo, because of poor coverage. IMO if he had been covered properly, Flacco wouldn't have looked so spectacular in the playoffs. There were a lot of hopes and dreams fluttering with those passes thrown.


As asposed to calling a play in the huddle to throw it deep and Torrey NOT catch it?

This is what i dont get about this discussion. Like the Ravens or not, they are more likely to get these calls because of how they run their offense, and the guys they have in that offense. If you believe it is some sort of conspiracy, then fine - but im out of this thread then because that's just hating on the Ravens for being the Ravens instead of actually looking at logic and reasons for why the stats would be that way.

Do people really think their play calls are "Hey guys everyone run deep and ill chuck it up! We are bound to get a call!"

This is the NFL, not your local rec flag football league. Hell, even there people usually have a plan.


You're little explanation of the huddle completely ignores my point and twists it into something I didn't say.

OF COURSE he should expect/hope for Torrey to catch the ball. My point was that it's not like he's throwing some sort of exceptional, super accurate pass. He's throwing a ball deep with the knowledge that there are 2-3 very likely and possible results:

1. Torrey Smith Catches the ball
2. Torrey Smith doesn't catch the ball but in his physicality with the defender, benefits from a DPI call.
3. Torrey doesn't catch the ball and no flag comes out.

They're also listed in the order of most likely imo. Do I think that 'getting a call' isn't on their mind at all? No, that's naive but I don't think for a second that's their focal point. My point was simply that Flacco isn't out there threading any needles or dropping it on the edge of the back corner of the endzone to Santonio Holmes for game winners.
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Dracula58


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
Dcash4 wrote:
wwhickok wrote:
Dracula58 wrote:
jebrick wrote:

It is one of the raven's plays. Throw it deep and hope for a PI. That being said, the Steelers need to look at the Referee crew they are facing for how they call PI. If you get generous calls then throw it deep more often.

I say BS... They plays are called to succeed as designed not a prayer that PI is called. If they get a call so what don't interfere if your the DB.... Steeler fans laugh at this but would be happy if it were them.


Sure we'd be happy and I'm not saying the Ravens shouldn't be, but give me a break. Several times in the playoffs and the Super Bowl Flacco threw it deep and hopes that Torrey would catch it. Granted, he did, primarily imo, because of poor coverage. IMO if he had been covered properly, Flacco wouldn't have looked so spectacular in the playoffs. There were a lot of hopes and dreams fluttering with those passes thrown.


As asposed to calling a play in the huddle to throw it deep and Torrey NOT catch it?

This is what i dont get about this discussion. Like the Ravens or not, they are more likely to get these calls because of how they run their offense, and the guys they have in that offense. If you believe it is some sort of conspiracy, then fine - but im out of this thread then because that's just hating on the Ravens for being the Ravens instead of actually looking at logic and reasons for why the stats would be that way.

Do people really think their play calls are "Hey guys everyone run deep and ill chuck it up! We are bound to get a call!"

This is the NFL, not your local rec flag football league. Hell, even there people usually have a plan.


You're little explanation of the huddle completely ignores my point and twists it into something I didn't say.

OF COURSE he should expect/hope for Torrey to catch the ball. My point was that it's not like he's throwing some sort of exceptional, super accurate pass. He's throwing a ball deep with the knowledge that there are 2-3 very likely and possible results:

1. Torrey Smith Catches the ball
2. Torrey Smith doesn't catch the ball but in his physicality with the defender, benefits from a DPI call.
3. Torrey doesn't catch the ball and no flag comes out.

They're also listed in the order of most likely imo. Do I think that 'getting a call' isn't on their mind at all? No, that's naive but I don't think for a second that's their focal point. My point was simply that Flacco isn't out there threading any needles or dropping it on the edge of the back corner of the endzone to Santonio Holmes for game winners.
Again I say BS... Like it or not Flacco's passes deep or short IMO have been and need to be accurate... He still needs to drop the ball on Smith to give him the best Chance to make a play. Down playing his accuracy is just a poo poo attempt to down play Flacco...
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracula58 wrote:
Again I say BS... Like it or not Flacco's passes deep or short IMO have been and need to be accurate... He still needs to drop the ball on Smith to give him the best Chance to make a play. Down playing his accuracy is just a poo poo attempt to down play Flacco...


We'll agree to disagree, I didn't say he isn't an accurate QB or can't be. I'm saying the 3 or 4 'highlight reel' passes he completed in the playoffs, don't scream accuracy as much as they scream hail mary-ish and believing in Smith to make the catch. Do they require accuracy? Sure, but he can pretty much lay it up there even 'well' in front of Smith within reason, and knows or at least believes that Smith is good enough to make the catch.

But I think we've gotten a bit off track at any rate here. This thread is SUPPOSED to be about why Torrey Smith has drawn as many flags as our entire team has, not what I think or don't think high of in regards to Flacco. The simple answer to that question is the physical type of game that Smith plays.
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Dcash4


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
You're little explanation of the huddle completely ignores my point and twists it into something I didn't say.

OF COURSE he should expect/hope for Torrey to catch the ball. My point was that it's not like he's throwing some sort of exceptional, super accurate pass. He's throwing a ball deep with the knowledge that there are 2-3 very likely and possible results:

1. Torrey Smith Catches the ball
2. Torrey Smith doesn't catch the ball but in his physicality with the defender, benefits from a DPI call.
3. Torrey doesn't catch the ball and no flag comes out.

They're also listed in the order of most likely imo. Do I think that 'getting a call' isn't on their mind at all? No, that's naive but I don't think for a second that's their focal point. My point was simply that Flacco isn't out there threading any needles or dropping it on the edge of the back corner of the endzone to Santonio Holmes for game winners.


I agree with what they are hoping for by deep passes to their tall fast receivers. Those three things that you pointed out are correct, but that's not a Joe Flacco thing, thats every single quarterback at any level. Those are the things you look at .

My whole point is that this is not some sort of conspiracy, which some of the posts seem to allude towards. "The ravens throw it deep because the refs will call it". That's Bull. They throw it deep because they know from understanding in game strategy and understanding their personnel - that they can take advantage of deep 1 on 1 situations. THATS why the stats show that their guys had more penalties called against them - there is no other reason.

Their big arm quarter back understands that if his fast, big, athletic receiver (Torrey) gets a one on one situation that if he lets it fly to him the defense is at a disadvantage and percentages of good things lean in their favor. Jacoby is also big and has good speed (not real good, but capable), and Bolden was just a tank in jump ball situations. They have the horses to play the way they did.

You mentioned earlier if they had been covered correctly those passes most likely wouldn't have happened....that's every single defensive play ever. If you cover/play correctly you have a much better chance of winning your battles. The only play that really stands out to me where the defense absolutely messed up was Moore from Denver.

They did a good job of recognizing where they could take advantage of defenses, and used their personnel to win those battles.

Absolutely not saying i think that will be repeated in following seasons (I think the lost of Bolden is bigger than they think), but the way they run the offense i see no reason for complaint that they had so many penalties called on their receivers.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dcash I agree with your post, my point about him likely not catching the ball on particular throws was not that he's not capable but that it's, imo, not like a specific group of passes were super accurate, they were deep and within range, as you said, something all QBs with half a brain do, so if they would've been contended i THINK they would've been incomplete but i don't know for sure, that really isn't here nor there however, not the basis of my point at all. I agree there's no conspiracy here, do I think the refs favored them a little? Yes, I do in certain situations but I'm certainly not prepared to call Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson up and offer them my opinions in official documentation Laughing

The Ravens are a physical team with physical WR's, it's the nature of the beast.
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Dracula58


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Super Accurate" got to love that... Flacco ran a play, threw a pass that was accurate and his WR also made good plays on the ball, doing what they get paid for. I watched Flacco and I have seen him make great throws and bad throws kind of like Ben... [inappropriate/removed] happens and they all make some bad ones but if they are off a bit then the WR can earn his check... I just think it is funny to say Flacco was not " super accurate." Throwing a very long pass that needs to be in reach of a moving target while avoiding rush...

The way I see it he was just as accurate as he needed to be... The DPI is nothing more than sour grapes... Non story.
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Dracula58


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Super Accurate" got to love that... Flacco ran a play, threw a pass that was accurate and his WR also made good plays on the ball, doing what they get paid for. I watched Flacco and I have seen him make great throws and bad throws kind of like Ben... [inappropriate/removed] happens and they all make some bad ones but if they are off a bit then the WR can earn his check... I just think it is funny to say Flacco was not " super accurate." Throwing a very long pass that needs to be in reach of a moving target while avoiding rush...

The way I see it he was just as accurate as he needed to be... The DPI is nothing more than sour grapes... Non story.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracula58 wrote:
"Super Accurate" got to love that... Flacco ran a play, threw a pass that was accurate and his WR also made good plays on the ball, doing what they get paid for. I watched Flacco and I have seen him make great throws and bad throws kind of like Ben... [inappropriate/removed] happens and they all make some bad ones but if they are off a bit then the WR can earn his check... I just think it is funny to say Flacco was not " super accurate." Throwing a very long pass that needs to be in reach of a moving target while avoiding rush...

The way I see it he was just as accurate as he needed to be... The DPI is nothing more than sour grapes... Non story.


You do realize I'm talking about like 3-5 passes total right?

You can love it all you want, but the passes I'm saying he wasn't throwing with "elite" accuracy on, are a select group. Did he NEED elite accuracy? No, but that wasn't my point, my point was that perhaps there is reason to believe that tighter coverage would've resulted in failed completions.

But again, sticking to the point, Torrey Smith is a very physical and talented WR.

As far Flacco, he's talented, anyone who denies that is just naive, yes he can throw with very good accuracy and strength, he has made some reat throws and bad ones like any other QB, I agree.

But if you're leaning toward calling him elite... That's really not a conversation we should get started here, because Ben is arguably a Top 5 QB, Flacco is not.

Btw on a side note, Trent Dilfer through some pretty accurate passes in 2000 and the Ravens won the Super Bowl. He threw with just enough accuracy and strength, put the ball where it needed to be, the receivers made plays, and he has a ring to show for it. I don't see ANYONE calling Trent Dilfer a great QB. Trent Dilfer also had some lousy seasons prior to 2000... There is a comparison of sorts that could be made..just sayin'.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Absolutely not saying i think that will be repeated in following seasons (I think the lost of Bolden is bigger than they think), but the way they run the offense i see no reason for complaint that they had so many penalties called on their receivers.


I don't have a video roll of all the calls they get, but from memory a few they had in Steelers games were kind of [inappropriate/removed]. I also don't think the Ravens throw it deep all that much more than the rest of the league, or that their WR's are the best/most physical guys in the league.

People dismiss the idea of the refs being crooked so easily, I find it hard to believe. Go back and watch the Steelers/Giants game from last year and tell me the refs don't play favorites on occasion. Steelesr pretty much dominated that game physically, but found themselves in a deep whole because of a few timely calls.

Quote:
threw a pass that was accurate and his WR also made good plays on the ball,


Anytime both the DB and WR are sitting underneath a ball for a good minute waiting for the ball to come down, it is not an accurate pass. Moore misplayed that ball because it hung in the air so long. He probably psyched himself out waiting to make the play.

Quote:
gets a one on one situation that if he lets it fly to him the defense is at a disadvantage and percentages of good things lean in their favor


So, when you say that the good things that can happen lean in their favor, you are obviously including DPI in there. So, you don't think the Ravens consider this, either? They know how often they get the calls better than anyone.

You say this won't happen again next year, but its been happening for several.
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Dcash4


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:

People dismiss the idea of the refs being crooked so easily, I find it hard to believe. Go back and watch the Steelers/Giants game from last year and tell me the refs don't play favorites on occasion. Steelesr pretty much dominated that game physically, but found themselves in a deep whole because of a few timely calls.


You undertand that the NFL is a multi-BILLION dollar industry right? What do the refs have to gain from taking sides in a game? You tube, DVR, All-22....every play is exposed....what benefit to they have from throwing a game? They would be caught.

I said it before in this thread.. THERE ARE NO CONSPIRACY THEORIES. Refs make mistakes. It happens. In real time, they see things differently then you and i see in slow motion replay for the 800th time on tv.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And occasionally they uphold those mistakes even after they put their heads under the hood to watch the replays...such as in the Giants/Steelers game.

You're right, it IS a mulch-billion dollar industry. And like all such industries they like to manage and control their product's image. It's an entertainment industry that has become more driven by good story lines and big plays. Also, you know what's bigger than the NFL? Gambling. It wasn't too long ago that the NBA had their own such scandal exposed, though they were lucky to sweep it under the rug.

The NFL has spent the last decade in particular making their rules more arbitrary. More judgement calls, and increased emphasis on the old ones. I don't think games are fixed, but whenever anyone even suggests the notion people act like you're a 9/11 truther or talking about bigfoot. The NFL is a corporation. They've done plenty of other shady [inappropriate/removed].
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