Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

What would you have done?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> St. Louis Rams
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
The J.R.S.


Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 3939
Location: Next to Waldo
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

STLRamsFan99 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:

Peter King's job is to create intrigue in his articles, not to be representative of concise truth. Here's an example of what I mean, chosen from the above segment of his article.

"The lone 3x5 inch magnetic player card left on the top of the line.."

That's sensationalism, my friend. There can only be one name at the top at any given moment. To use this as evidence that they valued Ogletree vastly more than the next names in line is reaching at the least.


What type of agenda are you trying to implying he had? He wanted to give readers an insight to a war room on draft day, why fabricate/embellish a story? Fisher, Snead, or any of the Rams staff haven't denied anything in the article to my knowledge.

The J.R.S. wrote:

If you had read through what I have said on the matter, then you would have read that I think Fisher and Snead did exactly what they wanted to, and should be applauded.

If you are willing to gamble on a player being available 8 picks after you have a chance to select him, then it suggests that you have other prospects valued similarly, period. Otherwise, you wouldn't take the risk.


He was their top player on the board and they really wanted him. Your entitled to your opinion but at this point I am going to believe Snead, Fisher, and King. They gambled and didn't have a great backup plan, they just wanted to recoup lost draft picks.


I'm implying that King's agenda was to tell a good story. Like any other good story tellers, he likely embellished certain details while playing down others in order to make the story more interesting. That's what professional writers do.

You can believe Snead and Fisher, that's fine, because I'm not disagreeing with anything they've said. Here is what I actually said;

A)They had other players valued similarly to Ogletree.

B)They risked missing out on him by trading down.

C)They succeeded by getting their #1 target at pick #22 (Ogletree) at pick #30 and should be applauded.

If you want to take exception to this thinking then fine, but realize that you are relying on a sensationalized report from a member of the media, and by our front office's gloating. Are you really going to try and convince me that our front office had Ogletree on a tier of his own amongst late first round prospects, and then simultaneously risked missing out on him?
_________________


Real sports fans do not condone ESPN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The J.R.S.


Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 3939
Location: Next to Waldo
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
FRO wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
And when did I say that? I just said that they had others rated similarly.
Which is False, reported by multiple people in the draft room.

Actually on one account he was #2 right behind Tavon Austin.

And if that account is true, you don't pass on the 2 highest rated prospects on your board. Get players you love. Don't settle for depth. If you are drafting at a spot and aren't particularly in love with a prospect, then trade down from that spot.


This is exactly what I am saying. If they were in love with Ogletree, and had him rated much higher than the next few names on our big board, then we would have taken him at #22 and never looked back.


That's your assumption. An assumption that has no factual foundation.

You assume that they're afraid to take risks. I think Snead has proven that's not true.

So unless you're saying that the GM, Head Coach and journalist that were all in the draft room are wrong and you're right, I think I'm going to go with the people who aren't making assumptions. Hell, it's what I'd do(trade down...even if I rated Ogletree highly).


Yes it is an assumption, but it does have a foundation. That foundation is the actions taken by Snead and Fisher in the first round of the draft. Consider the following:

-They had planned all along to trade up for Tavon Austin, and hoped to trade down from #22. (Reports first surfaced the morning of the draft)

-They had Ogletree in their laps at #22, then traded down 8 spots.

Are you really going to try and convince me that they had Ogletree rated in a tier of his own amongst late first round prospects, yet knowingly risked missing out on him? That's asinine.

I've never assumed, let alone said in a post, that they were afraid of taking risks. I am suggesting though, that the risks they take are calculated. The only way you risk missing out on your guy at #22 is if there is a suitable plan B at pick #30.

I've never said they didn't have him as their highest rated player, only that they are exaggerating much separation there was in their minds between him and their next favorite guy.
_________________


Real sports fans do not condone ESPN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DerekBrink


Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't see how they are exaggerating and how you've come to this conclusion.

You've literally provided no evidence to support this conclusion whatsoever.

They wanted to recoup the picks they lost trading up for Austin and they thought they could do so and still get Ogletree.

It's that simple imo. It's not about them liking other players nearly as much. It was the fact they could get multiple players and still hope to land Ogletree.

Btw anyone questioning this move hasn't seen Ogletree play. The guy has so much ability it's scary. With so many running QB's now having a guy like Ogletree is going to be huge.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 48665
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The J.R.S. wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
FRO wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
And when did I say that? I just said that they had others rated similarly.
Which is False, reported by multiple people in the draft room.

Actually on one account he was #2 right behind Tavon Austin.

And if that account is true, you don't pass on the 2 highest rated prospects on your board. Get players you love. Don't settle for depth. If you are drafting at a spot and aren't particularly in love with a prospect, then trade down from that spot.


This is exactly what I am saying. If they were in love with Ogletree, and had him rated much higher than the next few names on our big board, then we would have taken him at #22 and never looked back.


That's your assumption. An assumption that has no factual foundation.

You assume that they're afraid to take risks. I think Snead has proven that's not true.

So unless you're saying that the GM, Head Coach and journalist that were all in the draft room are wrong and you're right, I think I'm going to go with the people who aren't making assumptions. Hell, it's what I'd do(trade down...even if I rated Ogletree highly).


Yes it is an assumption, but it does have a foundation. That foundation is the actions taken by Snead and Fisher in the first round of the draft. Consider the following:

-They had planned all along to trade up for Tavon Austin, and hoped to trade down from #22. (Reports first surfaced the morning of the draft)

-They had Ogletree in their laps at #22, then traded down 8 spots.

Are you really going to try and convince me that they had Ogletree rated in a tier of his own amongst late first round prospects, yet knowingly risked missing out on him? That's asinine.

I've never assumed, let alone said in a post, that they were afraid of taking risks. I am suggesting though, that the risks they take are calculated. The only way you risk missing out on your guy at #22 is if there is a suitable plan B at pick #30.

I've never said they didn't have him as their highest rated player, only that they are exaggerating much separation there was in their minds between him and their next favorite guy.


Unless you assess the teams picking after you, don't see a threat and want to make sure you get some picks back after trading up. The only team that seemed to be a threat to take him was Denver.

You're making an assumption here and then telling people they're crazy to believe what the guys who were in the draft room are saying.
_________________
The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The J.R.S.


Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 3939
Location: Next to Waldo
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
FRO wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
The J.R.S. wrote:
And when did I say that? I just said that they had others rated similarly.
Which is False, reported by multiple people in the draft room.

Actually on one account he was #2 right behind Tavon Austin.

And if that account is true, you don't pass on the 2 highest rated prospects on your board. Get players you love. Don't settle for depth. If you are drafting at a spot and aren't particularly in love with a prospect, then trade down from that spot.


This is exactly what I am saying. If they were in love with Ogletree, and had him rated much higher than the next few names on our big board, then we would have taken him at #22 and never looked back.


That's your assumption. An assumption that has no factual foundation.

You assume that they're afraid to take risks. I think Snead has proven that's not true.

So unless you're saying that the GM, Head Coach and journalist that were all in the draft room are wrong and you're right, I think I'm going to go with the people who aren't making assumptions. Hell, it's what I'd do(trade down...even if I rated Ogletree highly).


Yes it is an assumption, but it does have a foundation. That foundation is the actions taken by Snead and Fisher in the first round of the draft. Consider the following:

-They had planned all along to trade up for Tavon Austin, and hoped to trade down from #22. (Reports first surfaced the morning of the draft)

-They had Ogletree in their laps at #22, then traded down 8 spots.

Are you really going to try and convince me that they had Ogletree rated in a tier of his own amongst late first round prospects, yet knowingly risked missing out on him? That's asinine.

I've never assumed, let alone said in a post, that they were afraid of taking risks. I am suggesting though, that the risks they take are calculated. The only way you risk missing out on your guy at #22 is if there is a suitable plan B at pick #30.

I've never said they didn't have him as their highest rated player, only that they are exaggerating much separation there was in their minds between him and their next favorite guy.


Unless you assess the teams picking after you, don't see a threat and want to make sure you get some picks back after trading up. The only team that seemed to be a threat to take him was Denver.

You're making an assumption here and then telling people they're crazy to believe what the guys who were in the draft room are saying.


No I'm not. I believe that Ogletree was their highest ranked player at pick #30. I'm not even saying it was a bad choice. You don't risk missing out on your guy unless plans B,C, etc. are desirable.

Not only were Denver and Minnesota viewed as risks to take him, but if our front office believed he was heads and tails above the competition, then you have to worry about another team trading up for him also. We'll never know with 100% certainty how they felt about Ogletree as compared to other prospects. The only thing we know with certainty is that they were willing to risk missing out on him by trading down.
_________________


Real sports fans do not condone ESPN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The J.R.S.


Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 3939
Location: Next to Waldo
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DerekBrink wrote:
don't see how they are exaggerating and how you've come to this conclusion.

You've literally provided no evidence to support this conclusion whatsoever.

They wanted to recoup the picks they lost trading up for Austin and they thought they could do so and still get Ogletree.

It's that simple imo. It's not about them liking other players nearly as much. It was the fact they could get multiple players and still hope to land Ogletree.

Btw anyone questioning this move hasn't seen Ogletree play. The guy has so much ability it's scary. With so many running QB's now having a guy like Ogletree is going to be huge.


Who is "they"?

The evidence is clcear; they risked missing out on Ogletree in order to gain more picks. So acording to you a conversation like this would have taken place:

Fisher-"Our top player at #22 is Ogletree, and there is no one else that is even close."

Snead-"Okay, then let's trade down and hope we don't get left with an inferior prospect."

Fisher-"Well, there are two teams that may be interested that pick before #30, and a team could always trade up. There is no one else in this guys tier."

Snead-"Oh well, if we miss out on our guy, I'm Les Snead and I don't give a damn."

There is a serious disconnect in this conversation. Do you see it? At what point did they weigh the value of their contingency plan? Either they did, and were happy to settle for a similarly valued prospect, or they threw caution to the wind and risked missing out on the only guy they thought was worth pick #30. Which one seems more realistic to you?
_________________


Real sports fans do not condone ESPN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
StLunatic88


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 7747
Location: How good is your Good?
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way you are trying to simplify this situation is astonishing.

If you cant see that the move down was calculated, that they did a ton of homework and (for all intents and purposes) Knew where they could still get them, then there is no point in continuing this. The deal with the Falcons was on the table for weeks leading up to the draft, so they were already looking at where they could calculate to get Ogletree.

Since you are somehow taking their apprehension to move from 22 instead of taking AO as some sort of knock on how they valued him, we will go with this. Your premise that he was just at the top of the next group of prospects, which they would have been fine with getting any one of, is proven false by them shooting down a trade back to #32, just 2 spots and they could have picked up another depth draft pick. Or move down for that mega package with Minnesota... Hoe come they didnt take those deals if they were "fine" with missing out of Ogletree?

You are out on an island here making no sense at all


Last edited by StLunatic88 on Tue May 14, 2013 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 48665
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's making sense. It's just that he's trying to rationalize something that's not necessarily rational.
_________________
The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FRO


Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 1165
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last year in the second round the Rams had the choice of drafting Kendricks or Wagner. They really liked both players but they had an offer to move down. They thought they could move down and one of Kendricks or Wagner would be there. They played poker. They lost. Both guys were selected before they picked.

In this most recent draft Ogletree was their guy. They felt with his character concerns that there was a good chance he would slide to them. They played poker. This time they won. King stated that the fall back option was Jones, who got picked by Green Bay, or trade down again and get Larry Warford. So they did have a contingency plan in place, but make no mistake Ogletree was they guy they absolutely coveted. This regime takes risks. They aren't afraid to make a move.

One last thing, how awesome of a feeling must it be to perfectly execute your draft plan in the first round? They got the 2 guys they wanted most. I think our first round was a grand slam. Can't wait to watch these guys play.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The J.R.S.


Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 3939
Location: Next to Waldo
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
The way you are trying to simplify this situation is astonishing.

If you cant see that the move down was calculated, that they did a ton of homework and (for all intents and purposes) Knew where they could still get them, then there is no point in continuing this. The deal with the Falcons was on the table for weeks leading up to the draft, so they were already looking at where they could calculate to get Ogletree.

Since you are somehow taking their apprehension to move from 22 instead of taking AO as some sort of knock on how they valued him, we will go with this. Your premise that he was just at the top of the next group of prospects, which they would have been fine with getting any one of, is proven false by them shooting down a trade back to #32, just 2 spots and they could have picked up another depth draft pick. Or move down for that mega package with Minnesota... Hoe come they didnt take those deals if they were "fine" with missing out of Ogletree?

You are out on an island here making no sense at all


I've already given them props for being successful in their management of the draft. What I took away from their actions during the 2013 draft is that they had alternatives to draft at #30 that were comparable in value to Ogletree. That is, according to their big board.
_________________


Real sports fans do not condone ESPN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> St. Louis Rams All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Page 4 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group