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theJ


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky151 wrote:
How is Hawkins a proven NFL player?

Because he's held down a gig for two years now, and is a virtual roster lock barring injury this year. He produces when he's on the field, and made several game breaking plays last year.

sparky151 wrote:
There's a reason he's been cut by a couple of teams already in his career and his role with the Bengals diminished down the stretch.

Yeah, because he went to a small school with a terrible QB and never got to show his stuff on the college level. It's a fact that late round and UDFA's players get very little reps during training camp, and therefore don't get many chances to impress coaches.

sparky151 wrote:
I'd like to see Hawkins replace Tate as kick and punt returner but let's not pretend that we already have someone like Austin on the roster already.

I'd like to pretend like they're two separate players that have their own merits. I don't give a flying fart what anyone's opinion of Austin is. They're not the same guy. One is an NFL veteran with experience and production under his belt. The other is a college player with a chance of doing the same thing. But they're not dependent on one another.

What i'm saying is, i'm not pretending the Bengals have their "Austin" on the roster. You guys are the ones throwing the comparisons around. If the Bengals feel he adds another dimension, they'll take him. And Hawkins will probably still be on the roster (Tate gets cut).
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theJ


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel i might be a little unclear, so here's attempt #2 at explaining my thoughts:

I don't mind comparing college players to NFL players. It's an intuitive and understandable way of projecting their success. So if somewhere to say Tavon Austin is comparable to Andrew Hawkins because he's short and shifty and explosive with the ball in his hands, i have no problem with that.

I have a problem when people say "he's better than Hawkins" or "he does X better than Hawkins". Based on what exactly? Anything Hawkins has done in the pros is 10x harder (figuratively speaking) than what Austin has done in college. Getting off the line, running the route, getting separation, making the catch, and getting the YAC are all harder in the NFL. So no one can say with any authority that Austin will do those things better than Hawkins.

Can he? Sure. Some would argue the difference in talent is worlds apart. Maybe. I don't really know, and won't comment on that.

Like i said, i don't really care. I just hate some of the silly comparisons.
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ark23


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theJ wrote:
I feel i might be a little unclear, so here's attempt #2 at explaining my thoughts:

I don't mind comparing college players to NFL players. It's an intuitive and understandable way of projecting their success. So if somewhere to say Tavon Austin is comparable to Andrew Hawkins because he's short and shifty and explosive with the ball in his hands, i have no problem with that.

I have a problem when people say "he's better than Hawkins" or "he does X better than Hawkins". Based on what exactly? Anything Hawkins has done in the pros is 10x harder (figuratively speaking) than what Austin has done in college. Getting off the line, running the route, getting separation, making the catch, and getting the YAC are all harder in the NFL. So no one can say with any authority that Austin will do those things better than Hawkins.

Can he? Sure. Some would argue the difference in talent is worlds apart. Maybe. I don't really know, and won't comment on that.

Like i said, i don't really care. I just hate some of the silly comparisons.

No question this is sound reasoning and I agree. But this is the offseason, this is draft season, this is silly season. It's what we do around here. Project guys. Even the best drafting teams aren't going to have more than a 60% hit rate on their draft picks, for a multitude of reasons.

It's an interesting debate if nothing else and I agree that it's very difficult to say a player did this in college so he will be able to that skill at an elite level again in the pros. But that's the essence of projecting/scouting. That's what makes it so difficult yet has the appeal (at least to me). Two people can see the same exact set of plays and come to two equally valid yet drastically different conclusions.

I don't think anyone (at least I'm not trying to) is attempting to to say with any certainty that Austin definitively WILL be the better player in the NFL, and if I came off that way that certainly wasn't my intention. No one knows that. But based upon what I've read/watched about Austin I strongly believe he will be a better player than Hawkins. And that leap of faith will be made by some NFL team this fall.

J you are far too rational a thinker for all of us haha. Very fundamental and logical in your thought process. It's very interesting to hear a "devils advocate" position on debates like this.
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sparky151


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theJ wrote:
sparky151 wrote:
How is Hawkins a proven NFL player?

Because he's held down a gig for two years now, and is a virtual roster lock barring injury this year. He produces when he's on the field, and made several game breaking plays last year.

sparky151 wrote:
There's a reason he's been cut by a couple of teams already in his career and his role with the Bengals diminished down the stretch.

Yeah, because he went to a small school with a terrible QB and never got to show his stuff on the college level. It's a fact that late round and UDFA's players get very little reps during training camp, and therefore don't get many chances to impress coaches.

sparky151 wrote:
I'd like to see Hawkins replace Tate as kick and punt returner but let's not pretend that we already have someone like Austin on the roster already.

I'd like to pretend like they're two separate players that have their own merits. I don't give a flying fart what anyone's opinion of Austin is. They're not the same guy. One is an NFL veteran with experience and production under his belt. The other is a college player with a chance of doing the same thing. But they're not dependent on one another.

What i'm saying is, i'm not pretending the Bengals have their "Austin" on the roster. You guys are the ones throwing the comparisons around. If the Bengals feel he adds another dimension, they'll take him. And Hawkins will probably still be on the roster (Tate gets cut).


Hawkins and Austin are both smaller than typical players with good speed and short area quickness. That's the extent of their similarity. Austin is miles better than Hawkins. Andrew is 27 years old and has managed to stick on an NFL roster for 2 seasons while being cut previously several times. In 2011 he appeared in 13 games with 263 yards and 0 TDs for the season. In 2012 he appeared in 14 games with 533 yards and 4 TDs. His career stats lag Jordan Shipley's.

Hawkins' best games last year were in the first 3 weeks so you can't claim the coaches didn't notice him. If Austin had turned pro last year after his big Orange bowl vs Clemson, he would have been a high draft pick. NFL talent evaluators who aren't Bengals fans all think Austin is a better player. There's basically no evidence that Hawkins is a better player. The fact he made an NFL roster doesn't mean much since the same argument applies to Dennis Roland but nobody thinks he's better than Lane Johnson or DJ Fluker (players who will be drafted in the same neighborhood as Austin).
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theJ


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky151 wrote:
Hawkins and Austin are both smaller than typical players with good speed and short area quickness. That's the extent of their similarity. Austin is miles better than Hawkins. Andrew is 27 years old and has managed to stick on an NFL roster for 2 seasons while being cut previously several times. In 2011 he appeared in 13 games with 263 yards and 0 TDs for the season. In 2012 he appeared in 14 games with 533 yards and 4 TDs. His career stats lag Jordan Shipley's.

Hawkins' best games last year were in the first 3 weeks so you can't claim the coaches didn't notice him. If Austin had turned pro last year after his big Orange bowl vs Clemson, he would have been a high draft pick. NFL talent evaluators who aren't Bengals fans all think Austin is a better player. There's basically no evidence that Hawkins is a better player. The fact he made an NFL roster doesn't mean much since the same argument applies to Dennis Roland but nobody thinks he's better than Lane Johnson or DJ Fluker (players who will be drafted in the same neighborhood as Austin).

Better player and more potential aren't necessarily synonymous. That's really the crux of my argument. That until you see them in the pros, you're just projecting potential and using that as your baseline to say "he's better".

But in general i agree with your premise. By all means a 1st round player should have a better career than Hawkins.

ark23 wrote:
J you are far too rational a thinker for all of us haha. Very fundamental and logical in your thought process. It's very interesting to hear a "devils advocate" position on debates like this.

I know. I need to learn to shut up during draft time. Too many bold statements for my liking...
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:20 am    Post subject: Re: Tavon Austin Reply with quote

Skinsfan13 wrote:
Do you guys think the Bengals would consider Tavon Austin with the 21st pick if he was available? .


Troy Williamson v2.0
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sparky151


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Tavon Austin Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Skinsfan13 wrote:
Do you guys think the Bengals would consider Tavon Austin with the 21st pick if he was available? .


Troy Williamson v2.0


Not sure if you're just yanking my chain but Williamson and Austin don't have much in common. They are both fast and that's about it. Austin has better hands, better feet, and is more polished.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Tavon Austin Reply with quote

sparky151 wrote:
LondonBengal wrote:
Skinsfan13 wrote:
Do you guys think the Bengals would consider Tavon Austin with the 21st pick if he was available? .


Troy Williamson v2.0


Not sure if you're just yanking my chain but Williamson and Austin don't have much in common. They are both fast and that's about it. Austin has better hands, better feet, and is more polished.


I made the comparsion, because I think they compare well, and I think they'll both end up having short NFL careers, but thats just my opinion.

Just don't think he's the guy for us, thats all........

I agree with 'J', there's alot more to squeeze out of Hawkins this season.
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