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Texans First round picks

 
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Biggest Draft Bust In Texans History
David Carr
18%
 18%  [ 3 ]
Travis Johnson
68%
 68%  [ 11 ]
Amobi Okoye
12%
 12%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 16

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Pastor Dillon


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: Mountain Home, Arkansas
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Texans First round picks Reply with quote

I was just reading an Article that said that all but 2 of the Texans 12 first round picks have started at least 14 games as a rookie. The two that didnt were Travis Johnson and Whitney Mercilus

Does that mean we draft well or we have just been so bad for so long that rookies have had to start. we have a pretty good track record on 1st round picks

Daivd Carr - I still believe he would have been a franchise QB that the texans ruined by fielding a joke offensive line, and just bad coaching. By the time we got a coach that can develop QBs Carr was ruined

Andre Johnson - If he remains healthy i dont see any way he isnt top 10 all time in yards and catches, a steal even at #3 overall

Dunta Robinson - Was a dominate player as a rookie and while his ego grew bigger than his play, his play was always solid and he remains maybe not a great player, but a very solid starter

Jason Babin - Another guy who proved later on that while he seemed like a bust to the Texans, he was a worthy first round pick, he just wasnt a fit as an OLB, but as he showed in his pro bowl seasons post texans he was a very good player

Travis Johnson - The one true bust for the Texans, and it looks even worse when you think that we passed on some major talent in 2005 to get him. He fit a huge need, but never really progressed

Mario Williams - Perhaps the best draft day choice a #1 team has ever made. Reggie Bush was the no brainer and he defied that and went with Williams who did not disappoint

Amobi Okoye - I wouldnt call him a bust. Willis and Revis would have been better picks in hindsight, but how often does a 19 year old 4 year starter come along? He started off with a bang as a rookie, but he never developed into the guy we thought, funny thing is that he still just 25 years old. crazy to think a normal guy would be going into his 3rd or 4th make or break season and Okoye already has 7 years in the NFL


Starting in 2008, we have hit on every 1st round pick, and i think that is what has built our team, and gave Kubiak a reset button in 2010.

Duane Brown - boy was i wrong, and most of us were about him, He has turned out to be something special

Brian Cushing - Another guy that would be All World if he could stay on the field. Between health problems and suspensions he has missed a lot of time

Kareem Jackson - Jackson might never be a #1 shut down corner, but he showed this season that he can start in this league for a long time, and thats exactly what we need

JJ Watt

Whitney Merciless - Our first luxury pick in franchise history. We had never drafted a player in round 1 that we didnt need to start right away. While Travis Johnson didnt start, that was more to do with him than our needs. Merciless was good in limited action with 6 sacks and hopefully he will take another step forward

Hopkins - will the trend continue, we need it to
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texandominance


Joined: 22 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easily Johnson. Putting Carr on the poll isn't fair because he had nothing around him and took a beating. It's surprising that he is still alive after what we subjected him too. Okoye never lived up to the hype but was an ok player. Travis Johnson never did anything or really showed much IMO
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TexansFan23


Joined: 14 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd argue Okoye because of the talent drafted around him. I wanted Revis or a trade up to Peterson. Willis and Lynch were right around Okoye, too.
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Pastor Dillon


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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Location: Mountain Home, Arkansas
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TexansFan23 wrote:
I'd argue Okoye because of the talent drafted around him. I wanted Revis or a trade up to Peterson. Willis and Lynch were right around Okoye, too.


We all have to keep in mind when judging Okoye is that wanting him instead of a trade up for Peterson is solely responisble for us have EliteTexan around Very Happy
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biggio7


Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TexansFan23 wrote:
I'd argue Okoye because of the talent drafted around him. I wanted Revis or a trade up to Peterson. Willis and Lynch were right around Okoye, too.


I don't think the talent around Okoye should matter though. They had nothing to do with his poor. Okoye was just a bad pick by the FO. I think him and Johnson would be a push. Carr is awesome. I should have solid his autographed rookie cards when I first pulled them from packs. I loved it at the time though. I got two of him the same week. I nearly fainted. Laughing
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Texansfan713


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TexansFan23 wrote:
I'd argue Okoye because of the talent drafted around him. I wanted Revis or a trade up to Peterson. Willis and Lynch were right around Okoye, too.


You forget, we traded back to pick Johnson. We could have picked Derrick Thomas. At least Okoye had at least 1 productive season with us (his rookie year, even though he hit a wall towards the end of his rookie year.) Johnson was horrible from his rookie year until his last year with us. The picks after Okoye sting a little, but Travis Johnson was our biggest bust IMO. There is a reason he is out the league.
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Dawgtx


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are going to use the premise that Carr had no one around him, you could use it Okoye defense as well. Here is a 19 yr old rookie, with a defensive coordinator and system that, basically just sucked. There is no way he was going to learn or develope with the defensive coaches we had at the time. And, I personally think the jury is still out on Okoye.

I also think Carr's problems was more on Carr than the offensive line. That's not to say they were good, but the sack numbers were almost halved just by switching QB's with basically the same offensive line.

Travis Johnson was a worthless draft pick.
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dawgtx wrote:
If you are going to use the premise that Carr had no one around him, you could use it Okoye defense as well. Here is a 19 yr old rookie, with a defensive coordinator and system that, basically just sucked. There is no way he was going to learn or develope with the defensive coaches we had at the time. And, I personally think the jury is still out on Okoye.

I also think Carr's problems was more on Carr than the offensive line. That's not to say they were good, but the sack numbers were almost halved just by switching QB's with basically the same offensive line.

Travis Johnson was a worthless draft pick.


I'm conflicted on this. Always drives me nuts when blame for Carr's failure is placed solely on the o-line. First off, the Texans did have a decent "plan" as a line of Boselli - Pitts - McKinney - Weary - R. Young would have been solid. Whomever you blame (Jags, Boselli, Texans medical), it's not like the Texans took Carr with a plan of feeding him to the wolves as is commonly stated (he did get a future hall of fame WR in year 2). Year 2, I do place more direct blame on the Texans as holding out blind hope in Boselli's recovery (fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me) and letting Young go and bringing in Weigert was grossly insufficient and exacerbated by the true worst pick in franchise history - Bennie Joppru in the 2nd round (regardless of the injury, he presented poor value even amongst TEs and there is no way TE was on the priority need radar). It got even worse the next year with painfully slow Seth Wand presented as a solution (which made missing out on Freeney in 02 that much more painful).

Simple fact was that we chose a year not unlike this past year that was lacking in any true franchise caliber QB (Carr, Harrington, Ramsey) and elevated Carr into the 1st overall based more on marketing potential than football potential. McNair and others had visions of the pretty boy All American QB drawing fan interest and loved his squeaky clean alter boy persona (that hid a poor work ethic, poor leadership skills, and soft demeanor). Carr was "tough" in the sense that he kept getting up after brutal beatings (game 2 vs. Chargers included 9 sacks and about 12 QB hits) but he was pampered in life and by the warm, fuzzy Texans and the rah rah media who refused to hold him accountable as the talent around him improved and he was still a turnover machine who seemed at a certain point to take sacks just to prove a point about his "plight." Worst of all, the guy became a quitter who was given a new lease on life when Kubiak came to town, but cowered when Kubs actually challenged him to improve and suggested that SOME of the blame for all the sacks and turnovers we're on him. I'm sorry, Schaub ended this debate in his first year by only getting sacked 16 times with a line in front of him not substantially better than the one Carr got sacked 68 times behind the year before. It's a fact all these people calling for fast, strong, mobile QBs needs to recall as Carr was all of the above, but he held the damn ball too long and never understood how destructive sacks and turnovers were vs. just throwing a ball away and winning the next play.

While initially Travis Johnson didn't quite meet the test as a "worst pick" candidate as the 2005 draft talent pool was perceived as shallow and Casserly got a 3rd rounder that became Eric Winston by moving back 3 spots and stockpiling into a talent filled 06 draft. The pick was maddening at the time because as usual the Chargers and Cowboys "scooped" us and grabbed our ideal picks Shawn Merriman, and Demarcus Ware the picks before and we missed both Jamaal Brown and Derrick Johnson before settling on TJ. It's hard to judge that draft as so many teams missed badly, but also hard to ignore that Casserly never grasped that the 3-4 is built upon OLBs getting to the passer, not DEs who he kept overpaying for in dollars (Gary Walker) and picks like TJ. Considering Capers and Fangio went on to do just fine at Green Bay and SF, I have to think Casserly was the problem especially went he went nuts and traded away our next two picks for Patrick Buchanon which was the final nail in his coffin.

That leaves Okoye to examine. Rick Smith's first pick was not unlike Casserly's first for us. The "idea" of Okoye was always better than the player as he seemed like the type you want to build around as a solid citizen and high upside based upon his post season and combine, but he was a good-not great college player in a soft Big East. The measurables showed up on occasion on broken plays, but he was never a penatrator and like Carr, just wasn't internally driven to excel at football the way you need to be to be a star. While I "get" the Okoye pick, it was a classic "swing for the fences pick" when we had solid doubles sitting there with Patrick Willis, Leon Hall, and Darelle Revis. Obviously Okoye was a swing and a miss while the others hit it out of the park, but like the Carr pick, it was exacerbated by our reluctance to call him out on his failure to develop which wasn't helped by the woeful hires of Richard Smith and Frank Bush.

Weighing those 3, I still give the nod to the David Carr pick primarily because Julius Peppers was so clearly the best player coming out and that we should have known better, having watched a far more talented QB in Tim Couch get destroyed for 3 years in relaunching the Browns franchise under the new restricted expansion rules that ensured we would stink for 3-4 years. We even hired the same coordinator that couldn't figure out a way to keep him from getting killed in Chris Palmer. For my money, it still made far more sense to stick a placeholder mobile QB like Jeff Blake or Charlie Batch back there (or Tony Banks) the first few seasons before plugging in the franchise QB. Gee, in 2004 we could have been players for Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers, Big Ben, or developed some guy named Matt Schaub.
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't a choice, but my actual vote for worst #1 pick of all time would actually be Jason Babin. It is irrelevant that he became a decent player 6 years (and 5 teams) later after finding that Kyle Vandenbosch, Travis Laboy, Antwan Odom, Haynesworth, "secret sauce" to pass rush success (and no it wasn't Jim Washburn's superior coaching as that myth was exposed in Philly). The pick again showed just how clueless Casserly was in fitting talent to a 3-4 and how careless he was in burning draft picks for a developmental team with so many holes. Babin had no business in a 3-4 as a completely one dimensional upfield pass rusher who couldn't shed NFL blocks, couldn't cover, and couldn't be hidden on running downs. More than anything, the guy was the very personification of a dumb jock who couldn't learn NFL schemes or be taught technique, was painfully unathletic in anything that didn't involve lifting heavy weights or running in a straight line and Casserly must have missed the "Western" in his Western Michigan college resume.

However, the mortal sin in the pick was the compensation. We gave up a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th for Babin and a 5th. This was on top of Casserly peeing away a 2nd rounder (that would have been the #33 pick) on Tony Hollings in the supplemental draft (Cards grabbed Karlos Dansby at #33 instead). Remember, this was a 5-11 team folks! It's too easy to just plug in the best from each round, but that's why you play the numbers game to have a chance at finding Bob Sanders, Matt Schaub, and Jared Allen in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th vs. shooting your wad on a 1st round flyer on a small school workout wonder. Was just an absolutely ridiculously short sighted move for a team that was clearly several years away from a winning season, better yet going anywhere in the playoffs.
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back to the OP, this concept of "starting = success" has been a fundamental flaw in our evaluation of picks since inception. Even just looking at the first round picks, David Carr should have never been stuck out there once it was clear Boselli and Young weren't and we likely set the franchise back 5 years in doing so. Inserting Kareem Jackson as a rookie next to Quin and McCain with coverage challenged safeties behind him like Pollard, Wilson, Nolan was a suicide mission that wasted a playoff caliber offense with the o-line peaking, Foster bringing balance, and Walter/Jacoby/Dreessen contributing the best effort from the supporting cast, not to mention the damage and ridicule we exposed Kareem to which has broken many a DB (Jason David was "broken" in one game and we'll see what becomes of Rahim Moore in Denver).

I recall posters once extolling the greatness of "sleeper picks" like CC Brown, Zac Diles, Fred Bennett, Dom Barber, Troy Nolan, as if the fact they were starting so early made them great picks rather than representing the FAILURES of previous drafts. If Casserly doesn't throw away all of our 2nd and 3rd round picks in 04-05, we could have used those picks on guys who were actually talented enough to start at safety like Bob Sanders, Nick Collins, OJ Atogwe, Corey Webster, etc. If we just stayed put in 04 we could have paired Chris Gamble with Dunta and been set instead of all the picks burned finding the #2 including the Buchanon disaster, Bennett, Molden, etc. Zac Diles or even Adibi's brief stint starting was a complete product of the Texans and their fans settling for "just a guy" players and it took Cushing to show us that Greenwood, Diles, Clark etc were just taking up space out there vs. making plays that impact games. Barber/Nolan and all the other street garbage we ran out there at safety was the most maddening of all especially in a division dominated by Peyton's Colts. Hell, imagine where we might be if we had just started out with Ed Reed in 2002 instead of Carr. Daniel Manning finally showed what had been missing and I hope we get few glimpses of what Ed Reed could do and make this a major 2013 priority as I think Swearinger will be a good #3 in the box improvement for today, but not a long-term answer at FS for tomorrow.

We may come to view Hopkins as an inspired coupling of need/value, but lets not define his success based on him being a likely day 1 starter. If Johnathan Cyprien ends up being what many think he will, we may look back and wonder if having Terence Williams starting alongside AJ wouldn't have been just fine even if Cyprien WASN'T a day one starter, but a star for a decade. Again, even having to take Hopkins needs to be viewed through the lens of the poor value of Posey / Martin when we could have had Randle & Hilton (or my preference Dwayne Allen & Hilton or Givens). Heck, instead of reaching up for Brandon Harris we could have grabbed Torrey Smith or Randall Cobb. If we didn't burn the 2nd rounder on Ben Tate we could have had Golden Tate, Emmanuel Sanders, or Eric Decker. Again, don't view these things in a vacuum as we have bypassed plenty of talent to create a hole as large as we had at WR.

For me, the Duane Brown pick and my kneejerk reaction was a learning point as to truly waiting those 3-4 years to truly judge a pick and maybe Kareem will drive the point home further if he takes another step this year. Heck, look where the Cowboys were in 08 and how popular the Felix Jones and Mike Jenkins picks were relative to ours and both of those guys are already out of the league and we've got the best LT in the game. Heck the Steelers used to never start rookies but Mendenhall seemed like such a can't miss fit they couldn't pass him up, yet they've cratered the past few seasons with no LT and Mendenhall is already ancient history. Wouldn't it be a bizarro world if the Raiders found gold in Menelik Watson or Jerry found himself a 10 year starter in Frederick while we just plugged what we thought was a final hole at #2 WR? Just sayin...
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