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Is the Thursday/Friday draft stupid?
Yes, they should change it back, they are ruining Christmas!
58%
 58%  [ 7 ]
No Beck, you're just old. No one cares how far you had to walk to school.
41%
 41%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 12

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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
THE DUKE wrote:
BengalsEra wrote:
Bell is my favorite back in this draft. I know he wouldnt have benefitted the Bengals a whole lot because they already have BJGE. I'm just mad he went to Pittsburgh. Brick wall


Bell is a 230 lb finesse RB.


This is a commonly used misnomer. Steven Jackson is a finesse RB if Bell is one. Now, Bell on the second level and in the secondary tries harder to avoid tacklers than Jackson but Bell is not a finesse runner. He's a grinder. If you have quick feet and a nasty spin move, why not use them? Bell will churn out yardage with size and power when necessary and he'll make you miss when necessary. He's a good, solid, reliable HB. In fact, I'd say he's very comparable to Steven. Not quite as athletic but very close and not quite as mean but close.

I think he'll do well in Pitt if their OL is up to par.


He is a typical big Steeler RB in the Jerome Bettis/ Barry Foster mould.

With Bell/ Dwyer and Redman in the backfield and an improved line, Pittsburghs' run game will be better this season, and will run over some folks IMO. Just hope its not us.

I like Gio Bernard, but would have preferred Bell and Ellington later.
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Last edited by LondonBengal on Wed May 01, 2013 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Skinsfan13


Joined: 18 May 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wrminning wrote:
Beck Bristow wrote:
wrminning wrote:
LondonBengal wrote:
RedGreenShow wrote:
Pittsburgh made a mistake not drafting Lacy.

Apparently not.

Lacy has a problem with a lingering toe injury that the Steelers were not happy with.

Bell just reminds me of that typical big Pittsburgh back like Bettis and Foster that have been running all over us for years. I appreciate we have a better defence now, but Bell does impress me. Obviously a completely different back to Bernard.


One of the problems with drafting a Rb is that they have short shelf lifes, the body can only take so much pounding. Now keeping that in mind look at the carries Bell got in College. I won't be suprised if he had a shorter shelf life then the average Rb which is 5 years. I think Pitsburg took a gamble with several of their picks that may play off now but not in the long run. Bell is another North south runner whoses skills are Simlair to "the lawfirm" so he adds nothing to our Offense, we made the right pick!


My only concern about Bernard is where the 2 other guys that most of us liked in a similar role ended up getting drafted. I like Bernard, but getting Arthur Brown and Franklin would have been outstanding.



I agree but I don't think Marvin sees it that way, I would have picked Franklin over Bernard same type of runner, good hands and a better blocker and of course that would have given us a chance at Brown.


The major difference between Franklin and Bernard is lower body strength. Gio has a deceptively thick lower half and that manifests itself in his balance and ability to work his way through trash near the line of scrimmage. Franklin has a really spindly lower half, and it affects his balance (he's routinely tripped up by arm tackles), and his ability to churn through clutter. His legs go dead on contact quite often.

Btw, I disagree with the notion that Gio isn't elite at anything. To me he has elite foot quickness, great, great balance, and the best vision in this rb class. He's not CJ Spiller when it comes to raw speed, but he's field fast and he has a burst of speed that's comparable to Lesean McCoy. In fact, their workout numbers were close to identical. Not saying he's McCoy because LeSean had a frame that could add a little weight coming out of Pitt and thats made a difference in him becoming a full-time starter, but coming out of college I think that they were comparable in a lot of ways.

Enjoy

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=vwkk8N9Yd5s
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theJ


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skinsfan13 wrote:
The major difference between Franklin and Bernard is lower body strength. Gio has a deceptively thick lower half and that manifests itself in his balance and ability to work his way through trash near the line of scrimmage. Franklin has a really spindly lower half, and it affects his balance (he's routinely tripped up by arm tackles), and his ability to churn through clutter. His legs go dead on contact quite often.

Btw, I disagree with the notion that Gio isn't elite at anything. To me he has elite foot quickness, great, great balance, and the best vision in this rb class. He's not CJ Spiller when it comes to raw speed, but he's field fast and he has a burst of speed that's comparable to Lesean McCoy. In fact, their workout numbers were close to identical. Not saying he's McCoy because LeSean had a frame that could add a little weight coming out of Pitt and thats made a difference in him becoming a full-time starter, but coming out of college I think that they were comparable in a lot of ways.

Enjoy

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=vwkk8N9Yd5s

When the pick was made, i came on this site and read the comments. I thought by the comments that he was some poor man's speed back similar to Bernard Scott.

Then i watched the highlight videos. He's got some speed, but that's clearly not what makes him successful. I agree with the comment about his vision and balance. At least by the highlights, those intangibles are top rate.

He's also a back that could take an NFL beating. I think the coaching staff liked him because they thought they could hand him the starting gig when Green-Ellis is done. Unlike Scott, who was pretty much limited to a handful of carries per game.
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Skinsfan13


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This actually shows his game speed a little better. Balance too.

http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=mm4jvj11q#/watch?v=yqYpVoF5Ql0
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INbengalfan


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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Do the Bengals believe DE skills are more prized than LB skills, and that's why they went DE @ #53 ?


Of course they do. You also pay top DEs almost twice what top LBs make. If the DEs do their jo, it can mask LB deficiencies, but not the other way around in a 4-3.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INbengalfan wrote:
LondonBengal wrote:
Do the Bengals believe DE skills are more prized than LB skills, and that's why they went DE @ #53 ?


Of course they do. You also pay top DEs almost twice what top LBs make. If the DEs do their job, it can mask LB deficiencies, but not the other way around in a 4-3.


Just reflecting on why so many of us had Arthur Brown or a LB ahead of a DE in our mocks. Its great that the Bengals seem to be planning ahead @ DE when they may have to make a decision on Johnson or Dunlap next year.

We obviously thought LB skills were atop DE skills in 2008 when we took Keith Rivers @ #9. Just reflects what players are available when you pick I suppose.
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LondonBengal


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skinsfan13 wrote:
.......I disagree with the notion that Gio isn't elite at anything. To me he has elite foot quickness, great, great balance, and the best vision in this rb class. He's not CJ Spiller when it comes to raw speed, but he's field fast and he has a burst of speed that's comparable to Lesean McCoy. In fact, their workout numbers were close to identical. Not saying he's McCoy because LeSean had a frame that could add a little weight coming out of Pitt and thats made a difference in him becoming a full-time starter, but coming out of college I think that they were comparable in a lot of ways.

Seen quite a few folks comparing Bernard to Ray Rice. Similar deceptive speed, similar shiftiness, similar hands, similar size etc.

Anyone else buying the Rice comparisons ?
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Skinsfan13


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Skinsfan13 wrote:
.......I disagree with the notion that Gio isn't elite at anything. To me he has elite foot quickness, great, great balance, and the best vision in this rb class. He's not CJ Spiller when it comes to raw speed, but he's field fast and he has a burst of speed that's comparable to Lesean McCoy. In fact, their workout numbers were close to identical. Not saying he's McCoy because LeSean had a frame that could add a little weight coming out of Pitt and thats made a difference in him becoming a full-time starter, but coming out of college I think that they were comparable in a lot of ways.

Seen quite a few folks comparing Bernard to Ray Rice. Similar deceptive speed, similar shiftiness, similar hands, similar size etc.

Anyone else buying the Rice comparisons ?


I buy it, and more importantly, I think the Bengals brass buy that comparison. He's probably a little quicker than Rice with a little less physicality, but he's just as versatile, he's much more thickly built and physical than people seem to give him credit for (again, I think that's why you guys seemingly valued him so much more than Franklin, Bernard is a really powerful dude for his size. As they say about Rice, he's short, not small), and he's just as creative a runner, maybe more so. He'll have to prove that he can carry a load comparable to Rice to give further credence to the comparison, but look at this game footage:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0gCUHbM_3cA

Less flash than in most of Gio's games, generally he's good for a long run or two in most of them, but you can see the underrated toughness and power that he runs with. And keep in mind that that's 2011 game action, he's likely a good bit stronger than that at this point.
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ark23


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theJ wrote:
Skinsfan13 wrote:
The major difference between Franklin and Bernard is lower body strength. Gio has a deceptively thick lower half and that manifests itself in his balance and ability to work his way through trash near the line of scrimmage. Franklin has a really spindly lower half, and it affects his balance (he's routinely tripped up by arm tackles), and his ability to churn through clutter. His legs go dead on contact quite often.

Btw, I disagree with the notion that Gio isn't elite at anything. To me he has elite foot quickness, great, great balance, and the best vision in this rb class. He's not CJ Spiller when it comes to raw speed, but he's field fast and he has a burst of speed that's comparable to Lesean McCoy. In fact, their workout numbers were close to identical. Not saying he's McCoy because LeSean had a frame that could add a little weight coming out of Pitt and thats made a difference in him becoming a full-time starter, but coming out of college I think that they were comparable in a lot of ways.

Enjoy

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=vwkk8N9Yd5s

When the pick was made, i came on this site and read the comments. I thought by the comments that he was some poor man's speed back similar to Bernard Scott.

Then i watched the highlight videos. He's got some speed, but that's clearly not what makes him successful. I agree with the comment about his vision and balance. At least by the highlights, those intangibles are top rate.

He's also a back that could take an NFL beating. I think the coaching staff liked him because they thought they could hand him the starting gig when Green-Ellis is done. Unlike Scott, who was pretty much limited to a handful of carries per game.

He has limited top end speed, I do think he has good balance and a fairly thick lower body but he's a bit tight hipped as well and despite the big plays he made in college I don't think he's a splash play/explosive runner. He had a lot of gaping holes with Jonathan Cooper and James Hurst along his offensive line and he ran behind them a ton. His vision is nice but I don't see elite traits from Bernard aside from a great understanding of how to get open against zone coverage as a receiver and great balance. With that said I do think he can be a solid back in the NFL, not elite, but solid - especially making an impact as a receiver out of the backfield

I'm not sure about the durability because he has had a lot of injuries littered in his past. Tore his ACL as a freshman that led to him redshirting, missed parts or all of three games this past year and had shoulder and leg injuries. He's good in a committee where we can give him 12-17 touches rather than make him a feature back.

I disagree with the nation that Bernard has elite feet/lateral agility though. He doesn't explode in and out of cuts, is a bit leggy when changing directions. I love his patience, he does have good vision and receiving ability and that's why he's a good player but I had a fourth round grade on him.
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theJ


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ark23 wrote:
I'm not sure about the durability because he has had a lot of injuries littered in his past. Tore his ACL as a freshman that led to him redshirting, missed parts or all of three games this past year and had shoulder and leg injuries. He's good in a committee where we can give him 12-17 touches rather than make him a feature back.

History has shown that college injuries mean squat when translating to the NFL. Chris Perry never missed a game in college IIRC.

I was just saying that he looks like a thick dude, so he looks like he can take the beating. At the very least, the coaches won't be afraid to give him more carries, unlike Bernard Scott.
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Skinsfan13


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ark23 wrote:
theJ wrote:
Skinsfan13 wrote:
The major difference between Franklin and Bernard is lower body strength. Gio has a deceptively thick lower half and that manifests itself in his balance and ability to work his way through trash near the line of scrimmage. Franklin has a really spindly lower half, and it affects his balance (he's routinely tripped up by arm tackles), and his ability to churn through clutter. His legs go dead on contact quite often.

Btw, I disagree with the notion that Gio isn't elite at anything. To me he has elite foot quickness, great, great balance, and the best vision in this rb class. He's not CJ Spiller when it comes to raw speed, but he's field fast and he has a burst of speed that's comparable to Lesean McCoy. In fact, their workout numbers were close to identical. Not saying he's McCoy because LeSean had a frame that could add a little weight coming out of Pitt and thats made a difference in him becoming a full-time starter, but coming out of college I think that they were comparable in a lot of ways.

Enjoy

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=vwkk8N9Yd5s

When the pick was made, i came on this site and read the comments. I thought by the comments that he was some poor man's speed back similar to Bernard Scott.

Then i watched the highlight videos. He's got some speed, but that's clearly not what makes him successful. I agree with the comment about his vision and balance. At least by the highlights, those intangibles are top rate.

He's also a back that could take an NFL beating. I think the coaching staff liked him because they thought they could hand him the starting gig when Green-Ellis is done. Unlike Scott, who was pretty much limited to a handful of carries per game.

He has limited top end speed, I do think he has good balance and a fairly thick lower body but he's a bit tight hipped as well and despite the big plays he made in college I don't think he's a splash play/explosive runner. He had a lot of gaping holes with Jonathan Cooper and James Hurst along his offensive line and he ran behind them a ton. His vision is nice but I don't see elite traits from Bernard aside from a great understanding of how to get open against zone coverage as a receiver and great balance. With that said I do think he can be a solid back in the NFL, not elite, but solid - especially making an impact as a receiver out of the backfield

I'm not sure about the durability because he has had a lot of injuries littered in his past. Tore his ACL as a freshman that led to him redshirting, missed parts or all of three games this past year and had shoulder and leg injuries. He's good in a committee where we can give him 12-17 touches rather than make him a feature back.

I disagree with the nation that Bernard has elite feet/lateral agility though. He doesn't explode in and out of cuts, is a bit leggy when changing directions. I love his patience, he does have good vision and receiving ability and that's why he's a good player but I had a fourth round grade on him.


We just have two different evaluations I guess, which is fine and what makes this process fun to be honest. I think Gio is going to break a number of long runs, even at this graduated level. Not to belabor the point, but LeSean McCoy, a comparable prospect in the height/weight/ speed category coming out (McCoy actually ran a 4.51 at his pro day. We all know that pro day times are typically appreciably quicker than what guys usually produce at the Combine, so I think it's fair to say that he would've been a 4.55-4.6 guy had he run in Indy), busts chunk runs with pretty good regularity. Bernard won't have any problem making a guy miss in the hole and going for 20, 30, 40 yards (maybe longer on occasion) at this level. Chris Perry didnt and he was a mid 4.5 guy. Ray Rice doesn't and he's a mid 4.5 guy and on and on.

I also disagree with you significantly about Bernard not having elite feet. Mayock thinks he has the best feet in the draft and I echo that sentiment. I'm not sure I've ever heard a 5'8 dude with short legs and quick feet described as "leggy", but in any event I completely disagree with the description. IMO, Bernard effortlessly changes direction. He effortlessly shuffles laterally when picking a hole and he has a filthy jump cut. He also stops and starts very quickly. There is some stiffness in his upper-half, mostly a product of him being really muscular up top (he benched 225 19 times), but his lower half, especially his feet are exactly what you'd want a space player to have sans the elite speed.

I agree completely with you about the durability issue, I'll believe that he can be a full-time back at this level when I see him do it. McCoy, Rice and MJD had to prove it to the league and he'll have to as well. Even with those concerns though I had a solid second round grade on him and thought at worst he'd be off the board sometime in the third. It appears the bengals gave him a similar grade.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skinsfan13 wrote:
I agree completely with you about the durability issue,
Having gone through the trials and tribulations of injury riven backs like Chris Perry/ KiJana Carter/ Kenny Irons over the years, I just hope beyond hope that Bernard can stay healthy.
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