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Nothing New Here, Jaguars Want out of the Second Pick
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MoJo122-b-21


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Matt Ryan was the "strongest of a weak class" too.

That class has proven to be not that weak after all. Matty Ice, Joe Flacco, Chenne, and Matt Flynn were all taken in the 2008 draft.


Well, you're half-right.

I still don't think that taking the strongest in a weak class is going to magially work out for the best- Chad Pennington, JaMarcus Russell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart and David Carr were also weak quarterbacks at the top of weak classes (I'm sure I'm missing more than a few).

All I'm saying is that positional value shouldn't be a reason to overvalue a prospect.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vince Young and Matt Leinart was a part of a class that people thought was elite, and the same can be said of David Carr and his counterpart Joey Harrington. Pretty sure a lot of people were in love with JaMarcus and Quinn as well.

There's been a whole lot of "flawed" QBs that have had major success too. List off your top ten QBs. How many of them were great prospects? One, maybe 2?
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green24


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Vince Young and Matt Leinart was a part of a class that people thought was elite, and the same can be said of David Carr and his counterpart Joey Harrington. Pretty sure a lot of people were in love with JaMarcus and Quinn as well.

There's been a whole lot of "flawed" QBs that have had major success too. List off your top ten QBs. How many of them were great prospects? One, maybe 2?

Yep. Honestly, Geno Smith is a very similar to Aaron Rodgers eight years ago. Obviously I don't expect Geno Smith to become an MVP-caliber QB, but they have a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses coming out of college.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Vince Young and Matt Leinart was a part of a class that people thought was elite, and the same can be said of David Carr and his counterpart Joey Harrington. Pretty sure a lot of people were in love with JaMarcus and Quinn as well.

There's been a whole lot of "flawed" QBs that have had major success too. List off your top ten QBs. How many of them were great prospects? One, maybe 2?

Yep. Honestly, Geno Smith is a very similar to Aaron Rodgers eight years ago. Obviously I don't expect Geno Smith to become an MVP-caliber QB, but they have a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses coming out of college.


I actually think Matt Ryan is the best comparison for Geno.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made the Matt Ryan comparison before anyone else did!
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viewed as great prospect:

1. Rodgers - Nope
2. Brady - Nope
3. Peyton - Yes, but many thought Leaf was better.
4. Brees - Nope
5. Eli - Sorta. Many claimed he was only rated highly because of his dad and brother
6. Big Ben - Nope
7. Flacco - Nope
8. Ryan - Nope
9. Cam - Nope, got torn apart on here more than Geno is now

Kinda struggling for a 10th right now. I guess we can throw Dalton, Rivers, Schaub, Alex Smith, Romo, Cutler, Freeman, and Stafford in there. Maybe Stafford and Rivers were great prospects? I don't remember too much of Rivers as a prospect and there was a good number of people that favored Sanchez to Stafford.


I kept the three rookies off, as well as Kaep because of limited action. 2 of those were "great" prospects though.

I guarantee you that there's a whole lot of teams that regret passing on these "flawed" QBs.
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green24


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
green24 wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Vince Young and Matt Leinart was a part of a class that people thought was elite, and the same can be said of David Carr and his counterpart Joey Harrington. Pretty sure a lot of people were in love with JaMarcus and Quinn as well.

There's been a whole lot of "flawed" QBs that have had major success too. List off your top ten QBs. How many of them were great prospects? One, maybe 2?

Yep. Honestly, Geno Smith is a very similar to Aaron Rodgers eight years ago. Obviously I don't expect Geno Smith to become an MVP-caliber QB, but they have a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses coming out of college.


I actually think Matt Ryan is the best comparison for Geno.

Not bad. I could also understand a more polished Ryan Tannehill or a more athletic Sam Bradford.
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FREDDY T


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course caldwell is going to say he is uninterested in the players at the top of the draft.

By doing this he creates 2 options:

option 1) KC takes joekel and the jaguars are able to trade the second pick to a bidder. This option arises because the jaguars made it public that they aren't enamored with any prospect, allowing teams to believe that outside of joekel, they can trade up to 2 and select the same player they would get if the traded up to 1. Saving the team the difference in value between the 1st and 2nd pick.

option 2) KC takes joekel and the jaguars take a guy they are actually enamored with.


Basically caldwell is saying to other teams that anyone you can take at 1 (outside of joekel) you can take at 2, because KC already showed their hand. Caldwell is effectively taking away most, if not all, interest in trading for the #1 pick, making the 2nd pick the first viable trade option.

good move.
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Matt Ryan was the "strongest of a weak class" too.

That class has proven to be not that weak after all. Matty Ice, Joe Flacco, Chenne, and Matt Flynn were all taken in the 2008 draft.


So 2 good QBs? Confused
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DuvalsKing


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Viewed as great prospect:

1. Rodgers - Nope
2. Brady - Nope
3. Peyton - Yes, but many thought Leaf was better.
4. Brees - Nope
5. Eli - Sorta. Many claimed he was only rated highly because of his dad and brother
6. Big Ben - Nope
7. Flacco - Nope
8. Ryan - Nope
9. Cam - Nope, got torn apart on here more than Geno is now

Kinda struggling for a 10th right now. I guess we can throw Dalton, Rivers, Schaub, Alex Smith, Romo, Cutler, Freeman, and Stafford in there. Maybe Stafford and Rivers were great prospects? I don't remember too much of Rivers as a prospect and there was a good number of people that favored Sanchez to Stafford.


I kept the three rookies off, as well as Kaep because of limited action. 2 of those were "great" prospects though.

I guarantee you that there's a whole lot of teams that regret passing on these "flawed" QBs.


You keep saying Matt Ryan wasn't a great prospect I don't see what your talking about Ryan was well respected for his ability coming out of college a lot of coaches thought Ryan would do very well in the league. The two knocks on Ryan were he didn't have a rocket arm but he could make every NFL throw, and he had a high turnover rate due to the fact he had no elite receiver on that BC team and he was forced to shoulder the load by making something out of nothing week in and week out.

Cutler got a lot of respect by scouts for his gun slinger (hate it or love it) mentality and he had, amazing arm talent. He was knocked again for the talent around him he played on bad team in a elite conference.

Big Ben was a well respected prospect with all the tools big kid big arm mobile had all the tools his only knock he didn't play against elite comp.

Flacco same as Ben.

Cam had all the talent in the world. Cam's knock was could he translate from spread to a pro system, did he have a diva complex and was he smart enough to read NFL defenses, but his combine scouting report was off the charts and forced the hand of the Panthers to take a shot at 1.


Dalton, Romo, Brady, Brees, Rodgers ok tracking but those other guys were well respected coming out of college.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DuvalsKing wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Viewed as great prospect:

1. Rodgers - Nope
2. Brady - Nope
3. Peyton - Yes, but many thought Leaf was better.
4. Brees - Nope
5. Eli - Sorta. Many claimed he was only rated highly because of his dad and brother
6. Big Ben - Nope
7. Flacco - Nope
8. Ryan - Nope
9. Cam - Nope, got torn apart on here more than Geno is now

Kinda struggling for a 10th right now. I guess we can throw Dalton, Rivers, Schaub, Alex Smith, Romo, Cutler, Freeman, and Stafford in there. Maybe Stafford and Rivers were great prospects? I don't remember too much of Rivers as a prospect and there was a good number of people that favored Sanchez to Stafford.


I kept the three rookies off, as well as Kaep because of limited action. 2 of those were "great" prospects though.

I guarantee you that there's a whole lot of teams that regret passing on these "flawed" QBs.


You keep saying Matt Ryan wasn't a great prospect I don't see what your talking about Ryan was well respected for his ability coming out of college a lot of coaches thought Ryan would do very well in the league. The two knocks on Ryan were he didn't have a rocket arm but he could make every NFL throw, and he had a high turnover rate due to the fact he had no elite receiver on that BC team and he was forced to shoulder the load by making something out of nothing week in and week out.

Cutler got a lot of respect by scouts for his gun slinger (hate it or love it) mentality and he had, amazing arm talent. He was knocked again for the talent around him he played on bad team in a elite conference.

Big Ben was a well respected prospect with all the tools big kid big arm mobile had all the tools his only knock he didn't play against elite comp.

Flacco same as Ben.

Cam had all the talent in the world. Cam's knock was could he translate from spread to a pro system, did he have a diva complex and was he smart enough to read NFL defenses, but his combine scouting report was off the charts and forced the hand of the Panthers to take a shot at 1.


Dalton, Romo, Brady, Brees, Rodgers ok tracking but those other guys were well respected coming out of college.


Those guys were not well-respected coming out of college and the reasons why are the reasons you mentioned... lol
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If all these QBs were so well respected, why did QB needy teams pass up on them? Matt Ryan was so respected that two QB desperate teams decided to draft someone else.

How are these knocks that you don't think are a big deal in retrospect different, in any way at all, from the knocks on Geno?

Geno has the arm to make every throw, has the dedication, is smart enough, is athletic, etc.

His knocks are inconsistency, not being in a pro style offense, and that he wasn't able to elevate the bad team (terrible o-line/defense). That's different than those other QBs that you're saying were highly regarded, how?
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DuvalsKing


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
If all these QBs were so well respected, why did QB needy teams pass up on them? Matt Ryan was so respected that two QB desperate teams decided to draft someone else.

How are these knocks that you don't think are a big deal in retrospect different, in any way at all, from the knocks on Geno?

Geno has the arm to make every throw, has the dedication, is smart enough, is athletic, etc.

His knocks are inconsistency, not being in a pro style offense, and that he wasn't able to elevate the bad team (terrible o-line/defense). That's different than those other QBs that you're saying were highly regarded, how?


What you have to realize is what we have rated as a more important need and what the team has rated as more important need maybe 3 totally different things. So just because you feel that Matt should have been chosen before both of the Longs doesn't mean that they are going to pick him. Its their philosophy not ours thats why they pay them the big bucks hence the reason behind the current QB coach saying if Blaine had chosen to come out this year he would still have him rated ahead of Geno thats his opinion it is what it is.

You say Geno has great work ethic and film room smarts are you walking hand and hand with Geno everyday? Just curious or is this hear say because anyone that is close to a individual will speak well of that individual, it doesn't mean that its particularly true. Of course they are going to talk him up because they are the last people tied to that individual. Chris Weinke has said the same thing for Matt Barkley, as well as the staff from USC but i'm guessing thats suppose to gain merit against NFL defenses. I got some water front property in Nebraska I want to sell you my friend.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Parcells has stated a few times that as good as Jake Long is, he regrets passing on Matt Ryan.
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DuvalsKing


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Bill Parcells has stated a few times that as good as Jake Long is, he regrets passing on Matt Ryan.


I'm pretty sure 100% of the GMs and scouts in the NFL have said they missed the boat on a guy or wanted to re do a pick what is your point hind sight is 20/20. I'm pretty sure Gene Smith is like WTF was I thinking taking a punter before Russell Wilson came off the board. Hell out of that same draft Matt Ryan was drafted Jerry Jones picked Felix Jones in that same draft Chris Johnson(2 picks after felix was selected), Matt Forte (2 rounder), and Charles Johnson (3rd rounder) were selected you think he wish he had that pick back? Hell if you screwed that up would you want that pick back? This was the same draft Derrick Harvey was selected by the way. And Flacco was selected 18th in that same draft. What do you know.


Last edited by DuvalsKing on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:22 pm; edited 4 times in total
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