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2013 Offseason Thread™ [Vol. IV]
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baconrad3


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Mathis was the 2nd best guard and 6th best offensive player last year then I'm Justin Bieber.


PFF is a farce. Just because they have a stiffy for Mathis doesn't mean he's some All-Pro guard.

He played well last year. Was above average, but I definitely did not see "All-Pro" play out of him.
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RainbowCarebear


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

baconrad3 wrote:
If Mathis was the 2nd best guard and 6th best offensive player last year then I'm Justin Bieber.


PFF is a farce. Just because they have a stiffy for Mathis doesn't mean he's some All-Pro guard.

He played well last year. Was above average, but I definitely did not see "All-Pro" play out of him.


Of course not... The rest of the OL was busy getting beaten.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFF made a formula and for some reason Mathis just ends up being at the top every year Laughing

They only pimp him out for the sake of the integrity of their formula. Everyone here watches Evan Mathis on a weekly basis. Nobody here is calling him the best guard in the NFL and certainly, if he was, we'd have noticed something by now.

It's a nice little accolade, but at the same time is the quintessential reminder that statistics do not tell the whole story.
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Withmy89vision


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
PFF made a formula and for some reason Mathis just ends up being at the top every year Laughing

They only pimp him out for the sake of the integrity of their formula. Everyone here watches Evan Mathis on a weekly basis. Nobody here is calling him the best guard in the NFL and certainly, if he was, we'd have noticed something by now.

It's a nice little accolade, but at the same time is the quintessential reminder that statistics do not tell the whole story.



Exactly. Mathis is an above average pass blocker with good run blocking technique but his problem is he isn't a mauler. He won't straight up overpower people. If a strong DT goes against him with sloppy technique, Mathis will win. But if he is going against a powerful DT with good technique, he will get beat time to time.
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Bednarik60


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
They only pimp him out for the sake of the integrity of their formula. Everyone here watches Evan Mathis on a weekly basis. Nobody here is calling him the best guard in the NFL and certainly, if he was, we'd have noticed something by now.


QFT...that sums it up perfectly. He may of given up the least sacks, but how many times was pushed around and comprimised? plenty.
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since PFF is considered to be a joke what other sites out there statistically keep track of Offense Line categories and where do they have him ranked, just curious? Are there other sites dedicated to those statistics? I mean it seems to be the only posistion's in the NFL that don't get legit credit for their play against their piers!
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baconrad3


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbs4u wrote:
Since PFF is considered to be a joke what other sites out there statistically keep track of Offense Line categories and where do they have him ranked, just curious? Are there other sites dedicated to those statistics? I mean it seems to be the only posistion's in the NFL that don't get legit credit for their play against their piers!


Not everything about PFF is a joke...I like some of their rankings.

But their man-crush on Mathis is pretty ridiculous. I've watched every single Eagles game over the past few years since Mathis was here, and I've never come away thinking Mathis was the best guard in the league, which is what PFF says he is.

I don't need a formula or stats to tell me which offensive lineman on the team I watch most is good or not good. I pay attention, very close attention to most everything I can. Mathis gets manhandled pretty consistently in the passing game. He also struggles getting to the 2nd level in run blocking. But that's just my opinion. With someone like Mathis, it's best to go off the eye test.

I think he is an above average guard. I don't hate him. I think we'll need to replace him soon, but last year I'd give him a 6.5/10 overall. I thought Herremans was better.
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Nabbs4u


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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

baconrad3 wrote:
Nabbs4u wrote:
Since PFF is considered to be a joke what other sites out there statistically keep track of Offense Line categories and where do they have him ranked, just curious? Are there other sites dedicated to those statistics? I mean it seems to be the only posistion's in the NFL that don't get legit credit for their play against their piers!


Not everything about PFF is a joke...I like some of their rankings.

But their man-crush on Mathis is pretty ridiculous. I've watched every single Eagles game over the past few years since Mathis was here, and I've never come away thinking Mathis was the best guard in the league, which is what PFF says he is.

I don't need a formula or stats to tell me which offensive lineman on the team I watch most is good or not good. I pay attention, very close attention to most everything I can. Mathis gets manhandled pretty consistently in the passing game. He also struggles getting to the 2nd level in run blocking. But that's just my opinion. With someone like Mathis, it's best to go off the eye test.

I think he is an above average guard. I don't hate him. I think we'll need to replace him soon, but last year I'd give him a 6.5/10 overall. I thought Herremans was better.


Problem with doing what you said is that it is in the eye of the beholder though. Which in essence means there could be thousands if different opinions on the same play being watched. If there are (another site perhaps??) that specifically Target categories that apply to ALL Olineman and they can be compared to everyone, why shouldn't they be? There has to be some kind of statistics out there that are kept to compare lineman? Surely this site did not create these categories on the off chance to pimp one player on the Eagles while destroying several other on the roster with their play. I'm truely asking because I like 90%+ of the NFL fans watching games am not paying attention to the OG and what they are doing right or wrong 24/7 unless it specifically pointed as a mistake during the broadcast.
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killdawabbit


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's why this conversation is silly: According to the stats and methodology PFF used, Mathis is ranked wherever they have him ranked. Period. You don't have to like their rankings. You are free to feel their method is silly or wrong. However noone has any - ANY - legitimate argument against them unless they can somehow show that PFF deviated in their methodology. Flawed or not, by their method, Mathis is rated where he is.

Before calling me an idiot, make sure you take careful note of the italicized emphasis. Also note that this in no way implies that I either do or don't put any stock in anything PFF does.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killdawabbit wrote:
Here's why this conversation is silly: According to the stats and methodology PFF used, Mathis is ranked wherever they have him ranked. Period. You don't have to like their rankings. You are free to feel their method is silly or wrong. However noone has any - ANY - legitimate argument against them unless they can somehow show that PFF deviated in their methodology. Flawed or not, by their method, Mathis is rated where he is.

Before calling me an idiot, make sure you take careful note of the italicized emphasis. Also note that this in no way implies that I either do or don't put any stock in anything PFF does.

There are no legitimate arguments to argue that PFF's statistical method and resulting rankings are wrong. It's their formula, their rankings.

But there are plenty of arguments to argue against PFF's subsequent, or at least inferred claim that Evan Mathis is the 2nd best offensive player in professional football only behind Adrian Peterson.

PFF's statistical formula, whatever it may be, is clearly a farse because their results do not meet reality. Nobody is arguing that they deviated from their methodology.
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JayAp07


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
killdawabbit wrote:
Here's why this conversation is silly: According to the stats and methodology PFF used, Mathis is ranked wherever they have him ranked. Period. You don't have to like their rankings. You are free to feel their method is silly or wrong. However noone has any - ANY - legitimate argument against them unless they can somehow show that PFF deviated in their methodology. Flawed or not, by their method, Mathis is rated where he is.

Before calling me an idiot, make sure you take careful note of the italicized emphasis. Also note that this in no way implies that I either do or don't put any stock in anything PFF does.

There are no legitimate arguments to argue that PFF's statistical method and resulting rankings are wrong. It's their formula, their rankings.

But there are plenty of arguments to argue against PFF's subsequent, or at least inferred claim that Evan Mathis is the 2nd best offensive player in professional football only behind Adrian Peterson.

PFF's statistical formula, whatever it may be, is clearly a farse because their results do not meet reality. Nobody is arguing that they deviated from their methodology.


Bingo.
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RBrown86


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evan Mathis' dad must be a member of PFF or something Laughing
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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killdawabbit wrote:
Here's why this conversation is silly: According to the stats and methodology PFF used, Mathis is ranked wherever they have him ranked. Period. You don't have to like their rankings. You are free to feel their method is silly or wrong. However noone has any - ANY - legitimate argument against them unless they can somehow show that PFF deviated in their methodology. Flawed or not, by their method, Mathis is rated where he is.

Before calling me an idiot, make sure you take careful note of the italicized emphasis. Also note that this in no way implies that I either do or don't put any stock in anything PFF does.


28 PHI 3.37 23 3.45 26 3.61 27 3.90 17 3.69 23
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

The Eagles were actually worse running to the left side than the right side last year per football outsiders. Is this fully an indictment of Mathis, absolutley not, as he was flanked by DeMetress Bell and King Dunlap at LT and Dallas Reynolds at C. That said I would expect that with our best OL on the left side, and a guy with a strong run blocking rating per PFF would have much more success than that.
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killdawabbit


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
killdawabbit wrote:
Here's why this conversation is silly: According to the stats and methodology PFF used, Mathis is ranked wherever they have him ranked. Period. You don't have to like their rankings. You are free to feel their method is silly or wrong. However noone has any - ANY - legitimate argument against them unless they can somehow show that PFF deviated in their methodology. Flawed or not, by their method, Mathis is rated where he is.

Before calling me an idiot, make sure you take careful note of the italicized emphasis. Also note that this in no way implies that I either do or don't put any stock in anything PFF does.


28 PHI 3.37 23 3.45 26 3.61 27 3.90 17 3.69 23
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

The Eagles were actually worse running to the left side than the right side last year per football outsiders. Is this fully an indictment of Mathis, absolutley not, as he was flanked by DeMetress Bell and King Dunlap at LT and Dallas Reynolds at C. That said I would expect that with our best OL on the left side, and a guy with a strong run blocking rating per PFF would have much more success than that.


You completely miss the point. Phire sort of got it, but not totally.

Does PFF have a set of controls and/or statistics that they can use for all the players they rated? Did they apply these consistantly to all the players they rated? You could argue flawed methodology, but if the answer to those 2 questions is yes, then you can't argue with their rankings.

I swear, why is it such a horrible thing that an Eagles player is highly rated? Literally every time that happens, people come out of the woodwork to cry foul. So PFF rates Mathis highly. Good for him. Even if their methodology is flawed, there could actually be something to it, right?
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EaglesFan5-36-81


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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killdawabbit wrote:
EaglesFan5-36-81 wrote:
killdawabbit wrote:
Here's why this conversation is silly: According to the stats and methodology PFF used, Mathis is ranked wherever they have him ranked. Period. You don't have to like their rankings. You are free to feel their method is silly or wrong. However noone has any - ANY - legitimate argument against them unless they can somehow show that PFF deviated in their methodology. Flawed or not, by their method, Mathis is rated where he is.

Before calling me an idiot, make sure you take careful note of the italicized emphasis. Also note that this in no way implies that I either do or don't put any stock in anything PFF does.


28 PHI 3.37 23 3.45 26 3.61 27 3.90 17 3.69 23
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

The Eagles were actually worse running to the left side than the right side last year per football outsiders. Is this fully an indictment of Mathis, absolutley not, as he was flanked by DeMetress Bell and King Dunlap at LT and Dallas Reynolds at C. That said I would expect that with our best OL on the left side, and a guy with a strong run blocking rating per PFF would have much more success than that.


You completely miss the point. Phire sort of got it, but not totally.

Does PFF have a set of controls and/or statistics that they can use for all the players they rated? Did they apply these consistantly to all the players they rated? You could argue flawed methodology, but if the answer to those 2 questions is yes, then you can't argue with their rankings.

I swear, why is it such a horrible thing that an Eagles player is highly rated? Literally every time that happens, people come out of the woodwork to cry foul. So PFF rates Mathis highly. Good for him. Even if their methodology is flawed, there could actually be something to it, right?


I wasn't saying its a horrible thing. I'm presenting a valid argument of why some would say he didn't deserve it.

And you can argue with their rankings if their methods are flawed and the fact is if you give a positive run blocking rating to someone who is on the worst run blocking side of his respective OL then there it is at least questionable. Also, if you use the same ratings to rate a guard to a quarterback, then the logic is flawed.
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