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BroncoinGermany


Joined: 09 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PGeorge2 wrote:
Idon't know if he will be Bronco, but Revis will most certainly not be a Jet come draft day. The 49ers are not even in the running. The only other team I've heard mentioned is the Falcons. And people are just saying that because they traded a lot for JJ, now people think now that is the norm for the Falcons organization.

I have no clue if we'll be players. And I still haven't decided if I would like it if we were. But Revis will be traded before the draft. And I'd be surprised if the compensation is huge because at this point there doesn't seem to be a lot of teams interested for numerous reasons. The compensation, cost of re-signing him long term and the injury are adding up to a lot of teams not being interested.

Even with all that, I think the Jets are desperate to deal him. They shouldn't have said they're shopping him if they wanted to play hard ball on compensation. If they don't trade, he'll walk and they get nothing. And I think they want draft picks for this draft, not next years. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me to see him traded for a 2nd this year and a compensatory pick next year. The Jets are between a rock and a hard place.


Good summary of the Jets' dilemma.
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mke1010


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a waste of cyber space and serious discussion. Revis is not coming to Denver and neither should he.
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BroncoinGermany


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mke1010 wrote:
What a waste of cyber space and serious discussion. Revis is not coming to Denver and neither should he.


It's the offseason.
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copeland


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:

But the situation is not dissimilar from Peyton's last year; it's a risk but a measured one. It's actually, IMO, a safer bet as Revis is younger and there is a lot more medical knowledge of treatments and recovery from knee injuries than there is neurological ailments.

I understand the concern but just like we had to deal with the "Peyton is one hit away from the end of his career and it's stupid to spend $20m on him, we should keep Tebow" BS last year, we will have to tolerate the same if and when we trade for Revis until he proves himself to still be an elite player on the field.



It's this where we disagree AAA. I see the two situations as quite dissimilar.
With PM, our risk was basically a one year contract for $20mil. If he couldn't perform at a certain level we could opt out. Fairly small risk for the potential reward.

For Revis, not so. Our risk would be probably one or twp premium draft picks along with a contract probably in the $90mil range with about $60 guaranteed.

If PM failed, there's no dead money, he's off the books and no compensation given.

If Revis doesn't perform, we're out potentially two premium draft picks and a huge amount of "dead" money on the books.

You can't compare those two.

Do you think we would have pulled the trigger on PM if we would have had to give up a 1st and 2nd and give him a 5 year $100mil contract with $60+ guaranteed? Not likely.


+1
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

copeland wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:

But the situation is not dissimilar from Peyton's last year; it's a risk but a measured one. It's actually, IMO, a safer bet as Revis is younger and there is a lot more medical knowledge of treatments and recovery from knee injuries than there is neurological ailments.

I understand the concern but just like we had to deal with the "Peyton is one hit away from the end of his career and it's stupid to spend $20m on him, we should keep Tebow" BS last year, we will have to tolerate the same if and when we trade for Revis until he proves himself to still be an elite player on the field.



It's this where we disagree AAA. I see the two situations as quite dissimilar.
With PM, our risk was basically a one year contract for $20mil. If he couldn't perform at a certain level we could opt out. Fairly small risk for the potential reward.

For Revis, not so. Our risk would be probably one or twp premium draft picks along with a contract probably in the $90mil range with about $60 guaranteed.

If PM failed, there's no dead money, he's off the books and no compensation given.

If Revis doesn't perform, we're out potentially two premium draft picks and a huge amount of "dead" money on the books.

You can't compare those two.

Do you think we would have pulled the trigger on PM if we would have had to give up a 1st and 2nd and give him a 5 year $100mil contract with $60+ guaranteed? Not likely.


+1

Thanks for contributing so much to the discussion, copeland.

No, if PM failed we're out $19m - his cap number for last year. And next Tuesday a sum of $40m in guarantees kicks in with Peyton's contract. If he gets hurt on Wednesday we're still on he hook for $40m. Do you see a risk there? Do you see a risk for a QB who had such numbness in his hand that he had to wear a glove to get better grip on the ball? What's to say his whole right arm doesn't go numb and we're on the hook for $40m?

My wager is that you both failed to take into account my point about how much we know about knee injuries and the recoveries from them. How many players have had knee injuries and come back to be fine, just as good if not damn close to as good?

Lets say, for the sake of argument, Revis comes back from his knee injury as 90% the player he used to be. Do you really think Desmond Trufant, Jonathan Banks or Xavier Rhodes is going to be equal to a 90% Darelle Revis?
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
copeland wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:

But the situation is not dissimilar from Peyton's last year; it's a risk but a measured one. It's actually, IMO, a safer bet as Revis is younger and there is a lot more medical knowledge of treatments and recovery from knee injuries than there is neurological ailments.

I understand the concern but just like we had to deal with the "Peyton is one hit away from the end of his career and it's stupid to spend $20m on him, we should keep Tebow" BS last year, we will have to tolerate the same if and when we trade for Revis until he proves himself to still be an elite player on the field.



It's this where we disagree AAA. I see the two situations as quite dissimilar.
With PM, our risk was basically a one year contract for $20mil. If he couldn't perform at a certain level we could opt out. Fairly small risk for the potential reward.

For Revis, not so. Our risk would be probably one or twp premium draft picks along with a contract probably in the $90mil range with about $60 guaranteed.

If PM failed, there's no dead money, he's off the books and no compensation given.

If Revis doesn't perform, we're out potentially two premium draft picks and a huge amount of "dead" money on the books.

You can't compare those two.

Do you think we would have pulled the trigger on PM if we would have had to give up a 1st and 2nd and give him a 5 year $100mil contract with $60+ guaranteed? Not likely.


+1

Thanks for contributing so much to the discussion, copeland.

No, if PM failed we're out $19m - his cap number for last year. And next Tuesday a sum of $40m in guarantees kicks in with Peyton's contract. If he gets hurt on Wednesday we're still on he hook for $40m. Do you see a risk there? Do you see a risk for a QB who had such numbness in his hand that he had to wear a glove to get better grip on the ball? What's to say his whole right arm doesn't go numb and we're on the hook for $40m?

My wager is that you both failed to take into account my point about how much we know about knee injuries and the recoveries from them. How many players have had knee injuries and come back to be fine, just as good if not damn close to as good?

Lets say, for the sake of argument, Revis comes back from his knee injury as 90% the player he used to be. Do you really think Desmond Trufant, Jonathan Banks or Xavier Rhodes is going to be equal to a 90% Darelle Revis?


Give it a rest AAA! After a year of great production we're about to make a commitment to PM. How in your mind does that even come close to making a larger commitment to a player that hasn't seen the field in over a year!!!!

Don't be so f**king absurd!!

Make all the arguements you want, but don't come with absurd BS comparisons like that!

You're better than that.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
Give it a rest AAA! After a year of great production we're about to make a commitment to PM. How in your mind does that even come close to making a larger commitment to a player that hasn't seen the field in over a year!!!!

Don't be so f**king absurd!!

Make all the arguements you want, but don't come with absurd BS comparisons like that!

You're better than that.

The hostility is unwelcome.

Reasonable, intelligent, well-informed people can disagree, no?

With Peyton last year, we made a commitment to a 35-year old QB who hadn't played in a year and who had four operations of which the majority of even medical professionals knew little. To said player committed $19m. Peyton was an unquestionably elite player at a position at which the Broncos had an enormous and immediate need.

In this year's circumstance vis-a-vis Revis we would be committing a large sum of money to a player, who is only 27 years old, and is coming off an injury which doctors can accurately predict (if there is a such thing in modern medicine) his likelihood of recovery. Said player is an elite player at a position at which the Broncos have a major, immediate need.

There are risks with Revis. As there were risks with Peyton. I'm not arguing the situations are identical but they are similar and, far more germane to our discussion, they are similar risks when all factors are weighed.
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broncodad2012


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
Give it a rest AAA! After a year of great production we're about to make a commitment to PM. How in your mind does that even come close to making a larger commitment to a player that hasn't seen the field in over a year!!!!

Don't be so f**king absurd!!

Make all the arguements you want, but don't come with absurd BS comparisons like that!

You're better than that.

The hostility is unwelcome.

Reasonable, intelligent, well-informed people can disagree, no?

With Peyton last year, we made a commitment to a 35-year old QB who hadn't played in a year and who had four operations of which the majority of even medical professionals knew little. To said player committed $19m. Peyton was an unquestionably elite player at a position at which the Broncos had an enormous and immediate need.

In this year's circumstance vis-a-vis Revis we would be committing a large sum of money to a player, who is only 27 years old, and is coming off an injury which doctors can accurately predict (if there is a such thing in modern medicine) his likelihood of recovery. Said player is an elite player at a position at which the Broncos have a major, immediate need.

There are risks with Revis. As there were risks with Peyton. I'm not arguing the situations are identical but they are similar and, far more germane to our discussion, they are similar risks when all factors are weighed.
the difference is Manning is QB the most important player on the field, revis is a CB. He may not trust his body to make cuts at first. everyone knows Manning would not come back if he could not be elite
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The Helicopter


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:

With Peyton last year, we made a commitment to a 35-year old QB who hadn't played in a year and who had four operations of which the majority of even medical professionals knew little. To said player committed $19m. Peyton was an unquestionably elite player at a position at which the Broncos had an enormous and immediate need.

In this year's circumstance vis-a-vis Revis we would be committing a large sum of money to a player, who is only 27 years old, and is coming off an injury which doctors can accurately predict (if there is a such thing in modern medicine) his likelihood of recovery. Said player is an elite player at a position at which the Broncos have a major, immediate need.

There are risks with Revis. As there were risks with Peyton. I'm not arguing the situations are identical but they are similar and, far more germane to our discussion, they are similar risks when all factors are weighed.


I agree with your analysis of Peyton vs Revis. With Peyton we were risking a lot of money for the most important player on the field...and none really knew if he would be able to play at a level to warrant the financial commitment. Since Elway is running the show, and Champ is not a long term cornerback solution you'd expect a player with Revis' ability to be a slam dunk proposition. I don't think his play can be a question, nor the importance of his position to his team. Again, think Elway's football philosophy. What's troubling is his history re hold outs. His persona says, me first, team second. He wants how much money...again? This side of the equation does not fit the mold that Elway portrays and has brought back to the Broncos. If he could come to Denver without giving up a lot of value in draft picks, and was willing to negotiate a long term deal that was favorable to the 'team' then it would be a great deal. But can and will that happen based on what we know about Elway and Revis? I don't think so. However, I would love to be surprised because I really want Revis the football player.
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AnAngryAmerican


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

broncodad2012 wrote:
the difference is Manning is QB the most important player on the field, revis is a CB. He may not trust his body to make cuts at first. everyone knows Manning would not come back if he could not be elite

In today's pass-happy NFL CB is a very important position. Is it as important as QB, no, but let's not act like CB is a position of secondary importance (no pun intended). Having a strong defensive backfield is also critical to what we want to do defensively. Elway has frequently mentioned CB as one of the 4 key positions along with QB, LT and pass rusher; the Broncos are pretty damn good at 3 of those 4.

Again, lots and lots of players have come back from knee injuries suffered in their mid-20s and had highly productive careers. I'm not saying it's not a risk, it is, but so was Peyton. And now you might say Peyton wouldn't have come back if he didn't trust his neck (a point I made repeatedly last year) but how many people out there were (foolishly) saying he was huge injury risk and a mistake to sign a 36-year old QB coming off 4 neck surgeries.

Hindsight is 20/20 but last year there were more than a few people saying it was too much of a risk to sign Peyton.

The Helicopter wrote:
I agree with your analysis of Peyton vs Revis. With Peyton we were risking a lot of money for the most important player on the field...and none really knew if he would be able to play at a level to warrant the financial commitment. Since Elway is running the show, and Champ is not a long term cornerback solution you'd expect a player with Revis' ability to be a slam dunk proposition. I don't think his play can be a question, nor the importance of his position to his team. Again, think Elway's football philosophy. What's troubling is his history re hold outs. His persona says, me first, team second. He wants how much money...again? This side of the equation does not fit the mold that Elway portrays and has brought back to the Broncos. If he could come to Denver without giving up a lot of value in draft picks, and was willing to negotiate a long term deal that was favorable to the 'team' then it would be a great deal. But can and will that happen based on what we know about Elway and Revis? I don't think so. However, I would love to be surprised because I really want Revis the football player.

I originally shared your concerns about Revis' potentially being a "me first" player. However, in looking back at his history more in-depth, I think all he's ever really wanted is to be paid as the elite player he is. Who wouldn't? In any field, not just pro sports. He's best at his craft and planet Earth and, rightly IMO, feels he should be justly compensated.

Secondly, and as just as importantly as earning his fair value, is the fact he has played in a major media market with a media that over-hypes every little thing. Combine this with the terribly dysfunctional franchise that is the New York Jets, and their bombastic, loud-mouth head coach and you have a powder keg.

I think in a franchise that runs like a well-oiled machine, has excellent leadership from Pat Bowlen on down, has a strong lockerroom with a number of widely-respected veteran leaders and a has Super Bowl mentality that, when paid fairly as he would be here, I would expect Revis to be a model citizen.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think an ACL tear is as big a deal these days as it once was. I mean, guys have them every year, and it puts them out for the year, but it doesn't end their careers or their productivity any more.

The Terrell Davis days of getting an ACL and it ending your career are over. Which makes me think the Revis ACL tear isn't that big of deal. Could there be a set back in this injury, sure, but I ain't sweat'n that.

I have to agree with AAA again, CB, is such a big deal these days. Having two quality CB's in this league is a must...having two of the best CB's would make the Denver defense elite. Plus, the Broncos will need a replacement for Champ in a few years; I think Revis is as good as most to be the heir to Champ.
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1234567


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jsthomp2007 wrote:
I don't think an ACL tear is as big a deal these days as it once was. I mean, guys have them every year, and it puts them out for the year, but it doesn't end their careers or their productivity any more.

The Terrell Davis days of getting an ACL and it ending your career are over. Which makes me think the Revis ACL tear isn't that big of deal. Could there be a set back in this injury, sure, but I ain't sweat'n that.

I have to agree with AAA again, CB, is such a big deal these days. Having two quality CB's in this league is a must...having two of the best CB's would make the Denver defense elite. Plus, the Broncos will need a replacement for Champ in a few years; I think Revis is as good as most to be the heir to Champ.


True. But even if he never recovers completely, Revis at 90% is still a top 5 cb in the NFL. That's a heck of a lot better than anyone else we could get with the 28th pick.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnAngryAmerican wrote:
AKRNA wrote:
Give it a rest AAA! After a year of great production we're about to make a commitment to PM. How in your mind does that even come close to making a larger commitment to a player that hasn't seen the field in over a year!!!!

Don't be so f**king absurd!!

Make all the arguements you want, but don't come with absurd BS comparisons like that!

You're better than that.

[b]The hostility is unwelcome. [/b]
Reasonable, intelligent, well-informed people can disagree, no?

With Peyton last year, we made a commitment to a 35-year old QB who hadn't played in a year and who had four operations of which the majority of even medical professionals knew little. To said player committed $19m. Peyton was an unquestionably elite player at a position at which the Broncos had an enormous and immediate need.

In this year's circumstance vis-a-vis Revis we would be committing a large sum of money to a player, who is only 27 years old, and is coming off an injury which doctors can accurately predict (if there is a such thing in modern medicine) his likelihood of recovery. Said player is an elite player at a position at which the Broncos have a major, immediate need.

There are risks with Revis. As there were risks with Peyton. I'm not arguing the situations are identical but they are similar and, far more germane to our discussion, they are similar risks when all factors are weighed.


Hostility unwelcome I'm sure, but provoked by your snide comment to a poster simply agreeing with me.

"+1" by the way simply implies agreement. Nothing more or less.

I'll not discuss the disparities in contracts anymore. You seem to feel they're similar. I don't believe they're even close. We'll agree to disagree.

Just so we understand each other. I prefer to be quite moderate, respond to others and carry on an intelligent conversation. I often ignite a quite short fuse when snide, derogatory or personal attacks become involved. In my opinion, none are necessary in this forum.

As a moderator I'd think you'd agree.
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mke1010


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I have often stated, anyone who thought for a second the Broncos were going to blow QB money on Revis while trading away draft picks has not been paying attention to the blue print Elway is putting in place at Dove Valley.

The first free agent to fly to Denver today was Dunta Robinson. And even though I dont particularly love his coverage skills, for the right price he has value. KC apparently offered a deal too rich for us. I am glad> I think we can find better value with more upside.


http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/03/08/dunta-robinson-visited-with-broncos-today-before-signing-with-chiefs/18751/

Make no mistake, the Broncos are looking for a cornerback. The Broncos visited with veteran cornerback Dunta Robinson earlier Friday before he reportedly agreed to a three-year contract later in the day with the Kansas City Chiefs.
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jsthomp2007


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mke1010 wrote:
As I have often stated, anyone who thought for a second the Broncos were going to blow QB money on Revis while trading away draft picks has not been paying attention to the blue print Elway is putting in place at Dove Valley.

The first free agent to fly to Denver today was Dunta Robinson. And even though I dont particularly love his coverage skills, for the right price he has value. KC apparently offered a deal too rich for us. I am glad> I think we can find better value with more upside.


http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2013/03/08/dunta-robinson-visited-with-broncos-today-before-signing-with-chiefs/18751/

Make no mistake, the Broncos are looking for a cornerback. The Broncos visited with veteran cornerback Dunta Robinson earlier Friday before he reportedly agreed to a three-year contract later in the day with the Kansas City Chiefs.


Huh? You think that is the blueprint? To bring in one of the worst cover corners in the league?
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