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Wee-Bey


Joined: 15 Apr 2013
Posts: 673
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Really it was answered? Because ive yet to see an answer. You brought up how Harvin is faster, stronger quicker which proves nothing because there are plenty of receivers who are more physically gifted than Cruz but doesnt make them better.

I said, even with or without the supporting cast argument, what does Harvin do better than Cruz.


I also included Percy having better hands and being better after that catch as reasons for why I believe he is a better receiver. You went on to to deny these truths despite them being statistically verifiable, and are actively attempting to employ arguments against them as I type.

Quote:
Yeh its applicable only in the right situation. Like i said above, is Jeremy Kerley better than Cruz because he has a worst supporting cast or are we just gonna neglect the fact Cruz is probably better in most aspects when it comes to comparing a receiver. Answer that.


It's applicable in this situation. Your approval isn't necessary, and your strawman doesn't apply. I further disagree with the notion that Cruz is better in most aspects of being a receiver, as established by my arguments in this thread, and you've done nothing to sway me of that opinion.

Quote:
What production affirms it? Didnt you say earlier something along the lines of Cruz, and im paraphrasing, has better production than Harvin but it means nothing without context? But now his production proves he is better?


The production I've alluded to either on this page, or the last one. His total YAC yards, where he ranks third in the league despite playing 9 of 16 games, and his leading receivers in broken tackles for the 2nd time in three seasons.

That is context.

Quote:
Look i bet you if cruz caught half his behind the LOS, he wouldnt have finished 2nd in drops. And youre being hypocritical, which is what you are basically accusing me of. You tell me to look at the context, well why can't you look at the context in this instance. A pass behind LOS is MUCH MUCH easier to catch than a pass 15 yards down the field. And tell me how there is more traffic from catching the ball from behind LOS to 15 yards downfield please tell he how.


I'm not going argue a fact with you. I made a statement and I supported it, and included a three year timeframe to provide an ample sample size for analysis.

Additionally, we're both familiar with why Harvin is limited in his offense while Cruz is not, but by all means, continue pretending as if Eli Manning and Hakeem Nicks aren't positive contributors to Cruz's productivity, while Ponder isn't a detriment to Harvin's. It makes your bias clear.

Quote:
If you have yet to provide me with an argument that supports your point, then im in my right to say its invalid. You say my argument isnt good, well you need to take a look at yours because its not particularly good either.


You're free to keep putting your fingers in your ears and screaming, but my arguments are clear, they're supported by fact, and they don't require you're agreement to be concrete.

In any case, you're arguing against facts now, or ignoring them entirely, and so I don't see how this discussion can go any further. You think Cruz is a better receiver because you're a homer, and that's fine, but at least own up to it.
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypocrisy. You said he has better hands because the catch rate says so but you ignore context. If i throw 10 screens to a RB and then throw 10 passes 15 yards down the field, then the RB catches all of the screens while the WR catches 6/10 does the running back have better hands? Because by your logic he has. Theyre not truths, not by any stretch. You come across as one of those guys that say "stats dont lie".

In your opinion its applicable. But in reality youre just a Seahawks fan (i believe) that would not be arguing this if he was still on the Vikes. There was a thread not to long ago and many people said Cruz is the better receiver but Percy the better player. But back to the point. Just for your sake, Percy is a better YAC receiver. OK after that what does he do better? Im gonna ignore the hands because you clearly arent getting it. Im still waiting for that argument. So keep pumping your chest saying its an argument but i know its not.

Seriously? Take away Eli Manning and Hakeem Nicks and take away his production. I repeat, what does he do better than Cruz? Is Eli responsible for Cruz being able to run routes, is he responsible for his YAC, is he responsible for his ability to go deep, is he responsible for catching in traffic?

You say i'm a homer, why because i share the opinion that most people on here share? If anything youre the homer, the second Percy turned a Seahawk. "Well Percy is great, he is a top 10 receiver". Unlike you i dont think Cruz is a top 10 receiver. I know you ignored by example but i will ask you this, Is Jeremy Kerley vs Cruz a debatable comparison because Kerley has a worse cast around him?

So again, provide me with reasons as to why Percy's better.
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clubmember


Joined: 23 Jun 2012
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Location: Washington
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reckless, I understand the premise of your argument, but you really screwed up on a few things.

1. Don't just say people don't know how to read, that doesn't work

2. You say the supporting cast argument isn't applicable because of how much better Cruz is than Harvin. Well look at these stats, and realize you argued for numerous pages, with your only argument being supporting cast and college hype, that player A was better than player B.

Player A: 627 attempts, 339 completions for a 51.4% completion rate. 4374 yards, 23 TD's, 18 INT's and a 3.7% TD rate. 76.5 passer rating. Rushed 62 times for 255 yards and 5 TD's for 4.1 YPA.

Player B: 252 completions, 393 attempts for a 64.1% completion rate. 3118 yards, 26 TD's, 10 INT's and a 6.6% TD rate. 100.0 passer rating. Rushed 94 times for 489 yards and 4 TD's for 5.2 YPA.

3. Where is the statistic that says half of the balls thrown Harvins way were thrown behind the LOS?

4. Did I say the supporting cast argument automatically made Harvin better? No, I did not, so by your logic you do not know how to read. Jeremy Kerley is just not a great player at this stage of his career. A much better comparison is Larry Fitzgerald. I have seen you argue supporting cast for him, why does Harvin not get the same treatment?
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Wee-Bey


Joined: 15 Apr 2013
Posts: 673
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Hypocrisy. You said he has better hands because the catch rate says so but you ignore context. If i throw 10 screens to a RB and then throw 10 passes 15 yards down the field, then the RB catches all of the screens while the WR catches 6/10 does the running back have better hands? Because by your logic he has. Theyre not truths, not by any stretch. You come across as one of those guys that say "stats dont lie".


Harvin is a WR, not a RB, and you have no evidence that supports the notion that 60% of his receptions over the last 3 seasons have been screens.

You're just throwing stuff at the wall.

Quote:
In your opinion its applicable. But in reality youre just a Seahawks fan (i believe) that would not be arguing this if he was still on the Vikes. There was a thread not to long ago and many people said Cruz is the better receiver but Percy the better player. But back to the point. Just for your sake, Percy is a better YAC receiver. OK after that what does he do better? Im gonna ignore the hands because you clearly arent getting it. Im still waiting for that argument. So keep pumping your chest saying its an argument but i know its not.


I'm not going any further in this discussion. If you think Victor Cruz is better, that's youre prerogative, but my points are clear.

Quote:
Seriously? Take away Eli Manning and Hakeem Nicks and take away his production. I repeat, what does he do better than Cruz? Is Eli responsible for Cruz being able to run routes, is he responsible for his YAC, is he responsible for his ability to go deep, is he responsible for catching in traffic?


See above.

Quote:
You say i'm a homer, why because i share the opinion that most people on here share? If anything youre the homer, the second Percy turned a Seahawk. "Well Percy is great, he is a top 10 receiver". Unlike you i dont think Cruz is a top 10 receiver. I know you ignored by example but i will ask you this, Is Jeremy Kerley vs Cruz a debatable comparison because Kerley has a worse cast around him?


You're a homer because in order to support your favorite players, you employ poor logic and bad arguments without any mind to fact or reasoning. Additionally, you don't even attempt to make a case for Cruz's superiority, you simply deny any point made in Percy's favor regardless of whether or not it is a statistical truth.

Quote:
So again, provide me with reasons as to why Percy's better.


You need to go work on those reading skills you always accuse others of not having.

But one last time; Harvin has better hands, he's better after the catch, he's stronger and more explosive; attributes he uses to muscle and accelerate past defenders off the line. He's more versatile, and overall, a more dynamic option at WR.


Last edited by Wee-Bey on Sat May 04, 2013 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11939
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pen15clubmember wrote:
Reckless, I understand the premise of your argument, but you really screwed up on a few things.

1. Don't just say people don't know how to read, that doesn't work

2. You say the supporting cast argument isn't applicable because of how much better Cruz is than Harvin. Well look at these stats, and realize you argued for numerous pages, with your only argument being supporting cast and college hype, that player A was better than player B.

Player A: 627 attempts, 339 completions for a 51.4% completion rate. 4374 yards, 23 TD's, 18 INT's and a 3.7% TD rate. 76.5 passer rating. Rushed 62 times for 255 yards and 5 TD's for 4.1 YPA.

Player B: 252 completions, 393 attempts for a 64.1% completion rate. 3118 yards, 26 TD's, 10 INT's and a 6.6% TD rate. 100.0 passer rating. Rushed 94 times for 489 yards and 4 TD's for 5.2 YPA.

3. Where is the statistic that says half of the balls thrown Harvins way were thrown behind the LOS?

4. Did I say the supporting cast argument automatically made Harvin better? No, I did not, so by your logic you do not know how to read. Jeremy Kerley is just not a great player at this stage of his career. A much better comparison is Larry Fitzgerald. I have seen you argue supporting cast for him, why does Harvin not get the same treatment?


1. Its just frustration. Its like people are grabbing bits and pieces and not looking at the whole picture. Like for instance, i said Wilson had a better rookie year than Luck but people take it as if to say because Luck had an inferior cast around him he is better.

2. I beg of you find me a quote where i have said Luck was better than Wilson. Pleaseeeee then i would shut up. This why i say people struggle reading posts.

3. Passes thrown behind LOS 32 receptions, Yards 275 and 2 TD.

4. No because other than YAC, there is not one thing you could say Harvin does better than Cruz. And by using catch rate to say somebody has better hands in this instance is not right. When you catch half your balls behind the LOS, yeh you would figure Harvin would have a higher catch rate.

But to your point about Larry Fitz. He has shown numerous times why he is a top receiver. Heck he did it in 2011 the latest when he had bad QB play. Harvin has not proven, well not consistently, he is that top receiver. Cruz is a better redzone receiver, better route runner (great out of his cuts), more reliable target or 3rd down target, better deep threat, better intermediate, better at catching in traffic, better at beating press coverage from the slot and has a better salsa. Harvin, for the sake of argument, is a better YAC receiver. Better running short routes. And is more physically gifted but not all of that translate into being a quality receiver.
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11939
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wee-Bey wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Hypocrisy. You said he has better hands because the catch rate says so but you ignore context. If i throw 10 screens to a RB and then throw 10 passes 15 yards down the field, then the RB catches all of the screens while the WR catches 6/10 does the running back have better hands? Because by your logic he has. Theyre not truths, not by any stretch. You come across as one of those guys that say "stats dont lie".


Harvin is a WR, not a RB, and you have no evidence that supports the notion that 60% of his receptions over the last 3 seasons have been screens.

You're just throwing stuff at the wall.

Quote:
In your opinion its applicable. But in reality youre just a Seahawks fan (i believe) that would not be arguing this if he was still on the Vikes. There was a thread not to long ago and many people said Cruz is the better receiver but Percy the better player. But back to the point. Just for your sake, Percy is a better YAC receiver. OK after that what does he do better? Im gonna ignore the hands because you clearly arent getting it. Im still waiting for that argument. So keep pumping your chest saying its an argument but i know its not.


I'm not going any further in this discussion. If you think Victor Cruz is better, that's youre prerogative, but my points are clear.

Quote:
Seriously? Take away Eli Manning and Hakeem Nicks and take away his production. I repeat, what does he do better than Cruz? Is Eli responsible for Cruz being able to run routes, is he responsible for his YAC, is he responsible for his ability to go deep, is he responsible for catching in traffic?


See above.

Quote:
You say i'm a homer, why because i share the opinion that most people on here share? If anything youre the homer, the second Percy turned a Seahawk. "Well Percy is great, he is a top 10 receiver". Unlike you i dont think Cruz is a top 10 receiver. I know you ignored by example but i will ask you this, Is Jeremy Kerley vs Cruz a debatable comparison because Kerley has a worse cast around him?


You're a homer because in order to support your favorite players, you employ poor logic and bad arguments without any mind to fact or reasoning. Additionally, you don't even attempt to make a case for Cruz's superiority, you simply deny any point made in Percy's favor regardless of whether or not it is a statistical truth.

Quote:
So again, provide me with reasons as to why Percy's better.


You need to go work on those reading skills you always accuse others of not having.


Honestly how can i argue with you? Where did i say 60% of his passes were screens. Its was an analogy.

Your points are clear but dont support your argument. Youre basically repeating yourself and its not helping you.

I havent made a case for Cruz's superiority? What have you been reading or been struggling to read? I conceded the YAC argument just for the sake of argument. You know have that to support your "player". You then brought up catch rate in which i said, how can you use that when half of his balls have been caught behind the LOS.

Im done arguing with you, its like talking to a wall. A big waste of time. I have evidently, for everybody to see, pointed out why Cruz is better. The only thing you have brought to the discussion is well...nothing. I know if you were start a thread who is a better receiver Cruz or Harvin the bulk of the votes would go to Cruz and that is guarantee. Youre just a guy that is defending a guy because he just joined your team otherwise we wouldnt here a peep out of you on this matter.
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Wee-Bey


Joined: 15 Apr 2013
Posts: 673
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Wee-Bey wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Hypocrisy. You said he has better hands because the catch rate says so but you ignore context. If i throw 10 screens to a RB and then throw 10 passes 15 yards down the field, then the RB catches all of the screens while the WR catches 6/10 does the running back have better hands? Because by your logic he has. Theyre not truths, not by any stretch. You come across as one of those guys that say "stats dont lie".


Harvin is a WR, not a RB, and you have no evidence that supports the notion that 60% of his receptions over the last 3 seasons have been screens.

You're just throwing stuff at the wall.

Quote:
In your opinion its applicable. But in reality youre just a Seahawks fan (i believe) that would not be arguing this if he was still on the Vikes. There was a thread not to long ago and many people said Cruz is the better receiver but Percy the better player. But back to the point. Just for your sake, Percy is a better YAC receiver. OK after that what does he do better? Im gonna ignore the hands because you clearly arent getting it. Im still waiting for that argument. So keep pumping your chest saying its an argument but i know its not.


I'm not going any further in this discussion. If you think Victor Cruz is better, that's youre prerogative, but my points are clear.

Quote:
Seriously? Take away Eli Manning and Hakeem Nicks and take away his production. I repeat, what does he do better than Cruz? Is Eli responsible for Cruz being able to run routes, is he responsible for his YAC, is he responsible for his ability to go deep, is he responsible for catching in traffic?


See above.

Quote:
You say i'm a homer, why because i share the opinion that most people on here share? If anything youre the homer, the second Percy turned a Seahawk. "Well Percy is great, he is a top 10 receiver". Unlike you i dont think Cruz is a top 10 receiver. I know you ignored by example but i will ask you this, Is Jeremy Kerley vs Cruz a debatable comparison because Kerley has a worse cast around him?


You're a homer because in order to support your favorite players, you employ poor logic and bad arguments without any mind to fact or reasoning. Additionally, you don't even attempt to make a case for Cruz's superiority, you simply deny any point made in Percy's favor regardless of whether or not it is a statistical truth.

Quote:
So again, provide me with reasons as to why Percy's better.


You need to go work on those reading skills you always accuse others of not having.


Honestly how can i argue with you? Where did i say 60% of his passes were screens. Its was an analogy.

Your points are clear but dont support your argument. Youre basically repeating yourself and its not helping you.

I havent made a case for Cruz's superiority? What have you been reading or been struggling to read? I conceded the YAC argument just for the sake of argument. You know have that to support your "player". You then brought up catch rate in which i said, how can you use that when half of his balls have been caught behind the LOS.

Im done arguing with you, its like talking to a wall. A big waste of time. I have evidently, for everybody to see, pointed out why Cruz is better. The only thing you have brought to the discussion is well...nothing. I know if you were start a thread who is a better receiver Cruz or Harvin the bulk of the votes would go to Cruz and that is guarantee. Youre just a guy that is defending a guy because he just joined your team otherwise we wouldnt here a peep out of you on this matter.


Reckless, go away with your homerism. Most people don't have Cruz ranked as highly as you, and more people in this thread have Harvin on their list than they do Victor.
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11939
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wee-Bey wrote:

Reckless, go away with your homerism. Most people don't have Cruz ranked as highly as you, and more people in this thread have Harvin on their list than they do Victor.


Yeh i'm perfectly unreasonable in questioning your reading skills. LOL.
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Wee-Bey


Joined: 15 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Wee-Bey wrote:

Reckless, go away with your homerism. Most people don't have Cruz ranked as highly as you, and more people in this thread have Harvin on their list than they do Victor.


Yeh i'm perfectly unreasonable in questioning your reading skills. LOL.


Son, grow up.
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11939
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wee-Bey wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Wee-Bey wrote:

Reckless, go away with your homerism. Most people don't have Cruz ranked as highly as you, and more people in this thread have Harvin on their list than they do Victor.


Yeh i'm perfectly unreasonable in questioning your reading skills. LOL.


Son, grow up.


1. Dont call me son.

2. I am grown up. Its just youre reading skills are questionable.
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Wee-Bey


Joined: 15 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Wee-Bey wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Wee-Bey wrote:

Reckless, go away with your homerism. Most people don't have Cruz ranked as highly as you, and more people in this thread have Harvin on their list than they do Victor.


Yeh i'm perfectly unreasonable in questioning your reading skills. LOL.


Son, grow up.


1. Dont call me son.

2. I am grown up. Its just youre reading skills are questionable.


Whatever you say, son.
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RedGreenShow


Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 1674
Location: Nati
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Top 7 WRs Reply with quote

thebeast15 wrote:
1. Calvin Johnson
2. Brandon Marshall
3. A.J. Green
4. Larry Fitzgerald
5. Andre Johnson
6. Victor Cruz
7. Roddy White


I'd like to hear what areas of Marshall's game (besides YAC) are better than Larry Fitzgerald and AJ Green.
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[quote="YoursTruly"]He doesn't get the ball because he is shut down. Zero seperation. It is my understanding that Elite WR should be able to do this when their number is called. AJ gets shut down relatively easy.[/quote]
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11939
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Top 7 WRs Reply with quote

RedGreenShow wrote:
thebeast15 wrote:
1. Calvin Johnson
2. Brandon Marshall
3. A.J. Green
4. Larry Fitzgerald
5. Andre Johnson
6. Victor Cruz
7. Roddy White


I'd like to hear what areas of Marshall's game (besides YAC) are better than Larry Fitzgerald and AJ Green.


Dude has Victor Cruz in top 7. No need to say more.
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theuntouchable


Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 9374
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Wee-Bey wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Wee-Bey wrote:

Reckless, go away with your homerism. Most people don't have Cruz ranked as highly as you, and more people in this thread have Harvin on their list than they do Victor.


Yeh i'm perfectly unreasonable in questioning your reading skills. LOL.


Son, grow up.


1. Dont call me son.

2. I am grown up. Its just youre reading skills are questionable.


Oh, the irony!
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anyone around?

I feel..so cold.
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reckless123


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 11939
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theuntouchable wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Wee-Bey wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Wee-Bey wrote:

Reckless, go away with your homerism. Most people don't have Cruz ranked as highly as you, and more people in this thread have Harvin on their list than they do Victor.


Yeh i'm perfectly unreasonable in questioning your reading skills. LOL.


Son, grow up.


1. Dont call me son.

2. I am grown up. Its just youre reading skills are questionable.


Oh, the irony!


Elaborate.
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