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Seahawk fan here, curious about your defense
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-ALL-DAY wrote:
y2lamanaki wrote:
MARIO MANGELINI wrote:
Thanks everyone for treating me nice and giving me some good responses. They were really helpful, thanks. Didn't know Aldon's torn labrum had that big of an effect on your defense. Anyways, all responses are appreciated! Smile


To be honest, I think this was more of a problem than Justin Smith in the playoffs. But the two both being injured really made it worse.


Yep, I was one of the few saying that as Aldon's injury happened. No disrespect to Justin Smith, but it was the emergence of Aldon that took this defense to another level. Now, obviously Justin along with Patrick, NaVarro, and the rest of the guys were huge as well. However, our biggest weakness before Aldon was drafted was the lack of pass rush. Once he tore his labrum, the lack of pass rush showed yet again. The run defense was fine even with Justin not being fully healthy.


Without Justin bullrushing his man into the backfield, often drawing double teams, I don't think Aldon gets quite so many sacks. I think it may be more of a "both events conspired to drain the power out of our pass rush" situation. Both were hurt and those two contribute most to our pass rush.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

y2lamanaki wrote:
MARIO MANGELINI wrote:
Thanks everyone for treating me nice and giving me some good responses. They were really helpful, thanks. Didn't know Aldon's torn labrum had that big of an effect on your defense. Anyways, all responses are appreciated! Smile


To be honest, I think this was more of a problem than Justin Smith in the playoffs. But the two both being injured really made it worse.



And it wasn't just Justin and Aldon. Justin's two primary back-ups were injured as well. RJF had mostly played NT all year, subbing at DE on occasion. Dobbs was Justin's primary back-up, but was on the IR, and Tukuafu was the other, and he was usually on the injury report week after week as well. People point at Justin's injury, and some acknowledge Aldon's as well. But in reality, we had four injuries impacting that side of the defense. And that's not counting Parys Haralson's absence all year.
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49ersfan


Joined: 21 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forge wrote:
Bodhi wrote:
I think I'm much more concerned over Justin Smith's decline this most. Over those last few games and the playoffs, the defense was well below average. And while I trust Baalke, the chances of drafting the next Justin Smith are slim to none

Of course that just means our identity as a team has to evolve. So relying more on an explosive Kaepernick led offense like we did in the playoffs than a slow ball control offense like we did during the regular season


I don't think that will be a problem; if Kaep progresses, and I don't think any of us have any reason to believe he won't, I think we are capable of putting up 30 a game and having a very Saints/Packers type offense with just the personnel we have currently. I think one of the Matts indicated that Harbaugh was looking to use fewer two tight end formations this year (which basically means nothing since Harbaugh isn't necessarily the type to give that information out without having some sort of Intelligence agency like security clearance). If that is true though, I would expect to see more 3 wr sets and more explosiveness; we will always be a balanced running/passing team though. Harbaugh just seems to prefer that; he was the same way at stanford and had a guy considered to be the best college qb in a decade.


Whats crazy is "only" 30 points would have lost us the Patriots, Seahawks, Packers (including Kaep's pick 6), and Ravens (including Jones return TD) games. Thats how atrocious our D was in the last 6 games. They gave up 27 PPG over that 6 game span (Patriots to SB) and we still went 4-2..We scored 30.5 PPG over that same span (including a 13 point game against the Hawks).

Obviously Justin is a major key to our defense. It didn't help that our DB's got beaten or out muscled on just about every deep ball thrown against us, Aldon was injured, and we either had no depth or refused to play them. Quality of opponents played a big factor too (Brady, Wilson, Rodgers, Ryan, Flacco in 5 out of 6 games is BRUTAL). Not much we can do about injuries but we need more of a rotation and possibly a more effective backup plan at both DE and OLB.

i think Justin probably has 2-3 high quality years left, but he's only signed for 1 at the moment.
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49ersfan2152


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-ALL-DAY wrote:
Injuries to the Smith bros, but mainly the torn labrum to Aldon Smith which killed our pass rush. Then for some reason we had more mis-communication in the back end during the postseason, than we had for the entire regular season.


The miss-communication was odd in postseason, as you said we didnt have it in the regular season an prob was some combo of little experience in playoffs/fatigue an coaching
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissooner49er wrote:
Without Justin bullrushing his man into the backfield, often drawing double teams, I don't think Aldon gets quite so many sacks. I think it may be more of a "both events conspired to drain the power out of our pass rush" situation. Both were hurt and those two contribute most to our pass rush.


Justin Smith is not only one of the best 3-4 DEs in the game, but he is one of the best players in the league as well. His presence is felt in the biggest ways. However, Aldon Smith's ability to get to the QB took this defense to another level. Even when he wasn't getting sacks, QBs were often times getting the ball rid of before they wanted too. Well, you get a guy who is severely affected and is a shell of himself, teams could block him one on one.
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49ersfan2152


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think our defense is gonna be great again will be great for a long time. We need a FS an a eventual replacement at SS. A DE to replace Smith eventually. I think we are fine at NT with Dorsey an Ian Williams. Tho id personally take a NT in the middle rds.

Seahawks also have a great D but I think they arnt build as well as we are long term especially when you factor in the number of picks we have this year an will next year an factor in that many of them this year will be used on our D.
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rudyZ


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

49ersfan2152 wrote:
I think our defense is gonna be great again will be great for a long time. We need a FS an a eventual replacement at SS. A DE to replace Smith eventually. I think we are fine at NT with Dorsey an Ian Williams. Tho id personally take a NT in the middle rds.

Seahawks also have a great D but I think they arnt build as well as we are long term especially when you factor in the number of picks we have this year an will next year an factor in that many of them this year will be used on our D.



Especially considering how they're at the mercy of referees actually starting to enforce rules. Wink

Honestly, our D, even with the loss of Goldson, is seriously stacked. We have two top 10 DEs, two top 2 (okay, maybe top 5) ILBs, the all-time sack leader through two seasons... and many of the guys on our defense are only getting better (Aldon, Brooks, Culliver, Brown).

The seahawks' D is built quite differently. They have an elite secondary, with a (potentially) very good front 7. We have a super-elite front 7 with a (potentially) very good secondary. Of the two, the elite front 7 will usually be better and more viable long-term than the elite secondary. Why exactly, I can't say. Maybe the big guys have a longer peak-performance stage in their careers than DBs do.
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, but the Seahawks DBs are so good it doesn't matter if they have a dominant pass rush or not. However, they need to stop the run better as it was a big weakness down the stretch.
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757-NINER


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrissooner49er wrote:

Without Justin bullrushing his man into the backfield, often drawing double teams, I don't think Aldon gets quite so many sacks. I think it may be more of a "both events conspired to drain the power out of our pass rush" situation. Both were hurt and those two contribute most to our pass rush.


I see ppl say this quite often and its not really true. J. Smith has been playing like he has, for quite a while now. So why didnt he make guys like Haralson, Travis LaBoy and Tully Banta-Cain as effective when they played next to him? None of those guys even came close to amassing double digit sacks, let alone came close to 19. Does J. Smith's presence helps Aldon? Absolutely. But this defense didn't even begin to sniff the kind of production, in all three levels, that they have these past 2 years until Aldon Smith came on the scene, as well as tweaking some of the personnel up front to go with it. Don't let the stunts fool you....we were running those with Manny Lawson too and they were not nearly as successfully. Aldon's ability can stand on its on, with or without Cowboy.


Last edited by 757-NINER on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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757-NINER


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MARIO MANGELINI wrote:

What's the real reason your defenses play slipped late in the year then?


In short, they got gassed....

Quote:
McDonald and Justin Smith had both played at least 85 percent of the defensive snaps through Week 15, which was when an arm injury forced Smith to the sideline until the playoffs. Tampa Bay (three) and New Orleans (two) were the only other teams with more than one defensive lineman logging 85-plus percent of his team's snaps to that point in the season. The Bucs and Saints had a combined seven other defensive linemen logging at least 30 percent of the snaps to that point. The 49ers had none.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/74816/too-much-worry-over-49ers-defensive-line

Aldon Smith, Ray McDonald, Ahmad Brooks, Justin Smith....that was our pass-rush. Those four guys are who we relied on. The problem down the stretch was a lack of depth/rotation. And it wasn't like we didn't have capable bodies. I always thought guys like RJF should have been given more snaps....I think it was a coaching mistake by Fangio. The offense uses so many diff guys, even defensive players. The defense was mainly 13 guys, for 19 games....just seems rather odd how each unit were complete opposites of each other, in terms of personnel usage outside of the starters.

But even our post-season woes were blown out of proportion.

We held the Ravens to 274 yards passing, at 8.3 yards a completion in the SB. They rushed for 93 yards on 35 attempts for a paltry, 2.7 yard average. It was our third down defense that did us, allowing them to convert 9-16 chances and KO return for a TD.

GB only threw for 248 yards against us, 6.4 average per completions. And if it wasn't for a meaningless drive late 4th quarter, after the game was already decided, those numbers would be considerably less. Our problem there was that they ran the ball on us surprisingly well, at 6.4 yards a rush....they just didn't run enough, with only 16 attempts and 5 of those were from Rodgers and Cobb.

Only real game the defense struggled mightily was against the Falcons. Giving up nearly 400 yards passing and a 55% conversion rate on 3rd down, wont get it done in most instances.


Last edited by 757-NINER on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

757-NINER wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:

Without Justin bullrushing his man into the backfield, often drawing double teams, I don't think Aldon gets quite so many sacks. I think it may be more of a "both events conspired to drain the power out of our pass rush" situation. Both were hurt and those two contribute most to our pass rush.


I see ppl say this quite often and its not really true. J. Smith has been playing like he has, for quite a while now. So why didnt he make guys like Haralson, Travis LaBoy and Tully Banta-Cain as effective when they played next to him? None of those guys even came close to amassing double digit sacks, let alone came close to 19. Does J. Smith's presence helps Aldon? Absolutely. But this defense didn't even begin to sniff the kind of production, in all three levels, that they have these past 2 years until Aldon Smith came on the scene, as well as tweaking some of the personnel up front to go with it. Don't let the stunts fool you....we were running those with Manny Lawson too and they were not nearly as successfully. Aldon's ability can stand on its on, with or without Cowboy.


Apparently, many of you think I am discrediting Aldon. All I am saying is that both injuries to both players happened within a very short time of each other and combined, our pass rush was depleted.
In some of those post season games, Brooks made some outstanding plays that made me VERY glad we did resign him.
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Poster4613


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm. I always saw Aldon as a good player who had a great season as a result of playing with Justin. I cited Aldon's lack of production on not having a healthy Justin Smith to help rather than his own injury.

I think we're a top 10 defense without Justin...top 3 with him.

Edit: I also think the Pats game exposed us a bit when you run hurry up all day.
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chpjns15


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudyZ wrote:
49ersfan2152 wrote:
I think our defense is gonna be great again will be great for a long time. We need a FS an a eventual replacement at SS. A DE to replace Smith eventually. I think we are fine at NT with Dorsey an Ian Williams. Tho id personally take a NT in the middle rds.

Seahawks also have a great D but I think they arnt build as well as we are long term especially when you factor in the number of picks we have this year an will next year an factor in that many of them this year will be used on our D.



Especially considering how they're at the mercy of referees actually starting to enforce rules. Wink

Honestly, our D, even with the loss of Goldson, is seriously stacked. We have two top 10 DEs, two top 2 (okay, maybe top 5) ILBs, the all-time sack leader through two seasons... and many of the guys on our defense are only getting better (Aldon, Brooks, Culliver, Brown).

The seahawks' D is built quite differently. They have an elite secondary, with a (potentially) very good front 7. We have a super-elite front 7 with a (potentially) very good secondary. Of the two, the elite front 7 will usually be better and more viable long-term than the elite secondary. Why exactly, I can't say. Maybe the big guys have a longer peak-performance stage in their careers than DBs do.


Seahawks fan here, and since this seemed to be a fair and even-tempered conversation, I wanted to offer my non-biased opinion on our defenses.

I do want to say that the Seahawks defense is a little bit overrated. There is no denying it, us having the best scoring defense in the league took a lot of luck. We got a bunch or fortunate plays when opposing teams were in the redzone. Towards the beginning of the season, I think we were elite. But towards the end, any Seahawks fan would be lying if they told you our defense was elite. Our pass rush was completely pathetic and Gus Bradley (Our former DC, now Jags HC), called for ridiculous defensive schemes that completely played against our strengths as a defense (see the final 30 seconds of Falcons game). Were we a top-10 defense? Yes. But a top 5 defense? Absolutely not. However, with new DC Dan Quinn and the additions of Bennett and Avril, I fully expect this defense to be elite next year.

Now I am no 49ers expert, but it seems to me like you guys have a elite overall defense. But the things I notice are that you have a suspect secondary, and your defenses performance rides greatly on Justin Smith. With 15 picks in the next draft, I would hope that you guys could find a replacement for him.

Simply put, Both defenses have great futures. Both are young and can still get better. Seahawks D was a little overrated last year, but should be much better next year. 49ers need to make sure they have a replacement for Justin Smith.
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Clark87


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

757-NINER wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:

Without Justin bullrushing his man into the backfield, often drawing double teams, I don't think Aldon gets quite so many sacks. I think it may be more of a "both events conspired to drain the power out of our pass rush" situation. Both were hurt and those two contribute most to our pass rush.


I see ppl say this quite often and its not really true. J. Smith has been playing like he has, for quite a while now. So why didnt he make guys like Haralson, Travis LaBoy and Tully Banta-Cain as effective when they played next to him? None of those guys even came close to amassing double digit sacks, let alone came close to 19. Does J. Smith's presence helps Aldon? Absolutely. But this defense didn't even begin to sniff the kind of production, in all three levels, that they have these past 2 years until Aldon Smith came on the scene, as well as tweaking some of the personnel up front to go with it. Don't let the stunts fool you....we were running those with Manny Lawson too and they were not nearly as successfully.Aldon's ability can stand on its on, with or without Cowboy.


AGREE 100%
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NcFinest9erFan


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clark87 wrote:
757-NINER wrote:
Chrissooner49er wrote:

Without Justin bullrushing his man into the backfield, often drawing double teams, I don't think Aldon gets quite so many sacks. I think it may be more of a "both events conspired to drain the power out of our pass rush" situation. Both were hurt and those two contribute most to our pass rush.


I see ppl say this quite often and its not really true. J. Smith has been playing like he has, for quite a while now. So why didnt he make guys like Haralson, Travis LaBoy and Tully Banta-Cain as effective when they played next to him? None of those guys even came close to amassing double digit sacks, let alone came close to 19. Does J. Smith's presence helps Aldon? Absolutely. But this defense didn't even begin to sniff the kind of production, in all three levels, that they have these past 2 years until Aldon Smith came on the scene, as well as tweaking some of the personnel up front to go with it. Don't let the stunts fool you....we were running those with Manny Lawson too and they were not nearly as successfully.Aldon's ability can stand on its on, with or without Cowboy.


AGREE 100%


didn't matter how good those stunts were if man law couldn't get himself free from OTs. idk how many times he missed on out a sack just because he couldn't get free.
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