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Pats won't use franchise tag on WR Wes Welker, Talking deal
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I_GET_SAX


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennard has had one year so I don't want to get too excited either way. McCourty worked out well his first year very well at CB and then for the year and a half after that looked darn near dreadful hence the transition to FS. To me neither are hits. Whilhite, Bodden, Dowling, Wheatley, Arrington to an extent, Bodden (FA)...none stuck and that position has lacked with playmakers/cover guys.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I_GET_SAX wrote:
Dennard has had one year so I don't want to get too excited either way. McCourty worked out well his first year very well at CB and then for the year and a half after that looked darn near dreadful hence the transition to FS. To me neither are hits. Whilhite, Bodden, Dowling, Wheatley, Arrington to an extent, Bodden (FA)...none stuck and that position has lacked with playmakers/cover guys.


McCourty was excellent at CB this year before getting moved and he was moved because of the awful safety play, not his own struggles.

Bodden wasn't a guy they drafted and his career was ended by an injury after playing very well in his one healthy year with the team, so I don't know why he's an example of anything.

Arrington is a practice squad player who the team developed into a guy who has started outside (and been inconsistent) but who is an excellent slot CB. That's a successful development in my book

Wilhite was exactly what you would expect from a 4th round pick - a passable short term backup. Again, I don't see that as a flop.

Dowling and Wheatley were both derailed by injuries and the jury is still out on Dowling.

Other than Darius Butler, I really haven't seen the Pats whiff on a talent evaluation of a CB and they've done a reasonable job coaching up the guys who can get and stay on the field. There's nothing the coaching staff can do about guys breaking their wrists, blowing out their hips or destroying their backs. Can we criticize them for taking chances on guys like Dowling and Wheatley who were injured in college? Sure, but that's part of the team's philosophy. Take chances on guys who fell due to injury or off-field issues. We don't knock the strategy when it pays off (Gronkowski, Hernandez) so I don't see how we can criticize it when it doesn't.
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spr217


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donut wrote:
Troy Brown wrote:
I can't be the only one who would rather see money go into Welker than Vollmer.

I'm fine w/ boh being allowed to hit open market.


This depends upon what they are asking for, which we don't know. If they are making outlandish demands, then we really don't have any choice but to let them walk, but we'd be choosing the least harmful option in that scenario. Ideally, it would be best to have them both back at deals that leaves them well compensated without handcuffing the team financially. Vollmer for four years at around 5 million/yr, Welker at three for 8 million/yr, that would work for me. But we simply don't know what they're seeking, nor do we know what the team is offering. I'd hate to see them lose these guys because they lowballed them though just as much as I'd hate it if they overpaid.
The defense is a greater area of need, however if we take care of all of our offensive needs prior to the draft rather than opening up additional holes by letting these two go, we can focus almost exclusively on defense again this year. Signing a savvy veteran at an affordable short term contract (Ed Reed?) while maintaining all of our personnel on offense will put us in a great position to improve the team through the draft. One more draft like 2010 or 2012, particularly if it's focused on defense, could really put us over the top.
This may be a fairly conservative approach, but I think it makes the most sense. Retain your key guys, plug holes cheap, and build through the draft.
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mission27


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Welker: Good. That would be too much money given our cap situation and given Welker's limited role. If he wants to stay in New England he's going to have to accept less.

On Talib: We've invested a lot of early picks in defensive backs since Samuel left and while a lot of the players we've brought in have been legitimately useful (McCourty, Dennard if he can keep this up, and Arrington in a limited role) we've yet to find our top starting cornerback. McCourty looked like that guy at times but he was inconsistent and whatever the reason he was moved, he's probably better off at safety. Talib looks like a good starting corner - he's not Darrel Revis but I'd still feel more comfortable going into 2013 with Talib or a similar player than with a guy taken in the first or second round of the draft to fill that role. Unless the price is ridiculous I think it's worth giving him a multiyear deal. If we still want to draft a corner and hope for the best with Dowling as replacement/insurance for Talib and Dennard I think that's fine.
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mission27 wrote:
On Welker: Good. That would be too much money given our cap situation and given Welker's limited role. If he wants to stay in New England he's going to have to accept less.

On Talib: We've invested a lot of early picks in defensive backs since Samuel left and while a lot of the players we've brought in have been legitimately useful (McCourty, Dennard if he can keep this up, and Arrington in a limited role) we've yet to find our top starting cornerback. McCourty looked like that guy at times but he was inconsistent and whatever the reason he was moved, he's probably better off at safety. Talib looks like a good starting corner - he's not Darrel Revis but I'd still feel more comfortable going into 2013 with Talib or a similar player than with a guy taken in the first or second round of the draft to fill that role. Unless the price is ridiculous I think it's worth giving him a multiyear deal. If we still want to draft a corner and hope for the best with Dowling as replacement/insurance for Talib and Dennard I think that's fine.


I'm very torn on Talib. On one hand, he objectively didn't play that all that well when he was on the field. But the secondary as a whole responded really well. Was it the "ripple effect" or is it a quality of Talib himself?

Can a guy like Cary Williams bring us the same positive effect that Aqib Talib did on the field, by merely improving the safety play with DMC in centerfield and sliding Arrington inside again? That's really the million dollar question of this offseason. Personally, I think its more a competitive #1 corner thing than a Talib thing, and that if we pay him 8 milli a year it will be a mistake.


Now the positive about Talib is that while he's not really a shutdown-style man corner, he's very scheme diverse. He can play man-to-man better than any of our corners but he can also play in zone (probably better than man) and has a playmaking streak. I think that this skillset is a good fit for our defense. A lot of the pieces on our back end aren't established - having a player who can fill whatever role they need to competitively is a good thing. If we can get him back on reasonable coin I'd be thrilled. I think he can be steadier than a guy like Sean Smith, even if he doesn't play as well as Smith can in spurts.
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's time to move on. Brady will make wonders with guys like Amendola, Harvin and draftees in this year's draft etc. Welker has no leverage and he'd be smart to accept a 6-8 million per year contract (not that he's even worth that at this point).
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Billy Spikes


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

***Update***
Quote:
Wes Welker and the Patriots have indeed been discussing a contract, but still no reason to believe anything is imminent.


http://twitter.com/jeffphowe/statuses/306206700367642624
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ChazStandard


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan25 wrote:
I think it's time to move on. Brady will make wonders with guys like Amendola, Harvin and draftees in this year's draft etc. Welker has no leverage and he'd be smart to accept a 6-8 million per year contract (not that he's even worth that at this point).


I agree with you in general...but Harvin/Amendola would never work as a straight swap for Welker. They could never take the punishment Welker takes, they'd be lucky to see the field for 10 games.
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