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germ-x


Joined: 05 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Burger Bill at ESPN.com, who has done work there I must say, had an interesting little nugget yesterday about our MLB situation.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/54969/is-denvers-mlb-plan-sound

Bill Williamson wrote:
I asked Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. what he thinks of the current plan. Like me, he is skeptical that it will come down to simply Irving versus Johnson.

Denver’s middle linebacker is really just a two-down player,” Williamson said.

The bolded is particularly interesting. Does our scheme really just call or a MLB that is a 2-down player, thus having players like Mays and Brooking starting, or is using our MLB as only a 2-down player a result of only having Mays and Brooking? I will have go back on DVR tomorrow and look at some game tape but if this is correct, MLB might not really be a big need for us and Elway will use our draft picks and free agent dollars shoring up other weaknesses and adding depth to other positions.


Someone previously eluded to this.

It may be more due to how much the coaching staff likes what theyre getting from their nickel backers. Rather than the inability of our current MLB's to do the job in the nickel set.

If you have 2 very good coverage backers in for nickel, i see no problem having a "2 down" mlb. Best players should play right? Even if it means breaking it down situationally.


Denver obviously has a mix of talent at LB. They have the 2 down guys, as well as players that are better at playing the pass. Obviously it is something a team can get by with, but if there is an opportunity to add a legitimate 3 down LB it needs to be taken. Currently this team doesn't have a guy that is a good player vs both the run and pass.

Now, i don't think it is something Denver absolutely must do or their screwed, but if a player is available that provides this its worth taking.
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1234567


Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 785
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germ-x wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Burger Bill at ESPN.com, who has done work there I must say, had an interesting little nugget yesterday about our MLB situation.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/54969/is-denvers-mlb-plan-sound

Bill Williamson wrote:
I asked Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. what he thinks of the current plan. Like me, he is skeptical that it will come down to simply Irving versus Johnson.

Denver’s middle linebacker is really just a two-down player,” Williamson said.

The bolded is particularly interesting. Does our scheme really just call or a MLB that is a 2-down player, thus having players like Mays and Brooking starting, or is using our MLB as only a 2-down player a result of only having Mays and Brooking? I will have go back on DVR tomorrow and look at some game tape but if this is correct, MLB might not really be a big need for us and Elway will use our draft picks and free agent dollars shoring up other weaknesses and adding depth to other positions.


Someone previously eluded to this.

It may be more due to how much the coaching staff likes what theyre getting from their nickel backers. Rather than the inability of our current MLB's to do the job in the nickel set.

If you have 2 very good coverage backers in for nickel, i see no problem having a "2 down" mlb. Best players should play right? Even if it means breaking it down situationally.


Denver obviously has a mix of talent at LB. They have the 2 down guys, as well as players that are better at playing the pass. Obviously it is something a team can get by with, but if there is an opportunity to add a legitimate 3 down LB it needs to be taken. Currently this team doesn't have a guy that is a good player vs both the run and pass.

Now, i don't think it is something Denver absolutely must do or their screwed, but if a player is available that provides this its worth taking.


Agreed. I'd give ANYTHING to have a 27 year old Al Wilson on this defense. Could you imagine!? I think overall though, I'd really like to see us take a top tier interior O-lineman or D-Tackle. The one thing our defense really really needs is a guy that can completely BLOW UP the line of scrimmage. We have a great outside pass rush, but it really helps when the QB doesn't have a pocket to step back up into. Plus, I don't know if there is a Al Wilson type LB in this years draft, but to be fair, I haven't really studied them much. I keep hearing that Manti is overrated (he did disappear in the championship game; in fairness though, Bama's line was unstoppable that game), and I don't know anything at all about Ogletree.
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mke1010


Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elliot878 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Burger Bill at ESPN.com, who has done work there I must say, had an interesting little nugget yesterday about our MLB situation.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/54969/is-denvers-mlb-plan-sound

Bill Williamson wrote:
I asked Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. what he thinks of the current plan. Like me, he is skeptical that it will come down to simply Irving versus Johnson.

Denver’s middle linebacker is really just a two-down player,” Williamson said.

The bolded is particularly interesting. Does our scheme really just call or a MLB that is a 2-down player, thus having players like Mays and Brooking starting, or is using our MLB as only a 2-down player a result of only having Mays and Brooking? I will have go back on DVR tomorrow and look at some game tape but if this is correct, MLB might not really be a big need for us and Elway will use our draft picks and free agent dollars shoring up other weaknesses and adding depth to other positions.


Someone previously eluded to this.

It may be more due to how much the coaching staff likes what theyre getting from their nickel backers. Rather than the inability of our current MLB's to do the job in the nickel set.

If you have 2 very good coverage backers in for nickel, i see no problem having a "2 down" mlb. Best players should play right? Even if it means breaking it down situationally.


Who was trying to avoid or elude the issue? Smile (Sorry couldn't help myself.) I think the word you were intending is "alluded."
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Winder23


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 4268
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1234567 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Burger Bill at ESPN.com, who has done work there I must say, had an interesting little nugget yesterday about our MLB situation.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/54969/is-denvers-mlb-plan-sound

Bill Williamson wrote:
I asked Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. what he thinks of the current plan. Like me, he is skeptical that it will come down to simply Irving versus Johnson.

Denver’s middle linebacker is really just a two-down player,” Williamson said.

The bolded is particularly interesting. Does our scheme really just call or a MLB that is a 2-down player, thus having players like Mays and Brooking starting, or is using our MLB as only a 2-down player a result of only having Mays and Brooking? I will have go back on DVR tomorrow and look at some game tape but if this is correct, MLB might not really be a big need for us and Elway will use our draft picks and free agent dollars shoring up other weaknesses and adding depth to other positions.


Someone previously eluded to this.

It may be more due to how much the coaching staff likes what theyre getting from their nickel backers. Rather than the inability of our current MLB's to do the job in the nickel set.

If you have 2 very good coverage backers in for nickel, i see no problem having a "2 down" mlb. Best players should play right? Even if it means breaking it down situationally.


Denver obviously has a mix of talent at LB. They have the 2 down guys, as well as players that are better at playing the pass. Obviously it is something a team can get by with, but if there is an opportunity to add a legitimate 3 down LB it needs to be taken. Currently this team doesn't have a guy that is a good player vs both the run and pass.

Now, i don't think it is something Denver absolutely must do or their screwed, but if a player is available that provides this its worth taking.


Agreed. I'd give ANYTHING to have a 27 year old Al Wilson on this defense. Could you imagine!? I think overall though, I'd really like to see us take a top tier interior O-lineman or D-Tackle. The one thing our defense really really needs is a guy that can completely BLOW UP the line of scrimmage. We have a great outside pass rush, but it really helps when the QB doesn't have a pocket to step back up into. Plus, I don't know if there is a Al Wilson type LB in this years draft, but to be fair, I haven't really studied them much. I keep hearing that Manti is overrated (he did disappear in the championship game; in fairness though, Bama's line was unstoppable that game), and I don't know anything at all about Ogletree.
While he was a good player, Al Wilson is so grossly overrated by Broncos fans. He was awful in coverage and could be blocked at times in the run game. Good player, just not what some make him out to be.
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1234567


Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 785
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winder23 wrote:
1234567 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Burger Bill at ESPN.com, who has done work there I must say, had an interesting little nugget yesterday about our MLB situation.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/54969/is-denvers-mlb-plan-sound

Bill Williamson wrote:
I asked Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. what he thinks of the current plan. Like me, he is skeptical that it will come down to simply Irving versus Johnson.

Denver’s middle linebacker is really just a two-down player,” Williamson said.

The bolded is particularly interesting. Does our scheme really just call or a MLB that is a 2-down player, thus having players like Mays and Brooking starting, or is using our MLB as only a 2-down player a result of only having Mays and Brooking? I will have go back on DVR tomorrow and look at some game tape but if this is correct, MLB might not really be a big need for us and Elway will use our draft picks and free agent dollars shoring up other weaknesses and adding depth to other positions.


Someone previously eluded to this.

It may be more due to how much the coaching staff likes what theyre getting from their nickel backers. Rather than the inability of our current MLB's to do the job in the nickel set.

If you have 2 very good coverage backers in for nickel, i see no problem having a "2 down" mlb. Best players should play right? Even if it means breaking it down situationally.


Denver obviously has a mix of talent at LB. They have the 2 down guys, as well as players that are better at playing the pass. Obviously it is something a team can get by with, but if there is an opportunity to add a legitimate 3 down LB it needs to be taken. Currently this team doesn't have a guy that is a good player vs both the run and pass.

Now, i don't think it is something Denver absolutely must do or their screwed, but if a player is available that provides this its worth taking.


Agreed. I'd give ANYTHING to have a 27 year old Al Wilson on this defense. Could you imagine!? I think overall though, I'd really like to see us take a top tier interior O-lineman or D-Tackle. The one thing our defense really really needs is a guy that can completely BLOW UP the line of scrimmage. We have a great outside pass rush, but it really helps when the QB doesn't have a pocket to step back up into. Plus, I don't know if there is a Al Wilson type LB in this years draft, but to be fair, I haven't really studied them much. I keep hearing that Manti is overrated (he did disappear in the championship game; in fairness though, Bama's line was unstoppable that game), and I don't know anything at all about Ogletree.
While he was a good player, Al Wilson is so grossly overrated by Broncos fans. He was awful in coverage and could be blocked at times in the run game. Good player, just not what some make him out to be.


Is he a HOFer? No. But I don't think I'm overrating him. He was a 5 time pro-bowler and 2 time all-pro, and for good reason.

1) In his early career AW was outstanding in coverage. It was only his last season or two that it started to slip. And even then, it was far from "aweful"

2) He lived at the LOS and made all the key plays when we needed them most. He's the entire reason we had a top ten run defense all those years, despite having a D-line of Cleveland rejects.

3) He was the general on the defensive side of the ball that we have yet to replace. Our defense has no leaders. Champ? Leads by example, but is far from a field general. DJ? lol. Miller? Best player on our D, but he isn't the one getting our guys into the right positions. We don't have a Ray Lewis/Ed Reed player that can take control of our D, and it shows at times.

So, back to my original statement. I would take a young Al Wilson over any defensive player in this year's draft. And it's not even close.
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bobdevine


Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elway speaking at the Combine today says this about MLB:

Quote:
I believe where we are with Steven Johnson and Nate Irving, we're excited about those two. I know it's been a topic of conversation, but we drafted Nate two years ago in the third round to be the guy that took over at middle linebacker. So I've got a great deal of confidence in the fact that he's going to come in, once he's given that responsibility, that he'll step up to it. I think if you look at where the league is and where we are, 65 percent of our snaps last year were nickel. I'm not trying to downplay the importance of that position, but nickel is so important, too. As I said, I think Nate will step in. He did a tremendous job for us on special teams, and I think he'll step in, in the competition with Stevie Johnson, who was a CFA for us. They're both guys very capable of handling that job.


Hmmm, I don't see Joe Mays or DJ mentioned.

To repeat a previous comment, I'm ambivalent about getting a really good MLB. I'd love to have one be the "field general" but the Broncos are following the NFL pattern of substituting players according to need.

While a lot of the pre-draft talk is a smokescreen, I don't believe the team will pursue a MLB in the early rounds. Maybe they'll pick one in the later rounds.
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BroncoinGermany


Joined: 09 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobdevine wrote:
Elway speaking at the Combine today says this about MLB:

Quote:
I believe where we are with Steven Johnson and Nate Irving, we're excited about those two. I know it's been a topic of conversation, but we drafted Nate two years ago in the third round to be the guy that took over at middle linebacker. So I've got a great deal of confidence in the fact that he's going to come in, once he's given that responsibility, that he'll step up to it. I think if you look at where the league is and where we are, 65 percent of our snaps last year were nickel. I'm not trying to downplay the importance of that position, but nickel is so important, too. As I said, I think Nate will step in. He did a tremendous job for us on special teams, and I think he'll step in, in the competition with Stevie Johnson, who was a CFA for us. They're both guys very capable of handling that job.


Hmmm, I don't see Joe Mays or DJ mentioned.

To repeat a previous comment, I'm ambivalent about getting a really good MLB. I'd love to have one be the "field general" but the Broncos are following the NFL pattern of substituting players according to need.

While a lot of the pre-draft talk is a smokescreen, I don't believe the team will pursue a MLB in the early rounds. Maybe they'll pick one in the later rounds.


Maybe Elway looks at Ogletree, Te'o, Minter and Brown and thinks that all these guys benefited from the Jenkinses, Nixs, Logans and Lutuis of the world and that all Irving needs to showcase his similar individual talent on the field is one of those space and block occupying DTs as well?
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Winder23


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1234567 wrote:
Winder23 wrote:
1234567 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Burger Bill at ESPN.com, who has done work there I must say, had an interesting little nugget yesterday about our MLB situation.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/54969/is-denvers-mlb-plan-sound

Bill Williamson wrote:
I asked Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. what he thinks of the current plan. Like me, he is skeptical that it will come down to simply Irving versus Johnson.

Denver’s middle linebacker is really just a two-down player,” Williamson said.

The bolded is particularly interesting. Does our scheme really just call or a MLB that is a 2-down player, thus having players like Mays and Brooking starting, or is using our MLB as only a 2-down player a result of only having Mays and Brooking? I will have go back on DVR tomorrow and look at some game tape but if this is correct, MLB might not really be a big need for us and Elway will use our draft picks and free agent dollars shoring up other weaknesses and adding depth to other positions.


Someone previously eluded to this.

It may be more due to how much the coaching staff likes what theyre getting from their nickel backers. Rather than the inability of our current MLB's to do the job in the nickel set.

If you have 2 very good coverage backers in for nickel, i see no problem having a "2 down" mlb. Best players should play right? Even if it means breaking it down situationally.


Denver obviously has a mix of talent at LB. They have the 2 down guys, as well as players that are better at playing the pass. Obviously it is something a team can get by with, but if there is an opportunity to add a legitimate 3 down LB it needs to be taken. Currently this team doesn't have a guy that is a good player vs both the run and pass.

Now, i don't think it is something Denver absolutely must do or their screwed, but if a player is available that provides this its worth taking.


Agreed. I'd give ANYTHING to have a 27 year old Al Wilson on this defense. Could you imagine!? I think overall though, I'd really like to see us take a top tier interior O-lineman or D-Tackle. The one thing our defense really really needs is a guy that can completely BLOW UP the line of scrimmage. We have a great outside pass rush, but it really helps when the QB doesn't have a pocket to step back up into. Plus, I don't know if there is a Al Wilson type LB in this years draft, but to be fair, I haven't really studied them much. I keep hearing that Manti is overrated (he did disappear in the championship game; in fairness though, Bama's line was unstoppable that game), and I don't know anything at all about Ogletree.
While he was a good player, Al Wilson is so grossly overrated by Broncos fans. He was awful in coverage and could be blocked at times in the run game. Good player, just not what some make him out to be.


Is he a HOFer? No. But I don't think I'm overrating him. He was a 5 time pro-bowler and 2 time all-pro, and for good reason.

1) In his early career AW was outstanding in coverage. It was only his last season or two that it started to slip. And even then, it was far from "aweful"

2) He lived at the LOS and made all the key plays when we needed them most. He's the entire reason we had a top ten run defense all those years, despite having a D-line of Cleveland rejects.

3) He was the general on the defensive side of the ball that we have yet to replace. Our defense has no leaders. Champ? Leads by example, but is far from a field general. DJ? lol. Miller? Best player on our D, but he isn't the one getting our guys into the right positions. We don't have a Ray Lewis/Ed Reed player that can take control of our D, and it shows at times.

So, back to my original statement. I would take a young Al Wilson over any defensive player in this year's draft. And it's not even close.
Saying Wilson was ever outstanding in coverage is simply false. He was always a liability and I distinctly remember Manning making the Broncos pay for that liability in the playoffs.

Saying you would take Al Wilson over any defensive player in this draft is laughable. Good player, but like I said overrated by most Bronco fans.
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1234567


Joined: 25 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Winder23 wrote:
1234567 wrote:
Winder23 wrote:
1234567 wrote:
germ-x wrote:
elliot878 wrote:
AnAngryAmerican wrote:
Burger Bill at ESPN.com, who has done work there I must say, had an interesting little nugget yesterday about our MLB situation.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/54969/is-denvers-mlb-plan-sound

Bill Williamson wrote:
I asked Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. what he thinks of the current plan. Like me, he is skeptical that it will come down to simply Irving versus Johnson.

Denver’s middle linebacker is really just a two-down player,” Williamson said.

The bolded is particularly interesting. Does our scheme really just call or a MLB that is a 2-down player, thus having players like Mays and Brooking starting, or is using our MLB as only a 2-down player a result of only having Mays and Brooking? I will have go back on DVR tomorrow and look at some game tape but if this is correct, MLB might not really be a big need for us and Elway will use our draft picks and free agent dollars shoring up other weaknesses and adding depth to other positions.


Someone previously eluded to this.

It may be more due to how much the coaching staff likes what theyre getting from their nickel backers. Rather than the inability of our current MLB's to do the job in the nickel set.

If you have 2 very good coverage backers in for nickel, i see no problem having a "2 down" mlb. Best players should play right? Even if it means breaking it down situationally.


Denver obviously has a mix of talent at LB. They have the 2 down guys, as well as players that are better at playing the pass. Obviously it is something a team can get by with, but if there is an opportunity to add a legitimate 3 down LB it needs to be taken. Currently this team doesn't have a guy that is a good player vs both the run and pass.

Now, i don't think it is something Denver absolutely must do or their screwed, but if a player is available that provides this its worth taking.


Agreed. I'd give ANYTHING to have a 27 year old Al Wilson on this defense. Could you imagine!? I think overall though, I'd really like to see us take a top tier interior O-lineman or D-Tackle. The one thing our defense really really needs is a guy that can completely BLOW UP the line of scrimmage. We have a great outside pass rush, but it really helps when the QB doesn't have a pocket to step back up into. Plus, I don't know if there is a Al Wilson type LB in this years draft, but to be fair, I haven't really studied them much. I keep hearing that Manti is overrated (he did disappear in the championship game; in fairness though, Bama's line was unstoppable that game), and I don't know anything at all about Ogletree.
While he was a good player, Al Wilson is so grossly overrated by Broncos fans. He was awful in coverage and could be blocked at times in the run game. Good player, just not what some make him out to be.


Is he a HOFer? No. But I don't think I'm overrating him. He was a 5 time pro-bowler and 2 time all-pro, and for good reason.

1) In his early career AW was outstanding in coverage. It was only his last season or two that it started to slip. And even then, it was far from "aweful"

2) He lived at the LOS and made all the key plays when we needed them most. He's the entire reason we had a top ten run defense all those years, despite having a D-line of Cleveland rejects.

3) He was the general on the defensive side of the ball that we have yet to replace. Our defense has no leaders. Champ? Leads by example, but is far from a field general. DJ? lol. Miller? Best player on our D, but he isn't the one getting our guys into the right positions. We don't have a Ray Lewis/Ed Reed player that can take control of our D, and it shows at times.

So, back to my original statement. I would take a young Al Wilson over any defensive player in this year's draft. And it's not even close.
Saying Wilson was ever outstanding in coverage is simply false. He was always a liability and I distinctly remember Manning making the Broncos pay for that liability in the playoffs.

Saying you would take Al Wilson over any defensive player in this draft is laughable. Good player, but like I said overrated by most Bronco fans.


Lol PM scorched our entire defense over the years, not just Al Wilson. Champ, Lynch, Ferguson, Kennoy Kennedy, Roc Alexander, Darrent Williams, I could go on and on and on. After all, he IS Payton Manning.

So who would you take instead? None of this year's linebackers are sure fire all-pros. Not even close. We're ok at CB. There's no all-pro safeties this year. There's some pretty good DT's, but that's a position that I never place bets on, because I can name a dozen "dominant" DT's that completely disappeared in the NFL. With Wilson, we had an ACTUAL all-pro player at a position that's a big need for us right now. I'd hardly call that laughable.
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AKRNA


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I loved Al Wilson. Fiery leader, great sideline to sideline guy and loved the game. That said, in this day and age he's a two down MLB.

IMO, Mecklenburg and Gradishar are the only ILB/MLB's we've ever had that would be 3 own guys today. Both great against the run, while Gradishar was excellent in coverage and Mecklenburg could really get after the QB. He wasn't bad in coverage either, just that his strength was at the LOS.

Anyway, much as I love Al, I'd hate to see us spend a #1 on a 2 down MLB.
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Winder23


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AKRNA wrote:
I loved Al Wilson. Fiery leader, great sideline to sideline guy and loved the game. That said, in this day and age he's a two down MLB.

IMO, Mecklenburg and Gradishar are the only ILB/MLB's we've ever had that would be 3 own guys today. Both great against the run, while Gradishar was excellent in coverage and Mecklenburg could really get after the QB. He wasn't bad in coverage either, just that his strength was at the LOS.

Anyway, much as I love Al, I'd hate to see us spend a #1 on a 2 down MLB.
AKRNA you have a good way of summing things up. I also loved Wilson, but I will always maintain he was overrated. He made alot of plays and had a great competitive nature. The problem with Al was he was short and athletically limited. It showed alot during his career. Whether it was in coverage or simply shedding offensive linemen he was at times a liability due to his own physical limitations. It's not as if the Broncos were a dominant defense during his time here. They were decent at in some years. He wasn't a game changer.

AKRNA makes another great point. Finding a MLB that is a 3 down player is difficult and rather impossible in this draft. The only one who comes close is Minter. Ogletree may be able to be that guy, but I don't see a MLB. I see a SLB or a ILB in a 3-4. He is out of the question anyways. I can't see Elway taking a guy with that kind of baggage.
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