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whodatworm23
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QB Connoisseur
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| QB Connoisseur wrote: | http://www.draftbrowns.com/2013/04/2013-nfl-draft-prospect-profile-kenny-vaccaro/
Game by game of Vaccaro - not too impressive.
Particularly...
| Quote: | | Gets called for an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for punching/slapping an opposing player in the face twice. |
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Can't cover for the unsportsman like penalty but when you watch a film on a player, you have to understand whats being asked of the player in the situation. Is he simply playing or is he being used as a safety valve. If hes a safety, is he being asked to cover the top opposing WR because hes the best DB the team has?
It's always easy to say... "hey look, he missed this play or he missed that play" but do you really understand it, do you?
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Fray32
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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obviously It is unfair to expect all pro play from him from day 1, but I have a reaaaaaaaal good feeling about Vaccaro. I think all of us Saints fans here, even with our highly limited knowledge of assignments and how defense and schemes actually work, are going to notice a visible/noticeable improvement from our back end instantly because of this guy. Even though I was never skeptical of this pick to begin with, I have become a believer!
Week 1 hosting Atlanta is going to be a great test to assimilate this guy into the NFL. Cant wait for this season. |
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sammymvpknight
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: |
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I'm taking the wait and see approach with Vaccaro...not only because I am not sold on Vaccaro, but also because I am not sold on the decision making of our front office/scouts on the defensive side of the ball.
I had a great feeling about Hicks and Jordan before they were even drafted because they dominated their level of competition. So when they were drafted its not like they were great finds. It could have just as easily been the blind squirrel (Payton, Loomis, scouts in regard to defensive decisions) finding a nut (Hicks and Jordan). More often than not...this regimen has repeatedly failed to find, draft, and produce talent on defense.
So...I have good reason to not completely trust the Vaccaro selection.
I am a strong believer that the best way to predict the future is to look at the past. That applies not only to football...but in regards to EVERYTHING. Vaccaro is very good in man coverage in the box against TEs, WRs, and RBs. He is also a sound tackler at the LOS and will be a perfect player against the spread.
But...there is no way that I can say with any confidence that he will be good in zone coverage. He did not get a chance to do it much in college...so I don't see how anyone can assume that. This defense got absolutely shredded last season on crossing patterns in middle and deep zones. The Redskin game still haunts me today. The Saints weren't destroyed by TEs (other than Gonzalez one game). And I honestly don't see how we are going to get better in that phase of the game with the addition of Vaccaro. He likely will not be playing FS...and if he is...he has extremely like experience playing that position. If we still have Jenkins playing cover-1 with Vaccaro playing in the box covering TEs and slot WRs...we will continue to be destroyed. Not to mention that most interceptions come in the way of zone coverage...because the defender is facing the ball. This is a big reason why Vaccaro did not have very good turnover numbers. So if Vaccaro does not prove his worth in zone coverage he will likely never be a playmaker. |
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Spartica4Real
Joined: 26 Jan 2013
Posts: 5428
Location: Louisiana (NS922 on the sig)
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| sammymvpknight wrote: | I'm taking the wait and see approach with Vaccaro...not only because I am not sold on Vaccaro, but also because I am not sold on the decision making of our front office/scouts on the defensive side of the ball.
I had a great feeling about Hicks and Jordan before they were even drafted because they dominated their level of competition. So when they were drafted its not like they were great finds. It could have just as easily been the blind squirrel (Payton, Loomis, scouts in regard to defensive decisions) finding a nut (Hicks and Jordan). More often than not...this regimen has repeatedly failed to find, draft, and produce talent on defense.
So...I have good reason to not completely trust the Vaccaro selection.
I am a strong believer that the best way to predict the future is to look at the past. That applies not only to football...but in regards to EVERYTHING. Vaccaro is very good in man coverage in the box against TEs, WRs, and RBs. He is also a sound tackler at the LOS and will be a perfect player against the spread.
But...there is no way that I can say with any confidence that he will be good in zone coverage. He did not get a chance to do it much in college...so I don't see how anyone can assume that. This defense got absolutely shredded last season on crossing patterns in middle and deep zones. The Redskin game still haunts me today. The Saints weren't destroyed by TEs (other than Gonzalez one game). And I honestly don't see how we are going to get better in that phase of the game with the addition of Vaccaro. He likely will not be playing FS...and if he is...he has extremely like experience playing that position. If we still have Jenkins playing cover-1 with Vaccaro playing in the box covering TEs and slot WRs...we will continue to be destroyed. Not to mention that most interceptions come in the way of zone coverage...because the defender is facing the ball. This is a big reason why Vaccaro did not have very good turnover numbers. So if Vaccaro does not prove his worth in zone coverage he will likely never be a playmaker. |
Last I checked we weren't running a zone scheme.
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krewebrees
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartica4Real wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | I'm taking the wait and see approach with Vaccaro...not only because I am not sold on Vaccaro, but also because I am not sold on the decision making of our front office/scouts on the defensive side of the ball.
I had a great feeling about Hicks and Jordan before they were even drafted because they dominated their level of competition. So when they were drafted its not like they were great finds. It could have just as easily been the blind squirrel (Payton, Loomis, scouts in regard to defensive decisions) finding a nut (Hicks and Jordan). More often than not...this regimen has repeatedly failed to find, draft, and produce talent on defense.
So...I have good reason to not completely trust the Vaccaro selection.
I am a strong believer that the best way to predict the future is to look at the past. That applies not only to football...but in regards to EVERYTHING. Vaccaro is very good in man coverage in the box against TEs, WRs, and RBs. He is also a sound tackler at the LOS and will be a perfect player against the spread.
But...there is no way that I can say with any confidence that he will be good in zone coverage. He did not get a chance to do it much in college...so I don't see how anyone can assume that. This defense got absolutely shredded last season on crossing patterns in middle and deep zones. The Redskin game still haunts me today. The Saints weren't destroyed by TEs (other than Gonzalez one game). And I honestly don't see how we are going to get better in that phase of the game with the addition of Vaccaro. He likely will not be playing FS...and if he is...he has extremely like experience playing that position. If we still have Jenkins playing cover-1 with Vaccaro playing in the box covering TEs and slot WRs...we will continue to be destroyed. Not to mention that most interceptions come in the way of zone coverage...because the defender is facing the ball. This is a big reason why Vaccaro did not have very good turnover numbers. So if Vaccaro does not prove his worth in zone coverage he will likely never be a playmaker. |
Last I checked we weren't running a zone scheme. |
Well technically we're running a main cover 1. Only the main part of the cover 1 stays, the single deep zone. Everything else is man coverage, with maybe a single linebacker in a zone in the short center of the field. With Ryan however its likely said linebacker will be blitzing. No it isn't a zone, but my point and I believe sammy knight's is that someone has to play it the one zone in th defense. I don't feel that Vacarro or Jenkins is that guy. Vacarro is better suited to play man coverage at SS and Jenkins in my opinion dime corner. The best player to play FS is Isa Abdul-Quddus. I know that no one here is as high on him as me, but give him a chance just like everyone is saying for Galette and Tez. He can't be worse than Jenkins.
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sammymvpknight
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| krewebrees wrote: | | Spartica4Real wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | I'm taking the wait and see approach with Vaccaro...not only because I am not sold on Vaccaro, but also because I am not sold on the decision making of our front office/scouts on the defensive side of the ball.
I had a great feeling about Hicks and Jordan before they were even drafted because they dominated their level of competition. So when they were drafted its not like they were great finds. It could have just as easily been the blind squirrel (Payton, Loomis, scouts in regard to defensive decisions) finding a nut (Hicks and Jordan). More often than not...this regimen has repeatedly failed to find, draft, and produce talent on defense.
So...I have good reason to not completely trust the Vaccaro selection.
I am a strong believer that the best way to predict the future is to look at the past. That applies not only to football...but in regards to EVERYTHING. Vaccaro is very good in man coverage in the box against TEs, WRs, and RBs. He is also a sound tackler at the LOS and will be a perfect player against the spread.
But...there is no way that I can say with any confidence that he will be good in zone coverage. He did not get a chance to do it much in college...so I don't see how anyone can assume that. This defense got absolutely shredded last season on crossing patterns in middle and deep zones. The Redskin game still haunts me today. The Saints weren't destroyed by TEs (other than Gonzalez one game). And I honestly don't see how we are going to get better in that phase of the game with the addition of Vaccaro. He likely will not be playing FS...and if he is...he has extremely like experience playing that position. If we still have Jenkins playing cover-1 with Vaccaro playing in the box covering TEs and slot WRs...we will continue to be destroyed. Not to mention that most interceptions come in the way of zone coverage...because the defender is facing the ball. This is a big reason why Vaccaro did not have very good turnover numbers. So if Vaccaro does not prove his worth in zone coverage he will likely never be a playmaker. |
Last I checked we weren't running a zone scheme. |
Well technically we're running a main cover 1. Only the main part of the cover 1 stays, the single deep zone. Everything else is man coverage, with maybe a single linebacker in a zone in the short center of the field. With Ryan however its likely said linebacker will be blitzing. No it isn't a zone, but my point and I believe sammy knight's is that someone has to play it the one zone in th defense. I don't feel that Vacarro or Jenkins is that guy. Vacarro is better suited to play man coverage at SS and Jenkins in my opinion dime corner. The best player to play FS is Isa Abdul-Quddus. I know that no one here is as high on him as me, but give him a chance just like everyone is saying for Galette and Tez. He can't be worse than Jenkins. |
Bingo. FS will be playing lots of cover-1. Jenkins is awful at it. He would probably be best cover slot receivers or press on the outside. But the dude is awful in space, has horrible ball skills, and is lousy at determining angles with the ball in the air. That is a recipe for disaster as a cover-1 FS. IAQ CANNOT BE WORSE THAN JENKINS. Jenkins was the worst FS in the NFL last season. If IAQ doesn't improve our FS situation...we are going to be in a world of hurt again. |
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Lombardi Gras
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Posts: 1066
Location: NS922 on the sig
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| sammymvpknight wrote: | | krewebrees wrote: | | Spartica4Real wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | I'm taking the wait and see approach with Vaccaro...not only because I am not sold on Vaccaro, but also because I am not sold on the decision making of our front office/scouts on the defensive side of the ball.
I had a great feeling about Hicks and Jordan before they were even drafted because they dominated their level of competition. So when they were drafted its not like they were great finds. It could have just as easily been the blind squirrel (Payton, Loomis, scouts in regard to defensive decisions) finding a nut (Hicks and Jordan). More often than not...this regimen has repeatedly failed to find, draft, and produce talent on defense.
So...I have good reason to not completely trust the Vaccaro selection.
I am a strong believer that the best way to predict the future is to look at the past. That applies not only to football...but in regards to EVERYTHING. Vaccaro is very good in man coverage in the box against TEs, WRs, and RBs. He is also a sound tackler at the LOS and will be a perfect player against the spread.
But...there is no way that I can say with any confidence that he will be good in zone coverage. He did not get a chance to do it much in college...so I don't see how anyone can assume that. This defense got absolutely shredded last season on crossing patterns in middle and deep zones. The Redskin game still haunts me today. The Saints weren't destroyed by TEs (other than Gonzalez one game). And I honestly don't see how we are going to get better in that phase of the game with the addition of Vaccaro. He likely will not be playing FS...and if he is...he has extremely like experience playing that position. If we still have Jenkins playing cover-1 with Vaccaro playing in the box covering TEs and slot WRs...we will continue to be destroyed. Not to mention that most interceptions come in the way of zone coverage...because the defender is facing the ball. This is a big reason why Vaccaro did not have very good turnover numbers. So if Vaccaro does not prove his worth in zone coverage he will likely never be a playmaker. |
Last I checked we weren't running a zone scheme. |
Well technically we're running a main cover 1. Only the main part of the cover 1 stays, the single deep zone. Everything else is man coverage, with maybe a single linebacker in a zone in the short center of the field. With Ryan however its likely said linebacker will be blitzing. No it isn't a zone, but my point and I believe sammy knight's is that someone has to play it the one zone in th defense. I don't feel that Vacarro or Jenkins is that guy. Vacarro is better suited to play man coverage at SS and Jenkins in my opinion dime corner. The best player to play FS is Isa Abdul-Quddus. I know that no one here is as high on him as me, but give him a chance just like everyone is saying for Galette and Tez. He can't be worse than Jenkins. |
Bingo. FS will be playing lots of cover-1. Jenkins is awful at it. He would probably be best cover slot receivers or press on the outside. But the dude is awful in space, has horrible ball skills, and is lousy at determining angles with the ball in the air. That is a recipe for disaster as a cover-1 FS. IAQ CANNOT BE WORSE THAN JENKINS. Jenkins was the worst FS in the NFL last season. If IAQ doesn't improve our FS situation...we are going to be in a world of hurt again. |
Unfortunately, I adhere to this line of thinking (minus the supreme confidence in IAQ). I think Eric Reid will be the best safety from this class. Jenkins has proven he cannot be a free safety from his inability to grasp angles and read routes quickly. Those are two key components to being a good free safety.
And, like they said, I am not sold that Vaccaro has those components. I am obviously hoping that he does, and nothing would make me happier than me being wrong, but I don't see the potential for him to be anything more than an above average player. We don't need anymore above average players. We need a playmaker. I hope Vaccaro is the guy, but I have my doubts.
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whodatworm23
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | | krewebrees wrote: | | Spartica4Real wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | I'm taking the wait and see approach with Vaccaro...not only because I am not sold on Vaccaro, but also because I am not sold on the decision making of our front office/scouts on the defensive side of the ball.
I had a great feeling about Hicks and Jordan before they were even drafted because they dominated their level of competition. So when they were drafted its not like they were great finds. It could have just as easily been the blind squirrel (Payton, Loomis, scouts in regard to defensive decisions) finding a nut (Hicks and Jordan). More often than not...this regimen has repeatedly failed to find, draft, and produce talent on defense.
So...I have good reason to not completely trust the Vaccaro selection.
I am a strong believer that the best way to predict the future is to look at the past. That applies not only to football...but in regards to EVERYTHING. Vaccaro is very good in man coverage in the box against TEs, WRs, and RBs. He is also a sound tackler at the LOS and will be a perfect player against the spread.
But...there is no way that I can say with any confidence that he will be good in zone coverage. He did not get a chance to do it much in college...so I don't see how anyone can assume that. This defense got absolutely shredded last season on crossing patterns in middle and deep zones. The Redskin game still haunts me today. The Saints weren't destroyed by TEs (other than Gonzalez one game). And I honestly don't see how we are going to get better in that phase of the game with the addition of Vaccaro. He likely will not be playing FS...and if he is...he has extremely like experience playing that position. If we still have Jenkins playing cover-1 with Vaccaro playing in the box covering TEs and slot WRs...we will continue to be destroyed. Not to mention that most interceptions come in the way of zone coverage...because the defender is facing the ball. This is a big reason why Vaccaro did not have very good turnover numbers. So if Vaccaro does not prove his worth in zone coverage he will likely never be a playmaker. |
Last I checked we weren't running a zone scheme. |
Well technically we're running a main cover 1. Only the main part of the cover 1 stays, the single deep zone. Everything else is man coverage, with maybe a single linebacker in a zone in the short center of the field. With Ryan however its likely said linebacker will be blitzing. No it isn't a zone, but my point and I believe sammy knight's is that someone has to play it the one zone in th defense. I don't feel that Vacarro or Jenkins is that guy. Vacarro is better suited to play man coverage at SS and Jenkins in my opinion dime corner. The best player to play FS is Isa Abdul-Quddus. I know that no one here is as high on him as me, but give him a chance just like everyone is saying for Galette and Tez. He can't be worse than Jenkins. |
Bingo. FS will be playing lots of cover-1. Jenkins is awful at it. He would probably be best cover slot receivers or press on the outside. But the dude is awful in space, has horrible ball skills, and is lousy at determining angles with the ball in the air. That is a recipe for disaster as a cover-1 FS. IAQ CANNOT BE WORSE THAN JENKINS. Jenkins was the worst FS in the NFL last season. If IAQ doesn't improve our FS situation...we are going to be in a world of hurt again. |
Unfortunately, I adhere to this line of thinking (minus the supreme confidence in IAQ). I think Eric Reid will be the best safety from this class. Jenkins has proven he cannot be a free safety from his inability to grasp angles and read routes quickly. Those are two key components to being a good free safety.
And, like they said, I am not sold that Vaccaro has those components. I am obviously hoping that he does, and nothing would make me happier than me being wrong, but I don't see the potential for him to be anything more than an above average player. We don't need anymore above average players. We need a playmaker. I hope Vaccaro is the guy, but I have my doubts. |
I will say this, along your line of thinking... when the Saints were on the clock at 15 the pick was obviously down to 3 prospects. Vaccaro, Jones and Floyd. This draft was not considered loaded with potential playmakers but the (in your words) dreaded above average players.
Floyd was deemed not a good fit in the 34 and with good reason. Everyone was high on his potential but only as a penetrating tackle in a 43. They routinely pointed to the fact of him playing DE in a 34 at Florida for his severe lack of production so why would one consider that to change in the NFL?
Jarvis Jones was likely a hard pass and Vaccaro will undoubtably be always compared to him because of it but the fact remains that the Saints likiley had major concerns about his medical issues and his longevity in the league.
Then there was Vaccaro, clearly the best safety in the class. DO not get it twisted... I like Reid, Cyprien and Elam as much as the next guy but NONE of those players are as versatile or can cover like Vaccaro can, it is not even close. WHile it wasen't the sexy pick... the Saints landed the best player from the drafts deepest group at a position of need. Based on what was available at the time, Vaccaro was without a doubt the right pick for this franchise.
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Lombardi Gras
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Posts: 1066
Location: NS922 on the sig
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| Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| whodatworm23 wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | | krewebrees wrote: | | Spartica4Real wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | I'm taking the wait and see approach with Vaccaro...not only because I am not sold on Vaccaro, but also because I am not sold on the decision making of our front office/scouts on the defensive side of the ball.
I had a great feeling about Hicks and Jordan before they were even drafted because they dominated their level of competition. So when they were drafted its not like they were great finds. It could have just as easily been the blind squirrel (Payton, Loomis, scouts in regard to defensive decisions) finding a nut (Hicks and Jordan). More often than not...this regimen has repeatedly failed to find, draft, and produce talent on defense.
So...I have good reason to not completely trust the Vaccaro selection.
I am a strong believer that the best way to predict the future is to look at the past. That applies not only to football...but in regards to EVERYTHING. Vaccaro is very good in man coverage in the box against TEs, WRs, and RBs. He is also a sound tackler at the LOS and will be a perfect player against the spread.
But...there is no way that I can say with any confidence that he will be good in zone coverage. He did not get a chance to do it much in college...so I don't see how anyone can assume that. This defense got absolutely shredded last season on crossing patterns in middle and deep zones. The Redskin game still haunts me today. The Saints weren't destroyed by TEs (other than Gonzalez one game). And I honestly don't see how we are going to get better in that phase of the game with the addition of Vaccaro. He likely will not be playing FS...and if he is...he has extremely like experience playing that position. If we still have Jenkins playing cover-1 with Vaccaro playing in the box covering TEs and slot WRs...we will continue to be destroyed. Not to mention that most interceptions come in the way of zone coverage...because the defender is facing the ball. This is a big reason why Vaccaro did not have very good turnover numbers. So if Vaccaro does not prove his worth in zone coverage he will likely never be a playmaker. |
Last I checked we weren't running a zone scheme. |
Well technically we're running a main cover 1. Only the main part of the cover 1 stays, the single deep zone. Everything else is man coverage, with maybe a single linebacker in a zone in the short center of the field. With Ryan however its likely said linebacker will be blitzing. No it isn't a zone, but my point and I believe sammy knight's is that someone has to play it the one zone in th defense. I don't feel that Vacarro or Jenkins is that guy. Vacarro is better suited to play man coverage at SS and Jenkins in my opinion dime corner. The best player to play FS is Isa Abdul-Quddus. I know that no one here is as high on him as me, but give him a chance just like everyone is saying for Galette and Tez. He can't be worse than Jenkins. |
Bingo. FS will be playing lots of cover-1. Jenkins is awful at it. He would probably be best cover slot receivers or press on the outside. But the dude is awful in space, has horrible ball skills, and is lousy at determining angles with the ball in the air. That is a recipe for disaster as a cover-1 FS. IAQ CANNOT BE WORSE THAN JENKINS. Jenkins was the worst FS in the NFL last season. If IAQ doesn't improve our FS situation...we are going to be in a world of hurt again. |
Unfortunately, I adhere to this line of thinking (minus the supreme confidence in IAQ). I think Eric Reid will be the best safety from this class. Jenkins has proven he cannot be a free safety from his inability to grasp angles and read routes quickly. Those are two key components to being a good free safety.
And, like they said, I am not sold that Vaccaro has those components. I am obviously hoping that he does, and nothing would make me happier than me being wrong, but I don't see the potential for him to be anything more than an above average player. We don't need anymore above average players. We need a playmaker. I hope Vaccaro is the guy, but I have my doubts. |
I will say this, along your line of thinking... when the Saints were on the clock at 15 the pick was obviously down to 3 prospects. Vaccaro, Jones and Floyd. This draft was not considered loaded with potential playmakers but the (in your words) dreaded above average players.
Floyd was deemed not a good fit in the 34 and with good reason. Everyone was high on his potential but only as a penetrating tackle in a 43. They routinely pointed to the fact of him playing DE in a 34 at Florida for his severe lack of production so why would one consider that to change in the NFL?
Jarvis Jones was likely a hard pass and Vaccaro will undoubtably be always compared to him because of it but the fact remains that the Saints likiley had major concerns about his medical issues and his longevity in the league.
Then there was Vaccaro, clearly the best safety in the class. DO not get it twisted... I like Reid, Cyprien and Elam as much as the next guy but NONE of those players are as versatile or can cover like Vaccaro can, it is not even close. WHile it wasen't the sexy pick... the Saints landed the best player from the drafts deepest group at a position of need. Based on what was available at the time, Vaccaro was without a doubt the right pick for this franchise. |
I am not sold that Vaccaro will be the best safety from the class at all. This seems like a very good safety class. If he turns out to be the playmaker that creates turnovers and instills fear in opposing offenses...then great, but I don't see that out of him. First round players should be impact players. The Saints badly need someone who can lift the play of others around him. I don't think Vaccaro will be that guy.
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navysaintsfan
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 11393
Location: Frednecksburg, VA
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | whodatworm23 wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | | krewebrees wrote: | | Spartica4Real wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | I'm taking the wait and see approach with Vaccaro...not only because I am not sold on Vaccaro, but also because I am not sold on the decision making of our front office/scouts on the defensive side of the ball.
I had a great feeling about Hicks and Jordan before they were even drafted because they dominated their level of competition. So when they were drafted its not like they were great finds. It could have just as easily been the blind squirrel (Payton, Loomis, scouts in regard to defensive decisions) finding a nut (Hicks and Jordan). More often than not...this regimen has repeatedly failed to find, draft, and produce talent on defense.
So...I have good reason to not completely trust the Vaccaro selection.
I am a strong believer that the best way to predict the future is to look at the past. That applies not only to football...but in regards to EVERYTHING. Vaccaro is very good in man coverage in the box against TEs, WRs, and RBs. He is also a sound tackler at the LOS and will be a perfect player against the spread.
But...there is no way that I can say with any confidence that he will be good in zone coverage. He did not get a chance to do it much in college...so I don't see how anyone can assume that. This defense got absolutely shredded last season on crossing patterns in middle and deep zones. The Redskin game still haunts me today. The Saints weren't destroyed by TEs (other than Gonzalez one game). And I honestly don't see how we are going to get better in that phase of the game with the addition of Vaccaro. He likely will not be playing FS...and if he is...he has extremely like experience playing that position. If we still have Jenkins playing cover-1 with Vaccaro playing in the box covering TEs and slot WRs...we will continue to be destroyed. Not to mention that most interceptions come in the way of zone coverage...because the defender is facing the ball. This is a big reason why Vaccaro did not have very good turnover numbers. So if Vaccaro does not prove his worth in zone coverage he will likely never be a playmaker. |
Last I checked we weren't running a zone scheme. |
Well technically we're running a main cover 1. Only the main part of the cover 1 stays, the single deep zone. Everything else is man coverage, with maybe a single linebacker in a zone in the short center of the field. With Ryan however its likely said linebacker will be blitzing. No it isn't a zone, but my point and I believe sammy knight's is that someone has to play it the one zone in th defense. I don't feel that Vacarro or Jenkins is that guy. Vacarro is better suited to play man coverage at SS and Jenkins in my opinion dime corner. The best player to play FS is Isa Abdul-Quddus. I know that no one here is as high on him as me, but give him a chance just like everyone is saying for Galette and Tez. He can't be worse than Jenkins. |
Bingo. FS will be playing lots of cover-1. Jenkins is awful at it. He would probably be best cover slot receivers or press on the outside. But the dude is awful in space, has horrible ball skills, and is lousy at determining angles with the ball in the air. That is a recipe for disaster as a cover-1 FS. IAQ CANNOT BE WORSE THAN JENKINS. Jenkins was the worst FS in the NFL last season. If IAQ doesn't improve our FS situation...we are going to be in a world of hurt again. |
Unfortunately, I adhere to this line of thinking (minus the supreme confidence in IAQ). I think Eric Reid will be the best safety from this class. Jenkins has proven he cannot be a free safety from his inability to grasp angles and read routes quickly. Those are two key components to being a good free safety.
And, like they said, I am not sold that Vaccaro has those components. I am obviously hoping that he does, and nothing would make me happier than me being wrong, but I don't see the potential for him to be anything more than an above average player. We don't need anymore above average players. We need a playmaker. I hope Vaccaro is the guy, but I have my doubts. |
I will say this, along your line of thinking... when the Saints were on the clock at 15 the pick was obviously down to 3 prospects. Vaccaro, Jones and Floyd. This draft was not considered loaded with potential playmakers but the (in your words) dreaded above average players.
Floyd was deemed not a good fit in the 34 and with good reason. Everyone was high on his potential but only as a penetrating tackle in a 43. They routinely pointed to the fact of him playing DE in a 34 at Florida for his severe lack of production so why would one consider that to change in the NFL?
Jarvis Jones was likely a hard pass and Vaccaro will undoubtably be always compared to him because of it but the fact remains that the Saints likiley had major concerns about his medical issues and his longevity in the league.
Then there was Vaccaro, clearly the best safety in the class. DO not get it twisted... I like Reid, Cyprien and Elam as much as the next guy but NONE of those players are as versatile or can cover like Vaccaro can, it is not even close. WHile it wasen't the sexy pick... the Saints landed the best player from the drafts deepest group at a position of need. Based on what was available at the time, Vaccaro was without a doubt the right pick for this franchise. |
I am not sold that Vaccaro will be the best safety from the class at all. This seems like a very good safety class. If he turns out to be the playmaker that creates turnovers and instills fear in opposing offenses...then great, but I don't see that out of him. First round players should be impact players. The Saints badly need someone who can lift the play of others around him. I don't think Vaccaro will be that guy. |
A lot of Saints fans keep saying this, but NO ONE is giving an explanation outside of "A little feeling" they have. Can you tell us why you think that way?
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Lombardi Gras
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| navysaintsfan wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | whodatworm23 wrote: | | Lombardi Gras wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | | krewebrees wrote: | | Spartica4Real wrote: | | sammymvpknight wrote: | I'm taking the wait and see approach with Vaccaro...not only because I am not sold on Vaccaro, but also because I am not sold on the decision making of our front office/scouts on the defensive side of the ball.
I had a great feeling about Hicks and Jordan before they were even drafted because they dominated their level of competition. So when they were drafted its not like they were great finds. It could have just as easily been the blind squirrel (Payton, Loomis, scouts in regard to defensive decisions) finding a nut (Hicks and Jordan). More often than not...this regimen has repeatedly failed to find, draft, and produce talent on defense.
So...I have good reason to not completely trust the Vaccaro selection.
I am a strong believer that the best way to predict the future is to look at the past. That applies not only to football...but in regards to EVERYTHING. Vaccaro is very good in man coverage in the box against TEs, WRs, and RBs. He is also a sound tackler at the LOS and will be a perfect player against the spread.
But...there is no way that I can say with any confidence that he will be good in zone coverage. He did not get a chance to do it much in college...so I don't see how anyone can assume that. This defense got absolutely shredded last season on crossing patterns in middle and deep zones. The Redskin game still haunts me today. The Saints weren't destroyed by TEs (other than Gonzalez one game). And I honestly don't see how we are going to get better in that phase of the game with the addition of Vaccaro. He likely will not be playing FS...and if he is...he has extremely like experience playing that position. If we still have Jenkins playing cover-1 with Vaccaro playing in the box covering TEs and slot WRs...we will continue to be destroyed. Not to mention that most interceptions come in the way of zone coverage...because the defender is facing the ball. This is a big reason why Vaccaro did not have very good turnover numbers. So if Vaccaro does not prove his worth in zone coverage he will likely never be a playmaker. |
Last I checked we weren't running a zone scheme. |
Well technically we're running a main cover 1. Only the main part of the cover 1 stays, the single deep zone. Everything else is man coverage, with maybe a single linebacker in a zone in the short center of the field. With Ryan however its likely said linebacker will be blitzing. No it isn't a zone, but my point and I believe sammy knight's is that someone has to play it the one zone in th defense. I don't feel that Vacarro or Jenkins is that guy. Vacarro is better suited to play man coverage at SS and Jenkins in my opinion dime corner. The best player to play FS is Isa Abdul-Quddus. I know that no one here is as high on him as me, but give him a chance just like everyone is saying for Galette and Tez. He can't be worse than Jenkins. |
Bingo. FS will be playing lots of cover-1. Jenkins is awful at it. He would probably be best cover slot receivers or press on the outside. But the dude is awful in space, has horrible ball skills, and is lousy at determining angles with the ball in the air. That is a recipe for disaster as a cover-1 FS. IAQ CANNOT BE WORSE THAN JENKINS. Jenkins was the worst FS in the NFL last season. If IAQ doesn't improve our FS situation...we are going to be in a world of hurt again. |
Unfortunately, I adhere to this line of thinking (minus the supreme confidence in IAQ). I think Eric Reid will be the best safety from this class. Jenkins has proven he cannot be a free safety from his inability to grasp angles and read routes quickly. Those are two key components to being a good free safety.
And, like they said, I am not sold that Vaccaro has those components. I am obviously hoping that he does, and nothing would make me happier than me being wrong, but I don't see the potential for him to be anything more than an above average player. We don't need anymore above average players. We need a playmaker. I hope Vaccaro is the guy, but I have my doubts. |
I will say this, along your line of thinking... when the Saints were on the clock at 15 the pick was obviously down to 3 prospects. Vaccaro, Jones and Floyd. This draft was not considered loaded with potential playmakers but the (in your words) dreaded above average players.
Floyd was deemed not a good fit in the 34 and with good reason. Everyone was high on his potential but only as a penetrating tackle in a 43. They routinely pointed to the fact of him playing DE in a 34 at Florida for his severe lack of production so why would one consider that to change in the NFL?
Jarvis Jones was likely a hard pass and Vaccaro will undoubtably be always compared to him because of it but the fact remains that the Saints likiley had major concerns about his medical issues and his longevity in the league.
Then there was Vaccaro, clearly the best safety in the class. DO not get it twisted... I like Reid, Cyprien and Elam as much as the next guy but NONE of those players are as versatile or can cover like Vaccaro can, it is not even close. WHile it wasen't the sexy pick... the Saints landed the best player from the drafts deepest group at a position of need. Based on what was available at the time, Vaccaro was without a doubt the right pick for this franchise. |
I am not sold that Vaccaro will be the best safety from the class at all. This seems like a very good safety class. If he turns out to be the playmaker that creates turnovers and instills fear in opposing offenses...then great, but I don't see that out of him. First round players should be impact players. The Saints badly need someone who can lift the play of others around him. I don't think Vaccaro will be that guy. |
A lot of Saints fans keep saying this, but NO ONE is giving an explanation outside of "A little feeling" they have. Can you tell us why you think that way? |
There are arguments for both sides. The stats look, overall, impressive. The real question for me is whether he was a part of the reason that Texas defensive unit was so sub-par, or whether he was just put into an unfortunate situation. Was he making up for others mistakes, or making them on his own? From what I have seen out of him, he seems to be a solid player. Solid. He makes the tackles he should, and seems to be smart on the whole. However, that was in a different system with less talented and athletic players (on both sides of the ball - I admit that he was also surrounded by lesser talent, which his supporters will use as a rationalization for some of his mistakes).
I want a safety to be able to cover sideline to sideline, and recover. If Vaccaro makes a mistake, I am not sold that he can recover. I am not sold that he is that type of athlete, the hybrid that everyone touting him seems to think. I think he is another Roman Harper with a bit more athleticism.
Now, I like Harper, and think a lot of the criticism of him is undeserved. However, I do think that players like Harper are relatively easily found. Someone who can hit hard and diagnose run plays from the safety slot is not a unique skill set. If he is, to make things simple, just a more athletic Roman Harper, then he is not worthy of a first round pick. Arguably not even a second. My criticism of the pick is that I'm not sold that he will improve our pass defense, which is something we desperately need. I think he will be an above average player. I am tired of above average players. Shoot for the stars. Players with potential. Safe picks do not win championships.
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domepatrol91
Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 5016
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | I think he is another Roman Harper with a bit more athleticism. |
A "bit" more athleticism? I'd say he's significantly more athletic.
And what is the biggest thing holding Harper back? His athleticism.
| Lombardi Gras wrote: | | My criticism of the pick is that I'm not sold that he will improve our pass defense, which is something we desperately need. I think he will be an above average player. |
How will an above average safety not improve our pass defense? We easily have to worst safety tandem in the league.
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Harper41
Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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Location: Roll Tide Country
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Vacarro is a much better prospect then Mark Barron who went #7 overall last year so...I don't see the issue everyone has.
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