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A question to all those clamoring for a pass rusher at 15Ö

 
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: A question to all those clamoring for a pass rusher at 15Ö Reply with quote

Answer me one questionÖ I completely understand the logic of why that pass rusher is so vital in your minds and over and over again I keep hearing the same names. Dion Jordan, Ezekiel Ansah, Barkevious Mingo, etc.

So help me understand something. For all those who are so willing to risk that pick on players like the ones above based off the sheer fact of their potential alone (because itís not like any of them had outstanding college production), why then is no one willing to take a shot on SMUís Margus Hunt at 15?

Iím being serious here. As far as college production, potential and his NFL celling combined with his measurable when compared to those other prospects he clearly deserves to be in the conversation. Multiple NFL insiders persist that Hunt will not get out of the 1st round so he is obviously in the ball park. Yes, Hunt isnít a 34 OLB but we have just come off a season where Houstonís JJ Watt maybe had the greatest defensive season in the NFLís history and Hunt compares favorably to his skill set.

Does it really matter if the pass rush comes from a defensive lineman or a linebacker?

Like Asnah, Hunt has off the charts measurable and a limited time playing the sport. Huntís college production at SMU is about even if not better than Ansahís at BYU yet Ansah is looked at as a top 10 selection and Hunt isnít ever mentioned there. Yes Hunt has basic fundamentals about the game he is still learning but the same can be said for Ansah. Mingo on the other hand is a great athlete with poor college production. Well, Hunt is a world class athlete with good college production but itís Mingo, not Hunt that is routinely mocked to the Saints at 15 in mock drafts.

Maybe Iím wrong here, am I missing something? What is it about these other risk athletes that set them so far apart from Margus Hunt?

What am I not seeing?
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because he's as raw as raw gets. He plays with zero technique, has stiff hips and gets stood up far too much. He's more boom or bust than Anzah is, and DE isn't exactly a huge need so why would we reach massively on him? I'd be shocked if he went in the first round.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Because he's as raw as raw gets. He plays with zero technique, has stiff hips and gets stood up far too much. He's more boom or bust than Anzah is, and DE isn't exactly a huge need so why would we reach massively on him? I'd be shocked if he went in the first round.


I understand your not a fan but raw as raw can get is Ansah to a tee. Dude did not even know what a 4 pt stance was a the senior bowl practice's. Dude owned the game where opposing offenses were unable to gameplan or double team him but he was god awful in practice. Had spurts of flash plays at BYU but was taken out of more plays and dominated to many times to count due to poor leverage and bad angles just like Hunt. This is typical in athletes that are new to the sport.

I don't see Hunt any more Boom or Bust than Ansah at all. As far as need at DE... our need is at pass rusher and I really don't care where it comes from. If people can sit here and drink the koolaid on athletic freaks like Ansah, Jordan & Mingo when they clearly lack the experience and production on the college level, why should we ignore the fact that if Hunt reaches his full potential he could actually affect games in the same manner that JJ Watt does.

Fact is all these guys are not sure things and are all risk and physical freaks more than football players. I wouldn't let the fact that our need at DE isn't as big as OLB deter me from taking Hunt if I felt he could be the next Watt.

For every play people can show me of Jordan, Ansah or Mingo flashing their ability and potential... I can show you one of Hunt that could make your mouth drop. On the same token, for every play Ansah, Jordan & Mingo get mauled or get dominated because of poor tec, Hunt has them as well.

I do feel this though...

In a perfect world if Ansah, Jordan, Mingo & Hunt all reach their full potential I think Hunt would be the best player. While they all possess rare measurable's I feel Hunt's allow him to do things and affect the game in ways none of the others could.

I'm not saying take Hunt at 15... just that he should be in the conversation if we were willing to take that same risk on other players like him.
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Harper41


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hunt is far more raw than Ansah is. Plus, Ansah has the fluid hips and active hands you look for in a pass rusher. Hunt is literally just an athlete right now. He has stiff hips, horrible technique, doesn't use his hands well. I mean this guy is the project of all projects, it would take him at least 3 seasons to make an impact, if ever. I don't want to touch the guy.
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whodatworm23


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harper41 wrote:
Hunt is far more raw than Ansah is. Plus, Ansah has the fluid hips and active hands you look for in a pass rusher. Hunt is literally just an athlete right now. He has stiff hips, horrible technique, doesn't use his hands well. I mean this guy is the project of all projects, it would take him at least 3 seasons to make an impact, if ever. I don't want to touch the guy.


I think your projecting them in the same manner but aren't dividing the positions. I don't see Hunt as a 34 OLB but as a 34 DE. He clearly has all the physical tools and power to dominate on the NFL level. I highly doubt Hunt will be put on the edge or in space like Ansah will so therefore some of the skills Ansah possesses over Hunt will be a nonfactor. If Hunt is selected by a 43 team that puts him as a base end then your argument holds water but for now im projecting him in Ryans 34 as an end.

I do agree however that he's extremely raw, I don't agree that he's 3 years away, two tops but I also feel the same way about Ansah. Ansah would likely come in as a 3rd down pass rusher in his 1st season as he easies into the NFL game much like Aldon SMith did in San Fran. I could see the same for Hunt.

Any OLB we draft is going to be expected to produce from day one at a high level and won't be afforded the luxury of being brought along slowly and that's a bad mix when your drafting a project at the position and that's what all these guys are. At least Hunt would be afforded the ability to be a rotational player and he develops due to our depth up front.

Honestly I'm to the point where I could care less who we draft at 15. I have a strange feelings were all going to be scratching our heads in disbelief when the pick is announced in April.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forget where, but the two best players at making impactful plays when they've had a chance at OLB in this draft are Jamie Collins and Jarvis Jones. Jones didn't test too well during his pro day and has some health concerns, but I seriously would take either of them over half the people being mentioned.

Also drafting a pass rusher doesn't guarantee he's going to work out. As been pointed out before, we've done best in drafts where we simply drafted the BPA and didn't go straight for need. I do agree that I think we should trade down a little bit first, say with San Fran and get their 1st and the 2nd from KC, they get Travon Austin and we can get the raw/potential players even late in this draft as it's very deep in talent though lacking elite prospects.

Trading back gives us the ability to draft more high upside players. Truthfully outside of LT there is no real need that can be addressed by the draft that gives us a very good chance/guarantee to be better than what we currently have.

I still think we need to address the DL, outside of Hicks and Jordan we have no true players for the future. Trading back to the late 1st, if Jonathan Hankins is still there he would be a great pick-up as he can play both DE and NT, and although he needs to work on his hand usage it can be taught. Then with the 2nd pick we could get a guy like Jamie Collins who can play OLB and gives us that pass rusher still. Then look at S, OT, etc in the next few rounds.
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FLOODx


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just not a fan of Hunt. Isn't he 26 already? I'll take JJ or Collins at 15 all day long.
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MPjeffryred


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raves wrote:
I forget where, but the two best players at making impactful plays when they've had a chance at OLB in this draft are Jamie Collins and Jarvis Jones. Jones didn't test too well during his pro day and has some health concerns, but I seriously would take either of them over half the people being mentioned.

Also drafting a pass rusher doesn't guarantee he's going to work out. As been pointed out before, we've done best in drafts where we simply drafted the BPA and didn't go straight for need. I do agree that I think we should trade down a little bit first, say with San Fran and get their 1st and the 2nd from KC, they get Travon Austin and we can get the raw/potential players even late in this draft as it's very deep in talent though lacking elite prospects.

Trading back gives us the ability to draft more high upside players. Truthfully outside of LT there is no real need that can be addressed by the draft that gives us a very good chance/guarantee to be better than what we currently have.

I still think we need to address the DL, outside of Hicks and Jordan we have no true players for the future. Trading back to the late 1st, if Jonathan Hankins is still there he would be a great pick-up as he can play both DE and NT, and although he needs to work on his hand usage it can be taught. Then with the 2nd pick we could get a guy like Jamie Collins who can play OLB and gives us that pass rusher still. Then look at S, OT, etc in the next few rounds.


Raves, this is my thinking as well. And, I do agree that we may be surprised on draft evening. Both you and the worm have agreed that the best scenario for the Saints is to trade down and pick up picks, especially a second round pick.

And, I do think that in the late first, a DT might have the most value of the players still available. I am beginning to favor Jesse Williams from Alabama. He also is a recent convert to American football and his upside is high. And, he also can play the 5 position which he played in his junior year at Alabama. I would love Jamie Collins in round two. And, I have the Saints drafting a CB in round three.
I believe that Chris Faulk or David Quessenberry will be available in round four. The draft is deep in OT prospects after the first three elite players. The rest may take a year or two to develop, but the Saints may not be as unprepared for the loss of Bushrod as we may think. It is time for Brown to step up as a LT and Marcel Jones may emerge at RT this year. This allows Strief to be a backup for both positions as we develop a younger prospect.
Safety help and a reserve TE should round out the wish list for 2013. I do think Jake Stoneburner from Ohio State might be available in the fifth or sixth round. He is similar to David Thomas but is a bit bigger, faster and a better blocker on the line of scrimmage.
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sammymvpknight


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MPjeffryred wrote:
Raves wrote:
I forget where, but the two best players at making impactful plays when they've had a chance at OLB in this draft are Jamie Collins and Jarvis Jones. Jones didn't test too well during his pro day and has some health concerns, but I seriously would take either of them over half the people being mentioned.

Also drafting a pass rusher doesn't guarantee he's going to work out. As been pointed out before, we've done best in drafts where we simply drafted the BPA and didn't go straight for need. I do agree that I think we should trade down a little bit first, say with San Fran and get their 1st and the 2nd from KC, they get Travon Austin and we can get the raw/potential players even late in this draft as it's very deep in talent though lacking elite prospects.

Trading back gives us the ability to draft more high upside players. Truthfully outside of LT there is no real need that can be addressed by the draft that gives us a very good chance/guarantee to be better than what we currently have.

I still think we need to address the DL, outside of Hicks and Jordan we have no true players for the future. Trading back to the late 1st, if Jonathan Hankins is still there he would be a great pick-up as he can play both DE and NT, and although he needs to work on his hand usage it can be taught. Then with the 2nd pick we could get a guy like Jamie Collins who can play OLB and gives us that pass rusher still. Then look at S, OT, etc in the next few rounds.


Raves, this is my thinking as well. And, I do agree that we may be surprised on draft evening. Both you and the worm have agreed that the best scenario for the Saints is to trade down and pick up picks, especially a second round pick.

And, I do think that in the late first, a DT might have the most value of the players still available. I am beginning to favor Jesse Williams from Alabama. He also is a recent convert to American football and his upside is high. And, he also can play the 5 position which he played in his junior year at Alabama. I would love Jamie Collins in round two. And, I have the Saints drafting a CB in round three.
I believe that Chris Faulk or David Quessenberry will be available in round four. The draft is deep in OT prospects after the first three elite players. The rest may take a year or two to develop, but the Saints may not be as unprepared for the loss of Bushrod as we may think. It is time for Brown to step up as a LT and Marcel Jones may emerge at RT this year. This allows Strief to be a backup for both positions as we develop a younger prospect.
Safety help and a reserve TE should round out the wish list for 2013. I do think Jake Stoneburner from Ohio State might be available in the fifth or sixth round. He is similar to David Thomas but is a bit bigger, faster and a better blocker on the line of scrimmage.


I don't think it is a matter of stepping up for Brown. The guy is injury prone. He was injury prone in college...was forced to put on weight in the NFL...and can't handle the necessary weight. This is a story that has been told OVER and OVer and OVER again. Guys with injury histories who you EXPECT to put on more than 5% of their body weight ARE NOT GOING TO PAN OUT. That is what I would be telling the Saints front office if I was their team doc.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree injuries are a big concern for Charles Brown and he could very likely find himself on IR by midseason if not sooner, but the talent to play the position is undeniable when healthy. I don't think a first round tackle should be taken unless one of the top 3 falls to us, then we take him only if we don't get a great trade offer from someone else that would want him as well, but I think we would, I think Pittsburgh would easily give up a 3rd round pick just to move up two slots and we could possibly still make a move back to a team like the 49ers if Austin is still there.

But there are a few guys that due to injury or inexperience will be going in the 4th round or later that can come in and play the position well enough that we wouldn't have to reach too much. I like Chris Faulkner from LSU or Reid Fragel in the 4th. Fragel has only played RT but being a former TE has the feet to play LT as well and the lack of experience could hurt a little but no more than an unathletic McKinnie or other replacement would do vs top pass rushers.
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krewebrees


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As of right now our tackle situation is Brown Steeif Jones and Harris. All but Harris I'm fine starting at day one. That's 3 guys if one gets hurt we still have a good line. Say we start Brown-Strieif, if Brown gets hurt Jones starts. I'm still fine with that. Do I love it no, but its doable for this year.

I would be fine if we traded up and got Johnson, but I would also be fine if we didn't draft a single one. William Robinson was on the street at the start of the season and became our starting RT by the end. That worked out pretty well. He's still a free agent I'm sure if we need him he'll come back too.
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spanky3801


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mentioned that you don't care where the pass rush comes from. I agree completely. Personally, I just hope that we take a an impact defensive player. Whethere it's Hunt, a NT, an CB, an OLB, a Safety... Hell, we can trade #15 and our fourth to Minnesota for their 2 firsts for something like Kevin Minter and Jonathan Hankins for all I care. Impact!!! Don't go draft Can Jordan's replacement for 7 years down the road.
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Raves


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spanky3801 wrote:
You mentioned that you don't care where the pass rush comes from. I agree completely. Personally, I just hope that we take a an impact defensive player. Whethere it's Hunt, a NT, an CB, an OLB, a Safety... Hell, we can trade #15 and our fourth to Minnesota for their 2 firsts for something like Kevin Minter and Jonathan Hankins for all I care. Impact!!! Don't go draft Can Jordan's replacement for 7 years down the road.


It would likely take our 3rd and 4th to trade back due to the 2 1sts being valued at around 760 and 720 and the #15 being valued at 1050, that actually still leaves us a 4th round pick down. Now the #23 or #25 plus their 2nd makes it about even. The best trade though is with San Fran for picks #31 and #34 I think it is for our 1st, maybe needing to add a 4th.

At that point we can get 2 impact players as I don't think the difference between #15 and two picks between #31-35 is big, I actually think defensively its stronger to have the two high picks instead of just one in the top #15. Adding two from guys like Hankins/Richardson/Williams on the DL, Minter, T'eo, Ogletree from ILB, and Collins, etc from OLB is better than just one of Jones/Mingo.
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't read the thread but he is raw as hell + his age is a turnoff.
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