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Lets be real for a second
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ch8878


Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 2620
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raiderslyfer wrote:
VELDHEER played right tackle and center....Volmer is still stuck ay right tackle. Michael Oher was a player that vould play either side. HEY food for thought all of is here have seen veldheers pictures maybe hes preparing himself to move to the right side where Tony Sparano could make him a perennial pro bowler. Picking one of these tackles helps the defense to especially one that is as weak as ours is. Davis wants to pattern the team off the niners well all there linemen are first round draft choices.
.


Veldheer has never played RT
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ch8878


Joined: 12 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Lets be real for a second Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Usually even if a left tackle is drafted he will play at RT


Really when has this ever happened ?

Can you name some ?

I know last year Matt Kalil was drafted #5 overall after the Vikings traded back from #4 to #5 with the Browns started day 1 as LT.

Also Matt Kalil was a huge factor in the Vikings playoff push and played great in a division with Clay Matthews Jr. and Julius Peppers.


You missed a huge part of my quote off and probably the most important caveat.......

Darbsk wrote:
Usually even if a left tackle is drafted he will play at RT at least initially and especially with Veldheer already established in the role Fisher may have to stay there. Some would say a RT isn't worth the #3 either. Personally i really like Joeckel and Fisher and would be happy with either.



Those listed above and numerous other college LT's have started their NFL careers on the right side (probably Gallery is the most well known to us, also Khalif Barnes was drafted as a LT) and this would probably be the case with the Oakland Raiders next year IF we drafted a tackle because of Veldheer.

My point being that very few tackles taken actually start and contribute at a high level straight away at LT. As the original poster was commenting on value and how taking a tackle was the best value I thought this was relevant as a RT is obviously less highly valued than a LT.


Top 5 players very rarely if ever play other positions then LT if they are drafted as LT.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 37056
Location: Boston, MA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ch8878 wrote:
raiderslyfer wrote:
VELDHEER played right tackle and center....Volmer is still stuck ay right tackle. Michael Oher was a player that vould play either side. HEY food for thought all of is here have seen veldheers pictures maybe hes preparing himself to move to the right side where Tony Sparano could make him a perennial pro bowler. Picking one of these tackles helps the defense to especially one that is as weak as ours is. Davis wants to pattern the team off the niners well all there linemen are first round draft choices.
.


Veldheer has never played RT


Pretty sure we rotated him in there at one point.
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ch8878


Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 2620
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
raiderslyfer wrote:
VELDHEER played right tackle and center....Volmer is still stuck ay right tackle. Michael Oher was a player that vould play either side. HEY food for thought all of is here have seen veldheers pictures maybe hes preparing himself to move to the right side where Tony Sparano could make him a perennial pro bowler. Picking one of these tackles helps the defense to especially one that is as weak as ours is. Davis wants to pattern the team off the niners well all there linemen are first round draft choices.
.


Veldheer has never played RT


Pretty sure we rotated him in there at one point.


Pretty sure it was Campbell they tried at RT you guys must be getting the 2 mixed up.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ch8878 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
raiderslyfer wrote:
VELDHEER played right tackle and center....Volmer is still stuck ay right tackle. Michael Oher was a player that vould play either side. HEY food for thought all of is here have seen veldheers pictures maybe hes preparing himself to move to the right side where Tony Sparano could make him a perennial pro bowler. Picking one of these tackles helps the defense to especially one that is as weak as ours is. Davis wants to pattern the team off the niners well all there linemen are first round draft choices.
.


Veldheer has never played RT


Pretty sure we rotated him in there at one point.


Pretty sure it was Campbell they tried at RT you guys must be getting the 2 mixed up.


I don't think Campbell ever got meaningful snaps. But we definitely rotated Veldheer. I think you're right though; it was at LT for a drive here and there.
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Dreadymatt


Joined: 05 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

picking number 3 could turn out to be a blessing - Joekel, Fisher and Star are all equally talent imo, so as long as we aint stupid (fingers crossed), we get one. If its an OT, we play him at RT for a year, giving us more bargaining power on JV next year
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dreadymatt wrote:
picking number 3 could turn out to be a blessing - Joekel, Fisher and Star are all equally talent imo, so as long as we aint stupid (fingers crossed), we get one. If its an OT, we play him at RT for a year, giving us more bargaining power on JV next year


What bargaining power? Hey JV, we drafted your replacement #3 overall this year, want to move to RT or sign a lucrative contract in FA?

They would have to pay JV LT money regardless, because another team will. It gives them room to maneuver if he leaves, but then you open the hole at RT again.

That's why I don't like Fisher. Best case scenario, you re-sign JV, he stays at LT and Fisher rides out his rookie contract then bolts for LT money.

There is not a way that I see to lock down both players/positions long term.
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101Raider


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
picking number 3 could turn out to be a blessing - Joekel, Fisher and Star are all equally talent imo, so as long as we aint stupid (fingers crossed), we get one. If its an OT, we play him at RT for a year, giving us more bargaining power on JV next year


What bargaining power? Hey JV, we drafted your replacement #3 overall this year, want to move to RT or sign a lucrative contract in FA?

They would have to pay JV LT money regardless, because another team will. It gives them room to maneuver if he leaves, but then you open the hole at RT again.

That's why I don't like Fisher. Best case scenario, you re-sign JV, he stays at LT and Fisher rides out his rookie contract then bolts for LT money.

There is not a way that I see to lock down both players/positions long term.


I agree, I'm worried that grabbing Fisher will end up blowing up in our faces when it comes to negotiating JV's contract
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Darbsk


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

101Raider wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
picking number 3 could turn out to be a blessing - Joekel, Fisher and Star are all equally talent imo, so as long as we aint stupid (fingers crossed), we get one. If its an OT, we play him at RT for a year, giving us more bargaining power on JV next year


What bargaining power? Hey JV, we drafted your replacement #3 overall this year, want to move to RT or sign a lucrative contract in FA?

They would have to pay JV LT money regardless, because another team will. It gives them room to maneuver if he leaves, but then you open the hole at RT again.

That's why I don't like Fisher. Best case scenario, you re-sign JV, he stays at LT and Fisher rides out his rookie contract then bolts for LT money.

There is not a way that I see to lock down both players/positions long term.


I agree, I'm worried that grabbing Fisher will end up blowing up in our faces when it comes to negotiating JV's contract


Good point BP and I think it is an issue, Veldheer looks like he could be a real mauler in the run game at RT especially after he bulked up so much, he also said he would play RT if that was for the best of the team (something no doubt his agent wouldn't have wanted him to say!).

It then becomes a case of do you pay Veldheer LT money and keep him at RT (assuming his agent is playing hardball) or do we move Fisher to RT thus devaluing the #3 pick alluded to earlier, also it makes sense that Fisher may want to move and earn more at LT when his contract comes up meaning we could be looking to replace both tackles in one offseason in another 5 years if veldheer signs a 4 year deal for example.
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raiderslyfer


Joined: 03 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno.....I think getting another OT keeps Veldheer here. Hes one of the top 3 players on the team and with 70 mill in capspace we can give him whatever he wants. The plus side to drafting a OT is that if he leaves we still have a elite OT. WE will offer him somwthing in the 10 mill a year range and sign him longterm no doubt in my mind. The 70 mill has to be spent regardless within the next two seasons and thats why I dont think we quarrel over paying Veldeer top dollar whether he plays RT or LT he will be a Raider long term you might even see him sign a longterm extension after the draft to ensure him that if we move him to RT he is forever in Reggies plans. He will not see the market.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Raiders regard Fisher as one of the best talents in the draft then they should draft him without consideration of Veldheer. Veldheer will be fine and he will earn his money either way. What you don't want to do is pass on Fisher even though you really like him only to have Veldheer regress like Doug Free did.

In 2010 Free was ranked #4 OT at LT saw USC OT Tyron Smith drafted that off-season anyways. Regressed in 2011 and went from LTotF to presently on the bubble. Jake Long went from #2 in 2010, #21 in 2011, #46 in 2012 to kick'n rocks. Amazing. Point being is you can never have too many guys capable of playing LT.

Mckenzie is creative. If Fisher is too weak to play RT as a rookie in 2013, the Raiders have enough money to franchise Veldheer for multiple seasons. In addition, making Veldheer one of the highest paid RTs in the game is also an option given the cap room the Raiders will soon have + an escalator if Veldheer ends up as a fixture back on the left. I would love a trade back but Fisher is one of the few players I could get behind at #3 as well.
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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reddevil


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
If the Raiders regard Fisher as one of the best talents in the draft then they should draft him without consideration of Veldheer. Veldheer will be fine and he will earn his money either way. What you don't want to do is pass on Fisher even though you really like him only to have Veldheer regress like Doug Free did.

In 2010 Free was ranked #4 OT at LT saw USC OT Tyron Smith drafted that off-season anyways. Regressed in 2011 and went from LTotF to presently on the bubble. Jake Long went from #2 in 2010, #21 in 2011, #46 in 2012 to kick'n rocks. Amazing. Point being is you can never have too many guys capable of playing LT.

Mckenzie is creative. If Fisher is too weak to play RT as a rookie in 2013, the Raiders have enough money to franchise Veldheer for multiple seasons. In addition, making Veldheer one of the highest paid RTs in the game is also an option given the cap room the Raiders will soon have + an escalator if Veldheer ends up as a fixture back on the left. I would love a trade back but Fisher is one of the few players I could get behind at #3 as well.


+1. Spot on IMO. I would see it as a worry if we didn't have the cap room next year, but as we do, and loads of it, I can't see Reggie letting Veldheer go. He doesn't even actually have to say outright who his no.1 LT is. He could sign Veldheer up and say may the best man win.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Screw value, you take the best player period.

Guys are only considered reaches years after the draft. Sure theres gonna be the whiney fans and media outlets, but if you take a guy who helps turn your team from a 4 win team to a 10-11 win team does value really matter?

You take guys who will make this team better, if its a right tackle or a guard or a Defensive Tackle.
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RunDmc23


Joined: 25 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Fisher has to be the pick, Veldeer and Fisher perfect bookends for Bridgewater to come in and dominate!!
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Raiiiiidersssss


Joined: 23 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RunDmc23 wrote:
Eric Fisher has to be the pick, Veldeer and Fisher perfect bookends for Bridgewater to come in and dominate!!


Oh man that would be awesome
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