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Headbanger 2013 mock 1.0
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Headbanger


Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Posts: 774
Location: Split,Croatia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I really love a good debate. So let's answer some questions.

Quote:
I don't like it too much, tbh. We didn't really upgrade the O-line, we barely touched Bradford's weapons and the only additions we made to the defense outside of Rambo are areas that were already relatively strong last year.

OK, you don't like it, I understand, but I made pretty good draft based on needs and real possibility of picking them up. I'd prefer Warmack at 16 and Fisher at 22, but they will be gone by then, so why not pick the best player available, especially in first few rounds. As for relatively strong, I wonder who was that player at WLB oposite Dunbar last season? Oh yes, I think it was Apple, or was it Macintosh Laughing

Quote:
Honestly, headbanger, I'm just not a huge fan. Usually, we are pretty eye to eye but not really loving this mock. Richardson is an excellent pick though. Just doubt he makes it to #16.

We usually are on the same page, but this time we're not and that is OK. I'd like us to get all of those players people are raving about, but this is not my fantasy mock. Laughing OK, seriously, I see the only major issue is Eifert, but when I was watching Stanford and Irish this season, I've seen a big difference in two TE's. Ertz is more athlete and Eifert is more weapon and Eifert holds on to the ball while Ertz drops it when under pressure. Don't get me wrong, I like Ertz because his upside is bigger than Eiforts, but Ertz needs a year to develop, while Eifort can be that safe receiver on third down.

Take care Cool
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"Sometimes two...Sometimes three...That's how many you need and you still can't handle me."
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RAMS MY TEAM TILL THE DAY I DIE
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 46026
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Headbanger wrote:
Well I really love a good debate. So let's answer some questions.

Quote:
I don't like it too much, tbh. We didn't really upgrade the O-line, we barely touched Bradford's weapons and the only additions we made to the defense outside of Rambo are areas that were already relatively strong last year.

OK, you don't like it, I understand, but I made pretty good draft based on needs and real possibility of picking them up. I'd prefer Warmack at 16 and Fisher at 22, but they will be gone by then, so why not pick the best player available, especially in first few rounds. As for relatively strong, I wonder who was that player at WLB oposite Dunbar last season? Oh yes, I think it was Apple, or was it Macintosh Laughing

Quote:
Honestly, headbanger, I'm just not a huge fan. Usually, we are pretty eye to eye but not really loving this mock. Richardson is an excellent pick though. Just doubt he makes it to #16.

We usually are on the same page, but this time we're not and that is OK. I'd like us to get all of those players people are raving about, but this is not my fantasy mock. Laughing OK, seriously, I see the only major issue is Eifert, but when I was watching Stanford and Irish this season, I've seen a big difference in two TE's. Ertz is more athlete and Eifert is more weapon and Eifert holds on to the ball while Ertz drops it when under pressure. Don't get me wrong, I like Ertz because his upside is bigger than Eiforts, but Ertz needs a year to develop, while Eifort can be that safe receiver on third down.

Take care Cool


My point is...why not just take a WR then? Eifert isn't going to contribute as a blocker so what does he offer that a 1st round WR doesn't? Better yet...what does he offer that a guy that we can get in the 2nd round at WR doesn't?

Even better yet, what does he offer that Gavin Escobar doesn't who can be had in the 2nd to 3rd round(probably the 2nd)?

Watching their games, Eifert is more polished as a receiver while Escobar is more polished as a blocker(although neither is a particularly effective blocker...for Escobar, that's mainly because he doesn't have the functional strength).

I just don't see the allure of Eifert at #22. If we want a receiving threat, give me Keenan Allen, Cordarrelle Patterson or Tavon Austin.

If we want a really talented receiving TE...Reed and Escobar are better value picks. Plus, maybe Eifert can be had in the 2nd.

On top of that, I'm not really sold that Schotty wants a receiver type. I'd expect him to more go for a guy like Michael Williams in the mid rounds than for us to go for a receiving TE...he seems to like moving Kendricks around in that H-Back role. My guess would be that they'd be more inclined to find an inline TE that can block which is why Williams makes sense to me.
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Harper41 wrote:
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Headbanger


Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Posts: 774
Location: Split,Croatia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Headbanger wrote:
Well I really love a good debate. So let's answer some questions.

Quote:
I don't like it too much, tbh. We didn't really upgrade the O-line, we barely touched Bradford's weapons and the only additions we made to the defense outside of Rambo are areas that were already relatively strong last year.

OK, you don't like it, I understand, but I made pretty good draft based on needs and real possibility of picking them up. I'd prefer Warmack at 16 and Fisher at 22, but they will be gone by then, so why not pick the best player available, especially in first few rounds. As for relatively strong, I wonder who was that player at WLB oposite Dunbar last season? Oh yes, I think it was Apple, or was it Macintosh Laughing

Quote:
Honestly, headbanger, I'm just not a huge fan. Usually, we are pretty eye to eye but not really loving this mock. Richardson is an excellent pick though. Just doubt he makes it to #16.

We usually are on the same page, but this time we're not and that is OK. I'd like us to get all of those players people are raving about, but this is not my fantasy mock. Laughing OK, seriously, I see the only major issue is Eifert, but when I was watching Stanford and Irish this season, I've seen a big difference in two TE's. Ertz is more athlete and Eifert is more weapon and Eifert holds on to the ball while Ertz drops it when under pressure. Don't get me wrong, I like Ertz because his upside is bigger than Eiforts, but Ertz needs a year to develop, while Eifort can be that safe receiver on third down.

Take care Cool


My point is...why not just take a WR then? Eifert isn't going to contribute as a blocker so what does he offer that a 1st round WR doesn't? Better yet...what does he offer that a guy that we can get in the 2nd round at WR doesn't?

Even better yet, what does he offer that Gavin Escobar doesn't who can be had in the 2nd to 3rd round(probably the 2nd)?

Watching their games, Eifert is more polished as a receiver while Escobar is more polished as a blocker(although neither is a particularly effective blocker...for Escobar, that's mainly because he doesn't have the functional strength).

I just don't see the allure of Eifert at #22. If we want a receiving threat, give me Keenan Allen, Cordarrelle Patterson or Tavon Austin.

If we want a really talented receiving TE...Reed and Escobar are better value picks. Plus, maybe Eifert can be had in the 2nd.

On top of that, I'm not really sold that Schotty wants a receiver type. I'd expect him to more go for a guy like Michael Williams in the mid rounds than for us to go for a receiving TE...he seems to like moving Kendricks around in that H-Back role. My guess would be that they'd be more inclined to find an inline TE that can block which is why Williams makes sense to me.


I understand the concern with picking him at #22, but look at it this way, by that pick most of OL will be gone (Warmack, Fisher, Joeckel), in the second round we could get Warford, maybe Fluker, but the thing is, we are tight on cap space and you pay less money to 1st round TE than 1st round OL.

Another thing is, we have seen that most of contenders have two TE threats and we don't. I'm just of opinion that, we do like NE did, get yourself a one dimensional pass catcher (like Gronk, please don't tell me he's awesome blocker) and one that can do a little bit of everything (like Hernandez) and you have a perfect TE duo that feeds off of each other.

OK, I'will say no more on TE topic in this mock. Take care.
_________________

"Sometimes two...Sometimes three...That's how many you need and you still can't handle me."
By David "Deacon" Jones.

RAMS MY TEAM TILL THE DAY I DIE
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 46026
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Headbanger wrote:


I understand the concern with picking him at #22, but look at it this way, by that pick most of OL will be gone (Warmack, Fisher, Joeckel), in the second round we could get Warford, maybe Fluker, but the thing is, we are tight on cap space and you pay less money to 1st round TE than 1st round OL.


That's not true. The money is set based on the draft slot, not the position of the player.

Quote:
Another thing is, we have seen that most of contenders have two TE threats and we don't. I'm just of opinion that, we do like NE did, get yourself a one dimensional pass catcher (like Gronk, please don't tell me he's awesome blocker) and one that can do a little bit of everything (like Hernandez) and you have a perfect TE duo that feeds off of each other.


Gronk? Gronk is a great blocker. Hernandez is the one who isn't much of a blocker.

And I totally disagree. The only two contenders that I'd say really feature two TEs as a strong part of their passing offense are New England and Denver...and with Denver, it's very arguable if you would consider Dreessen and Tamme strong parts of that offense.(I'd say no personally)

Rather than copy the Patriots, I'd rather we establish our own identity based on our coaches and scheme. First and foremost, to me, that means getting the best possible playmaker that we can at that spot. Eifert isn't that guy.

I think Keenan Allen, Austin and Patterson do far more for our pass offense than Eifert does. And that's what's important to me.
_________________
The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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DerekBrink


Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Headbanger wrote:


I understand the concern with picking him at #22, but look at it this way, by that pick most of OL will be gone (Warmack, Fisher, Joeckel), in the second round we could get Warford, maybe Fluker, but the thing is, we are tight on cap space and you pay less money to 1st round TE than 1st round OL.


That's not true. The money is set based on the draft slot, not the position of the player.

Quote:
Another thing is, we have seen that most of contenders have two TE threats and we don't. I'm just of opinion that, we do like NE did, get yourself a one dimensional pass catcher (like Gronk, please don't tell me he's awesome blocker) and one that can do a little bit of everything (like Hernandez) and you have a perfect TE duo that feeds off of each other.


Gronk? Gronk is a great blocker. Hernandez is the one who isn't much of a blocker.

And I totally disagree. The only two contenders that I'd say really feature two TEs as a strong part of their passing offense are New England and Denver...and with Denver, it's very arguable if you would consider Dreessen and Tamme strong parts of that offense.(I'd say no personally)

Rather than copy the Patriots, I'd rather we establish our own identity based on our coaches and scheme. First and foremost, to me, that means getting the best possible playmaker that we can at that spot. Eifert isn't that guy.

I think Keenan Allen, Austin and Patterson do far more for our pass offense than Eifert does. And that's what's important to me.


yeah but there is no way Patterson falls to 22. From what the scouts are saying he might jump into the top ten. People are falling in love with his playmaking ability.

Austin I'd pass on because of his size(although I know you like him a lot) and Allen just doesn't wow me or many people.

I probably wouldn't take Eifert either. HOnestly I'd probably pass on taking a WR in round 1 and take an OL and S and then take the best one out of Hopkins, Bailey, Wheaton, Williams and Rogers at #45.
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DerekBrink


Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
DerekBrink wrote:


I don't get the can't block thing. I've watched tons of Eifert tape and he's a pretty decent run blocker. I've also read the opinion of about a dozen other scouts and most of them rated him as at least a serviceable run blocker. His pass blocking is a question but mostly because he wasn't asked to pass block much.


He's not at all. He's a bad blocker. He's just weak. Rarely gets push, doesn't have the strength to seal the edge nor is he particularly effective at wham blocks. He struggles to keep his feet when blocking and falls off his blocks far too quickly. He also has a tendency to duck his head. Simply put, the guy spends way too much time on the ground when blocking.

The best he can really do is stay engaged and keep his man from pushing him around. He's no threat at all as a blocker and I've even seen him struggle out on the edge with DBs at times.

Anyone who uses the phrase serviceable to describe Eifert's run blocking needs to watch some TEs who actually can run block.

And I WANT TO like Eifert because the kid is a dynamite pass catcher. He's fluid, has quick feet, strong hands, tracks the ball extremely well and can go up and get the football. He's excellent at it. He's like an oversized WR. But he's a truly bad blocker. Truly bad. Will not be an effective inline blocker in the NFL.

While I'd love to have the pass catching skills, using a 1st on a TE that can't block isn't high on my list. Personally, I think the best value for TEs in this draft is outside the 1st round.

If you want me to, I can show you the best I can the issues I have with him as a blocker using what youtube has to offer.(best I can do in terms of linking video of it)


fair enough, glad to see at least someone, besides scouts, sees what Eifert is as a pass catcher.

I'm just not sure Ertz is that much better of a blocker. His blocking has been blasted also and he doesn't offer the same pass catching skills. Sure he's got more raw tools but fluidness, tracking balls, quick feet and amazing hands aren't something you can really teach. Sure he may catch up in the route running department but I don't see anyway he ever becomes the same sort of pass catcher.

Also I think you can work with Eifert on his blocking. Kendricks wasn't thought of as a great blocker either and has actually been very solid as a blocker.

Either way I don't think we got TE in round 1 unless they really fall in love with Eifert pass catching ability. Ertz I don't feel would offer a different enough package from kendricks to spend a first round pick on.

I also would prefer a WR although I'm slowly starting to fall in love with Patterson but I don't think he'll last to our picks.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 46026
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DerekBrink wrote:


yeah but there is no way Patterson falls to 22. From what the scouts are saying he might jump into the top ten. People are falling in love with his playmaking ability.

Austin I'd pass on because of his size(although I know you like him a lot) and Allen just doesn't wow me or many people.

I probably wouldn't take Eifert either. HOnestly I'd probably pass on taking a WR in round 1 and take an OL and S and then take the best one out of Hopkins, Bailey, Wheaton, Williams and Rogers at #45.


I'd rather we focus on the best value pick. As for Allen, he doesn't really need to "wow" people with the game he plays. He gets open, he catches the ball and he picks up yards after catch. May not "wow" you but every team can use a guy like that. Like I've said, I think he compares to Michael Crabtree as a player...with his ceiling being Brandon Marshall. Neither are Calvin Johnson but one is a good WR and the other is a great one. Don't see a lot of down-side with Allen. You know what you're getting.

DerekBrink wrote:


fair enough, glad to see at least someone, besides scouts, sees what Eifert is as a pass catcher.

I'm just not sure Ertz is that much better of a blocker. His blocking has been blasted also and he doesn't offer the same pass catching skills. Sure he's got more raw tools but fluidness, tracking balls, quick feet and amazing hands aren't something you can really teach. Sure he may catch up in the route running department but I don't see anyway he ever becomes the same sort of pass catcher.

Also I think you can work with Eifert on his blocking. Kendricks wasn't thought of as a great blocker either and has actually been very solid as a blocker.

Either way I don't think we got TE in round 1 unless they really fall in love with Eifert pass catching ability. Ertz I don't feel would offer a different enough package from kendricks to spend a first round pick on.

I also would prefer a WR although I'm slowly starting to fall in love with Patterson but I don't think he'll last to our picks.


That was based on misconceptions. Kendricks was a very good blocker coming out. I specifically remember the Ohio State game where Wisconsin ran the ball like 50 times. Kendricks had two blocks in that game that sprung their HB for a TD. He also was routinely sealing and pushing around OSU's DEs.

I don't think there's much to be done with Eifert's blocking. He's not strong enough or physical enough for me to see much improvement. Plus, he doesn't really show much awareness or understanding when it comes to blocking and his assignments.
_________________
The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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DerekBrink


Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fair enough, we'll have to disagree but like I said I'd rather grab one of the top receivers. I do think he can improve his strength and become a better blocker but it's obviously not a guarantee.

You're also right that there are only a couple of teams who use the two TE sets to open up the passing game a ton and it makes far more sense to focus on grabbing one of the top WR's.

If we grab a TE it would make more sense in rounds 3-5.

I guess Allen would fit our team but I think Quick will fill that role for us. Our coaches seem to still think highly of Quick and still think he has a very bright future. I also think Pettis has the potential to be a bigger piece of the offense(especially in the red zone).

I'd honestly be happy with any of Allen, Patterson, Bailey, Austin, Williams, Hopkins, Wheaton, Hunter or Rogers(although adding another troubled player may be pushing it).

I think a young core of Quick, Pettis, Givens and Hopkins/Bailey/Austin/Williams/Wheaton/Allen/patterson would be very solid and a huge upgrade over what we've had recently.

I actually wouldn't mind Allen because I think we need a guy who can contribute right now and I think along with Bailey, Austin and Hopkins he's the most ready to do so.
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